What I mean is that if you have two seemingly opposite positions, we often consider that one is right and the other is wrong. I am just suggesting that it might be that both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong.
OSAS origins and comparison
- Thread starter randyk
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Maybe my question was not clear: In relation to losing the indwelling of the Spirit of God you said: "That cannot happen. It doesn't matter how, it cannot happen." I was wondering if there is a Scripture verse that clearly says that it cannot happen that you could lose the indwelling of the Spirit?
I guess I don't get it either: why does one need an "eternal security" that is based on the point in time of the new birth? If so, one must be sure that you got the new birth done right, and in most OSAS circles then you need to do well with good works, or the critics will say you were never born again to start with. The result winds up being you must keep your works in good order to have assurance of salvation.
I know I am saved because today I believe in Jesus Christ: his grace has done a wonderful work in my heart and I know I need Him, and I am hanging on to Him! Hallelujah! I love Him deeply!
Romans 4:11 speaks of Abraham's circumcision as a sign, a seal of righteousness that he had before he was circumcised. And Col 2:11-12 speaks of the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. And Eph 4:30 speaks of the Holy Spirit, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
lets start and talk about this New law... what is it please define it, give us details so we can all learn. I will expect a clear answer with the proper verse in the proper context and not a faulty interpretation.
Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
It sounds like you do need assurance? You've done the best you can to have that assurance?
I don't know abot OSAS circles where one needs to "do well with good works?" Most Calvinists would look to a self-realization that they've been selected from before the foundation of the world as God's Elect. The only "works" then that I can conceive of would be choosing to put faith in Christ by repenting from going one's own way.
Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Romans 8:38-39, Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:5.
Scripture clearly shows that God's Spirit can depart from a person:
“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him.” (1 Samuel 16:14, NKJV)
David also understood that the Spirit could be taken from him:
“Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:11, NKJV)
More importantly, Jesus warned His own disciples:
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5, NKJV)
And He continued:
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered.” (John 15:6, NKJV)
Jesus also said:
“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13, NKJV)
So I would not claim that one verse explicitly says, “A Christian can lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” But neither does Scripture say that this is absolutely impossible, regardless of what a person does. Jesus instead warns His followers to abide in Him, remain faithful, and endure to the end.
Hey 2
You are assuming that they were indwelt. In the OT, and specifically these who you quoted, David and Saul, had the Spirit upon them but not indwelling as a seal. The seal is the NT indwelling that places believers in Christ. The Spirit can leave someone who He is upon, but not indwelt.
1 Samuel 1:10 When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
1 Samuel 11:6 Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard this news, and his anger was greatly aroused.
1 Samuel 16:13-14 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him.
1 Samuel 19:23 So he went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on and prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah.
We went over this already. Who is he who endures. See post #32, post #25. Evidence.
1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
It does say that, as I have have shown in my last post, post # 90.
You have a lot of surmising going on there, randyk, posing as knowledge. If Adam and Eve were guaranteed endless life on the basis that God prophesied that the serpent who tempted them would be defeated, then we are all guaranteed endless life on the same basis. Do you believe everyone human will be saved on the basis that satan will be defeated? If not, then there is no guarantee in scripture that Adam and Eve would eventually inherit endless life. And your whole assertion that it is obvious that, if God loves us He would give us a guarantee of endless life no matter what, collapses.
If you believe that, then why are you claiming certainty that God has not provided satan and fallen angels any chance of redemption? It none of your concern what God chooses to do with the angels.
Jhn 21:21
Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
Jhn 21:22
Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
I am basing my openness to God possibly redeeming some fallen angels on the revelation of the superabounding grace of God toward sinners that we find presented in scripture. I’m not saying I’m definitely right. But I am saying that those who pontificate on the destiny of all fallen angels are overreaching and judging them before the time and before seeing all the evidence for and against each one. We will jusdge angels. But a judge shopuld not sit on the bench with his mind already made up before hearing the cases..
Yes. We should be trusting God because we believe His true nature is revealed in Jesus, not because we believe He has promised to pay us for our service with endless life. We can trust in Jesus quite readily out of love for Him, without believing in any such alleged “guarantee”.
"Posing as knowledge?" This is what the Scriptures say, along with common sense. If God provided Adam and Eve with animal skins to cover their nakedness, is it "surmising" to say that God was giving them a certain amount of assurance? Is it surmising if God put within the Garden the Tree of Life that God wanted to offer them the assurance of eternal life?
But I suppose if it was spelled out for you you'd find some way around it? Don't you *want* to have the assurance of Eternal Life, or is a "maybe" good enough for you?
Thats not my argument. My argument is that it is desirable to have the assurance of Eternal Life and that God *wishes* to give us that assurance. Obviously, we cannot have that assurance if we don't wish to have it.
Now that is pure surmising!
Tell me how to define the infinite, to put God in a box and make Him fit your intellect and I will explain the new law to you. Presumably you reject everything I've said previously. The problem is that I am talking about the spiritual and you are trying to use your intellect to understand it. The natural man does not comprehend the things of God.
Romans 8:2. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Berean version.
Law is a repeating principle. The law of gravity ensures that what goes up must come down. However, the law of gravity can be overcome by another law, the law of flight. A Swift can stay aloft for 10 months. So it is that the law of the Spirit of Life overcomes the Law (the commandments) that bring death.
The New covenant is the reverse of the Old. The Old covenant says you must do this in order to live. The New covenant tells us that Christ makes us alive without us doing anything but accept God's gift of eternal life in Christ. Real Christianity is new life in Christ, not a set of rules.
The OT law was given to prove to man that he could not keep the law. The law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. I've quoted that several times. The law of Moses no longer applies to believers.
Romans 8:2. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Berean version.
Law is a repeating principle. The law of gravity ensures that what goes up must come down. However, the law of gravity can be overcome by another law, the law of flight. A Swift can stay aloft for 10 months. So it is that the law of the Spirit of Life overcomes the Law (the commandments) that bring death.
The New covenant is the reverse of the Old. The Old covenant says you must do this in order to live. The New covenant tells us that Christ makes us alive without us doing anything but accept God's gift of eternal life in Christ. Real Christianity is new life in Christ, not a set of rules.
The OT law was given to prove to man that he could not keep the law. The law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. I've quoted that several times. The law of Moses no longer applies to believers.
It is certainly “surmising” on your part. God giving someone a garment is not in any way indicative that He has promised them that they will live forever.
Yes, you are surmising. You are assuming that eating once of the tree of Life would have given Adam and Eve immortality. The Hebrew verbs indicate that if Adam and Eve kept on putting their hand to the tree of Life and kept on eating of the fruit, then they would keep on living as long as they kept doing that and if they stopped intermittently eating the fruit they would not keep on living.
I now have assurance of aeonous life in the present. I do not have, nor do I need assurance in the present that I will have aeonous life forever into the future. IF I lose assurance in the present of having aeonous life now, I can reconcile with God through the blood of Jesus and know that I again have aeonous life now.
God has chosen to leave the answer to that question ambiguous. You are grasping at those verses that you can make sound like everlasting security, and are waving off those verses that sound the opposite. But truly, we do not need assurance of everlasting security to walk with Jesus. You are revealing that you are only willing to have a relationship with Jesus on a transactional level.
Transactional refers to interactions or relationships that are based on exchanges of goods, services, or benefits, often with a focus on short-term gains rather than long-term connections. In contrast to relational interactions, which emphasize deeper connections and mutual benefits, transactional relationships are typically more self-serving and temporary.
You appear to want a relationship with God that serves your own interests. We love Him because He first loved us. The scripture does not say that we love Him because He has promised neverending life to those who put their trust Him.
I wrote: "I am basing my openness to God possibly redeeming some fallen angels on the revelation of the superabounding grace of God toward sinners that we find presented in scripture.”
Which part do you disagree with? That God is revealed in scripture as superabounding in grace toward sinners? Or that satan is a sinner? That it is not God’s will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance? What do you object to in my suggestion? I admit I am surmising, because he scriptures are mo explicit. You are pretending you are not surmising, but your guesswork lacks biblical verification.
John says we can know.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. - 1 John 5:13