Is Salvation an event or a process?

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Watchman22 said:
I could test you on the spirit of christ, and the mind of Christ. Your AI missed the best happenings.

Would you submit to testing?
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Ok, i'm not sure what you mean by "AI" are you referring to a book in my list? But yeah, The spirit of Christ, What can we discuss?
 
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OMC said:
Ok, i'm not sure what you mean by "AI" are you referring to a book in my list? But yeah, The spirit of Christ, What can we discuss?
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I'm assuming alot of the information you've been giving is coming from AI .
 
OMC said:
Scripture does not teach that “belief” (mental assent) comes first and “faith” comes later.In the New Testament, belief (pisteuō) is the verb form of faith (pistis). They are not two different stages.
Jesus does not say, “First believe mentally, then later have faith.”
He says, “Whoever believes (pisteuō) has eternal life.” — John 3:16
“Believe in God; believe also in Me.” — John 14:1
“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” — Romans 4:3
In Greek:
pistis = faith (noun)
pisteuō = to faith / to trust / to rely (verb)
They are the same concept expressed in two grammatical forms.
A person’s faith journey begins when the Holy Spirit grants saving faith, which includes, belief, trust, reliance and allegiance.
Faith and belief are not sequential; they are inseparable aspects of the same Spirit‑given response to Christ.
“Belief is purely a mental process.”
Scripture explicitly denies this.
Biblical “belief” is:
relational (John 1:12)
volitional (John 7:17)
obedient (Romans 1:5)
transformational (2 Cor 5:17)
James says: “Even the demons believe—and tremble.” — James 2:19. This shows that mere mental belief is not saving belief
But saving belief is never “purely mental. ”It is trust, reliance, and submission. Biblical belief is not mental agreement but personal trust in Christ that results in obedience.
Regarding church traditions, Tradition may shape doctrine, but saving belief is created by the Spirit through the Word, not by church systems.
“Believing information about Jesus is not the objective.” I do not agree.
Scripture does require believing information about Jesus, His deity (John 8:24), His resurrection (Romans 10:9), His identity as Messiah (John 20:31)
John explicitly states: “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ… and that by believing you may have life.” — (John 20:31)
It is true that mere information is not enough (James 2:19).
We must believe the truth about Jesus AND entrust ourselves to Him. Saving faith includes correct belief but it is more than information.
Faith is not defined by works. Faith is demonstrated by works.
“We are justified by faith apart from works.” — Romans 3:28
“Faith without works is dead.” — James 2:17
Works prove faith; they do not define faith.
Faith is defined by trust in Christ and demonstrated by obedience.
Paul never mentions “conversion” in 1 Corinthians 13.
He says: “If I have all faith… but have not love, I am nothing.” — 1 Cor 13:2
This means, Faith without love is empty, not, “faith without conversion is inadequate.”
Paul is addressing spiritual gifts, not salvation.
Paul teaches that faith without love is worthless in practice, but he does not teach that faith without conversion exists or is inadequate.
Saving faith is not “mental belief.” It is Spirit‑produced (Gal 5:22). Love is also Spirit‑produced (Rom 5:5).
The Spirit produces both, faith, love, obedience.
Not human psychology.
Love for Christ flows from the Spirit’s work, not from mental belief or human effort.
Faith produces faithfulness, obedience, and cross‑bearing, but these are not the definition of faith.
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After a bunch of contradictory quotations, the reality is the same. You can "claim" saving faith because you believe the story of Jesus and you have "faith" it is true. If what you claim as "faith"is "fruitless" and undistinguishable by your life, you may have a form of what your denomination defines as "faith" but faith in all its realities is based on the fruits of it, not just the claim of it.
 
biblestudent78 said:
After a bunch of contradictory quotations, the reality is the same. You can "claim" saving faith because you believe the story of Jesus and you have "faith" it is true. If what you claim as "faith"is "fruitless" and undistinguishable by your life, you may have a form of what your denomination defines as "faith" but faith in all its realities is based on the fruits of it, not just the claim of it.
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You said, "After a bunch of contradictory quotations" To which quotations are you referring? Faith is not based on fruit. Faith produces fruit. Fruit verifies faith. Fruit does not define faith.
 
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OMC said:
ok
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I've put alot of my most precious understandings about faith and faithing on the table for you to discern. Exactly what i stand on as saving faith.

You said, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, is not biblical.... so as far as your concerned, I've received nothing yet.

Why would you allow someone you understand is not in Christ test you?
 
Watchman22 said:
I've put alot of my most precious understandings about faith and faithing on the table for you to discern. Exactly what i stand on as saving faith.

You said, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, is not biblical.... so as far as your concerned, I've received nothing yet.

Why would you allow someone you understand is not in Christ test you?
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I believe i have faithfully decerned and responded to your understandings and faith. I would suggest you go back and read carefully. Point out where i am wrong and i will respond in kind. I am simply sharing 56 years of research in the only way i can. Its not for me to convince you of anything. God makes the hearing ear, not me.
 
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OMC said:
I believe i have faithfully decerned and responded to your understandings and faith. I would suggest you go back and read carefully. Point out where i am wrong and i will respond in kind. I am simply sharing 56 years of research in the only way i can. Its not for me to convince you of anything. God makes the hearing ear, not me.
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That was the test.

Where your problem lies, is your dug in like an Alabama tick into the English translation of pisteuo. When it says believe, you take it as gospel, and it's not.

I'll leave it at that. There is no such thing as believing in what Jesus said and did to receive His Spirit....
 
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Watchman22 said:
That was the test.

Where your problem lies, is your dug in like an Alabama tick into the English translation of pisteuo. When it says believe, you take it as gospel, and it's not.

I'll leave it at that. There is no such thing as believing in what Jesus said and did to receive His Spirit....
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" your dug in like an Alabama tick into the English translation of pisteuo."
Please go back and read 131, 133, 135, and 139 and tell me how you think that?
"There is no such thing as believing in what Jesus said and did to receive His Spirit...."
You do not receive the Spirit because you believed; you believe because the Spirit has already acted.
 
OMC said:
" your dug in like an Alabama tick into the English translation of pisteuo."
Please go back and read 131, 133, 135, and 139 and tell me how you think that?
"There is no such thing as believing in what Jesus said and did to receive His Spirit...."
You do not receive the Spirit because you believed; you believe because the Spirit has already acted.
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Ya , I asked this before and you didn't reply.

You said, "you believe because the spirit has already acted."

What specific act does the spirit fulfill that results in ( a faithing response) for us, since you think we do nothing.

I refuse to use the mistranslated word believe for obvious reasons.
 
Watchman22 said:
Ya , I asked this before and you didn't reply.

You said, "you believe because the spirit has already acted."

What specific act does the spirit fulfill that results in ( a faithing response) for us, since you think we do nothing.

I refuse to use the mistranslated word believe for obvious reasons.
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The Spirit regenerates the heart — and that regeneration produces the "faithing" response. Everything else (hearing, believing, trusting, surrendering) flows from that single act. I never said we do nothing.
 
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biblestudent78 said:
Christianity rit large seems at odds with either answer. How do you see it?
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I'd say both. Blending God's word from different passages to make my point.

God tells us we are saved the moment we believe. We believe because God called us and put us in his grace, bestowed faith in us, sealed us as his own for eternity, and made us irrevocably Saved in him.

Now,I believe it is a process. We were in and of the world and its ways and words before Christ. Now,as his new creation we have to adapt to his leading us through his holy Spirit within ourselves.
Discernment. Learn what is God's guidance as opposed to our desires.

The leading and lessons last a lifetime.
Enjoy and be blessed on your journey.🤍🙏
 
OMC said:
The Spirit regenerates the heart — and that regeneration produces the "faithing" response. Everything else (hearing, believing, trusting, surrendering) flows from that single act. I never said we do nothing.
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You said,
"The spirit regenerates the heart?"

Keeping in mind, that heart does not belong to Him yet. Your essentially saying, that we're given the spirit of Christ to start the process?

The call of the Father, then He immediately puts the spirit of Christ in us, then as the result of that we have the faithing response?
 
OMC said:
The Spirit regenerates the heart — and that regeneration produces the "faithing" response. Everything else (hearing, believing, trusting, surrendering) flows from that single act. I never said we do nothing.
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What is it that we contribute to the faith response?
 
Watchman22 said:
You said,
"The spirit regenerates the heart?"

Keeping in mind, that heart does not belong to Him yet. Your essentially saying, that we're given the spirit of Christ to start the process?

The call of the Father, then He immediately puts the spirit of Christ in us, then as the result of that we have the faithing response?
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The Spirit does not dwell in you before you belong to God. But He does act on you before you belong to God — and that action produces the faithing response.

The Spirit’s external, regenerative work precedes faith.The Spirit’s internal, indwelling presence follows faith.

This distinction is essential.
 
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OMC said:
We contribute nothing to the origin of faith, but we fully participate in the exercise of faith.
In other words: we do not cause faith — we do faith.
That distinction is the entire key.
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OK, you said we do faith.

What do we do?
 
biblestudent78 said:
It has been my experience that we tend to "demonize" people who have traits, attitudes and or behaviors that make us feel threatened. Karl Marx for instance, gets linked to the rise of the corrupt, predatory Communism we know but he died long before it arose.

He fundamentally reshaped Western thought by shifting how intellectuals analyze history, economics, and social power, establishing a critical framework that links human consciousness directly to material and economic conditions. His core Contributions to Western thought is through what he termed Historical Materialism: Arguing that human societies and their cultural institutions are driven primarily by material and economic foundations rather than by ideals or pure philosophy.

Critique of Capitalism: Provided a profound economic critique in Das Kapital detailing how market structures generate systemic inequality, alienation, and the concentration of wealth.

Theory of Class Struggle: Popularized the view that history advances through conflicts between opposing socioeconomic groups—notably the rich and powerful and the working class.

He was badly mistaken about his belief that the rise of the working class to control the government would create a more just society. Followers later developed his utopian working class revolution ideas into the opposite result...a totalitarian state that impoverished and destroyed unity and workers rights based on coercion and corruption and an unelected dictator.

Communism started as was loosely based on The Communist Manifesto written by Marx and published in 1848. The first Communist government was founded in 1917 and Communism died a natural death in the Soviet Union in late 1991. Communism evolved to a form that Marx would not recognize in today's free market communists countries such as China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam where companies operate via entrepreneurship and with only lite control from the communist party.

The on the ground difference between these communist countries and western democracies is that in the west the political power is established by the people who vote for all level of government. In China for instance, there are multiple levels of voting but not directly for the Chairman of the Communist Party or other high party positions. The communist party in China has evolved very locally elected government positions at the Township, county, village and neighborhood levels. They have substantial power, money and responsibility. For many rural Chinese, these positions are the one most important to their day to day life.
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Like most people, Marx was flawed, not a demon in the flesh or a visionary who would introduce utopia. While he railed against money as being evil, he sponged off his family. He put part of a bequest into speculative stocks. It's easy to come up with concepts but reality often gets in the way. Communism, socialism and capitalism all are flawed. At least capitalism gives people the right to vote.

God's way is neither communist, socialist or capitalist. The first city was built by the murderer Cain. Cities are only necessary because of man's sinful nature. Cities are oppressive.
 
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