Bible newcomer perplexed

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searchfortruth

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I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
 
searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I can answer your questions satisfactorily; however, I'm glad you're reading the Bible. It seems you're learning some truths that have made you question your preconceived notions. All I can say is keep reading.

Welcome to the forums, glad you're here.
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance
Click to expand...

1. Why the cross?​

The Bible never shows the Father forcing the Son.
Jesus says: “I lay down my life of my own accord.”
So the cross is not God sacrificing someone else — it is God sacrificing Himself.
Christianity’s claim is that Jesus is God in human flesh, choosing to absorb human evil rather than abandon humanity to it.
The cross is not cruelty. It is self‑giving love.

2. Why condemnation for unbelief?​

Christianity does not teach “believe or be tortured.”
It teaches:
Life is found in union with God.
Loss is separation from God.
Hell is not God inflicting pain on people who “weren’t convinced.”
It is the tragic result of rejecting the only source of life.
It’s relational, not arbitrary.

3. What about people who never saw Jesus or heard Him?​

Paul says God judges people based on the light they actually had (Romans 2:12–16).
God is not unfair. He does not condemn people for what they never knew.

4. Why no new messenger after Jesus?​

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to continue His work.
The message is complete; the Spirit continues it.

5. Is Christianity kind and forgiving?​

Yes — but Scripture is honest about evil and justice.
The center of Christianity is: God enters the world, suffers with us, dies for us, and rises to heal us.
It is not a religion of fear. It is a rescue mission.
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.
Click to expand...
Welcome to CC! We're glad to have you with us, and we're happy to answer questions.

searchfortruth said:
This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?
Click to expand...
There isn't anyone else who is "divine". God Himself came. The Bible states that Jesus died once for all; if another "divine" messenger came, then Jesus' death could be called inadequate.

By the way, the word "divine" can be a bit misleading. It can mean capital-G "God" specifically, or it can mean "spiritual entities including but not limited to capital-G God". Above, I'm using the first sense.
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
You have asked good questions that many have asked before. I'm 75, saved just before my 21st birthday. I was not raised a Christian. My mother was nominally Anglican but never went to church. My atheist father would not permit it.

The problem of humanity is not intellectual. It is a heart problem. Some people saw the miracles of Jesus, saw Him set people free of sicknesses and even raise the dead. He did not put a foot wrong. But the religious of the day saw their livelihood, power and prestige threatened and so they had Jesus crucified. So the only truly innocent man was put to death by the wicked.

Reading one part of the Bible can lead to misunderstanding. For example, if you read the gospel of John, you will find that Lord Jesus willingly gave up His life to save those who would receive Him - including you. God's justice requires that the price of mankind's evil be paid. "The wages of sin is death" as you've likely read. Imagine going to court and being fined a billion dollars. You realise that you can never pay that amount. Not only that, interest piles up while the debt is unpaid. So only a multi billionaire could pay the debt. The debt we owe God is sin, the penalty is death. We need someone to pay, but who? Jesus, the perfect man who never sinned, gave His life that we could go free.

I see a different point of view to many. I have a son and a daughter. I did not see them for 15 years. I did not know where they lived. For a time, it tore me apart. Can you imagine asking your son to die for people who hate you and reject you? I can't. But that's what God did.

God's justice must be served, but His love was shown by allowing His Son to die in our place. But Jesus did not stay dead. He rose again and now rules and reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He longs still to save anyone who will repent of their wicked ways and turn to Him in faith.

Damnation sounds severe and it is. However, people choose to believe or not. Jesus told us why. Most people love their sin and don't want to change. So they choose to reject God's love and choose instead to live for themselves. Worse still, many blame God for the state of the world even while rejecting God's answer.

So those who reject Christ have no choice but to live with the consequences. Don't be one of them. Once a person accepts Christ, he becomes much more than a forgiven sinner. He/she receives new life that only God can give. They receive a new heart that is not sinful. Believers are not perfect and can still be wrong and do wrong things. But as they come to know Jesus better, their lives will change for the better. I'm not the same person as I was 54 years ago. And everyone should be thankful for that!
​
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert mFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Click to expand...

searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
"God GAVE", as in giving a gift. Jesus paid the death penalty for our sins so we might have eternal life. This was an act of merciful God not a selfish God.

2nd - The bible does not teach an eternally burning hell for the wicked. The wages of sin is death not eternal life.
Malachi chapter 4 (I would have to look up the verses) tells us the righteous will tread (walk) upon the wicked. They will be ashes under our feet.
The doctrine of an eternal soul is pagan in origin. It was Satan's first lie given to Eve "Ye shall not surely die".
 
searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...

Better late than never; just don't be late to the pearly gate!
You are already a believer in something, but what faith is better than Christianity?

Regarding problematic statements in Scripture, my hermeneutic begins as follows:

Two NT teachings may be deemed key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.

The writer of Heb. 12:4-11 indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as Josh. 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

Regarding hell, realize the following:

The issue of hell is frequently cited as constituting a stumbling-block to belief in the NT God by some people. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus,
for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God created the option of evil.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2Cor. 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (Gal. 6:7-9) or hell.

Therefore, evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice.

It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

Hope this helps. :love:
 
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The idea of eternal conscious torment (ECT) so often used to threaten people may not actually be true. The word translated "eternal" is aonis in the Greek and simply means an "age" which can be as short as a lifetime. In Romans eternal life is a gift from God. One can ask why that gift would be given to the unsaved who are often said to "perish".

Many people in Christian circles insist on ECT as well as advocate various forms of works salvation and conduct. As you read through the bible and ask questions, you will find various answers that also need to be evaluated.

The trick to faith is finding something you discover to be true and trusting in it. I would suggest going through the bible with a highlighter so that you can more easily come back to an intriguing verse.

God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Even thought we cannot understand how painful what Jesus endured was (being made sin who knew no sin (2Cor 5:21), Jesus did this willingly;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The mind of Christ is one that is focused on others out of the selflessness of love. The biblical definition of love (1Cor 13:4-7) is essentially selflessness. Christian maturity is found in Christ-likeness (Eph 4:13). This is achieved by choosing to let go of the selfishness of the flesh (Gal 5:16-21)

Here are some links that might be helpful;

Christian Pioneer - Christianity 101

Christian Pioneer - Answers to questions about Christianity
christianpioneer.com

Christian Pioneer - If You Were God

Christian Pioneer - If You Were God
christianpioneer.com

Christian Pioneer - Current blog

Christian Pioneer - Answers to questions about Christianity
christianpioneer.com
 
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timf said:
The idea of eternal conscious torment (ECT) so often used to threaten people may not actually be true. The word translated "eternal" is aonis in the Greek and simply means an "age" which can be as short as a lifetime. In Romans eternal life is a gift from God. One can ask why that gift would be given to the unsaved who are often said to "perish".

Many people in Christian circles insist on ECT as well as advocate various forms of works salvation and conduct. As you read through the bible and ask questions, you will find various answers that also need to be evaluated.

The trick to faith is finding something you discover to be true and trusting in it. I would suggest going through the bible with a highlighter so that you can more easily come back to an intriguing verse.

God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Even thought we cannot understand how painful what Jesus endured was (being made sin who knew no sin (2Cor 5:21), Jesus did this willingly;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The mind of Christ is one that is focused on others out of the selflessness of love. The biblical definition of love (1Cor 13:4-7) is essentially selflessness. Christian maturity is found in Christ-likeness (Eph 4:13). This is achieved by choosing to let go of the selfishness of the flesh (Gal 5:16-21)
Click to expand...
your whole argument about aionios, “eternal,” “perish,” and ECT collapses the moment you let Scripture define its own terms instead of importing English assumptions.
αἰώνιος Transliteration: aionios Root: αἰών (aion) = “age”

Meaning in Koine Greek: “pertaining to the age to come; eternal.”
This is not speculation — this is how Greek lexicons define it.
  • Aionios = belonging to the age to come, not “temporary.”
  • “Perish” = ruin, not “cease to exist.”
  • Jesus teaches conscious post‑mortem punishment.
  • Matthew 25:46 links eternal life and eternal punishment with the same word.
  • Annihilation contradicts Jesus, Paul, Hebrews, and Revelation.
  • The cross only makes sense if judgment is real, not extinction.
 
timf said:
The idea of eternal conscious torment (ECT) so often used to threaten people may not actually be true. The word translated "eternal" is aonis in the Greek and simply means an "age" which can be as short as a lifetime. In Romans eternal life is a gift from God. One can ask why that gift would be given to the unsaved who are often said to "perish".

Many people in Christian circles insist on ECT as well as advocate various forms of works salvation and conduct. As you read through the bible and ask questions, you will find various answers that also need to be evaluated.

The trick to faith is finding something you discover to be true and trusting in it. I would suggest going through the bible with a highlighter so that you can more easily come back to an intriguing verse.

God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Even thought we cannot understand how painful what Jesus endured was (being made sin who knew no sin (2Cor 5:21), Jesus did this willingly;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The mind of Christ is one that is focused on others out of the selflessness of love. The biblical definition of love (1Cor 13:4-7) is essentially selflessness. Christian maturity is found in Christ-likeness (Eph 4:13). This is achieved by choosing to let go of the selfishness of the flesh (Gal 5:16-21)

Here are some links that might be helpful;

Christian Pioneer - Christianity 101

Christian Pioneer - Answers to questions about Christianity
christianpioneer.com

Christian Pioneer - If You Were God

Christian Pioneer - If You Were God
christianpioneer.com

Christian Pioneer - Current blog

Christian Pioneer - Answers to questions about Christianity
christianpioneer.com
Click to expand...

Regarding God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

We should understand that the triune God sacrificed Himself, because He so loved sinful humanity/His enemies
(John 3:16, Rom. 5:6-8).
 
OMC said:
your whole argument about aionios, “eternal,” “perish,” and ECT collapses the moment you let Scripture define its own terms instead of importing English assumptions.
αἰώνιος Transliteration: aionios Root: αἰών (aion) = “age”

Meaning in Koine Greek: “pertaining to the age to come; eternal.”
This is not speculation — this is how Greek lexicons define it.
  • Aionios = belonging to the age to come, not “temporary.”
  • “Perish” = ruin, not “cease to exist.”
  • Jesus teaches conscious post‑mortem punishment.
  • Matthew 25:46 links eternal life and eternal punishment with the same word.
  • Annihilation contradicts Jesus, Paul, Hebrews, and Revelation.
  • The cross only makes sense if judgment is real, not extinction.
Click to expand...
The dead are in a state of:

Perpetual sleep, do not awake - Jer 51:57
Have no thoughts - Psa 146:4
Have no emotions, no knowledge, no wisdom - Ecc 9:5-6 & 10
Cannot praise God - Isa 33:18
King David has yet to ascend into heaven - Acts 2:29&34
Paul knew he would have to wait in the grave until Jesus comes to receive his crown - II Tim 4:6-8
So did Job - Job 19:26

This is not just my opinion. It's what the bible says in plain, simple words a child can understand. There are many more such scriptures in the bible.

I Cor 15:12-19 shows there is no hope of salvation if there is not a resurrection from the grave.

Eternal life with Jesus doesn't start until AFTER the dead are raised when He comes.

Note also: Gen 2:7 the words "living soul" from the original Hebrew are "ḥay nep̄eš" which means "living being" or "living creature" it is the same phrase in Gen 1:21 and 24 translated as "living creature" when God made the animals.
Read also Eccl 3:19-20
Then there is Rev 16:3 "living soul" again, this time in Greek - "zaō psychē" also meaning "living being"

The punishment/wages of sin in Matt 25:46 is eternal death NOT eternal life or eternal suffering in hellfire....

But then again, you don't believe the wicked are resurrected in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to face judgement or that they will be ashes under the soles of our feet do you?

I gave you the references before (inside less than a few hours actually) you have ignored them.
Remind me next time when I go to the pet store to get me a parrot. They are more entertaining....
 
Davidstarr said:
The dead are in a state of:

Perpetual sleep, do not awake - Jer 51:57
Have no thoughts - Psa 146:4
Have no emotions, no knowledge, no wisdom - Ecc 9:5-6 & 10
Cannot praise God - Isa 33:18
King David has yet to ascend into heaven - Acts 2:29&34
Paul knew he would have to wait in the grave until Jesus comes to receive his crown - II Tim 4:6-8
So did Job - Job 19:26

This is not just my opinion. It's what the bible says in plain, simple words a child can understand. There are many more such scriptures in the bible.

I Cor 15:12-19 shows there is no hope of salvation if there is not a resurrection from the grave.

Eternal life with Jesus doesn't start until AFTER the dead are raised when He comes.

Note also: Gen 2:7 the words "living soul" from the original Hebrew are "ḥay nep̄eš" which means "living being" or "living creature" it is the same phrase in Gen 1:21 and 24 translated as "living creature" when God made the animals.
Read also Eccl 3:19-20
Then there is Rev 16:3 "living soul" again, this time in Greek - "zaō psychē" also meaning "living being"

The punishment/wages of sin in Matt 25:46 is eternal death NOT eternal life or eternal suffering in hellfire....

But then again, you don't believe the wicked are resurrected in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to face judgement or that they will be ashes under the soles of our feet do you?

I gave you the references before (inside less than a few hours actually) you have ignored them.
Remind me next time when I go to the pet store to get me a parrot. They are more entertaining..
Click to expand...
everything you listed is true about the dead, but none of it supports annihilation or disproves resurrection + judgment + conscious punishment
 
OMC said:
everything you listed is true about the dead, but none of it supports annihilation or disproves resurrection + judgment + conscious punishment
Click to expand...
I have said nothing to try to disprove resurrection or judgement or conscious punishment. I believe those things will happen. I have posted them. above
Eventually though the wicked will cease to exist, they will be ashes under our feet, it will be as though they had never existed.
Eternally DEAD not eternally burning
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
I will go through your post a little at a time but for now the eternal damnation portion I will respond to immediately.

Everyone believes in something even if it is nothing. And God created the conditions of life based upon believing in Him or something else. For the most part that's a personal choice made consciously by weighing out facts and information. But eventually every person will believe in something. Whether it's another belief deity, system, Dogma, to Scientific Methods and Theories. From thinking life is an accident to there's a purpose and reason. Eventually everyone will have to settle on something that they ultimately choose.

If those choices deal with denying God then that falls into the design God made. Those people, who made their choice will spend eternity based upon that choice.
 
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Davidstarr said:
The dead are in a state of:

Perpetual sleep, do not awake - Jer 51:57
Have no thoughts - Psa 146:4
Have no emotions, no knowledge, no wisdom - Ecc 9:5-6 & 10
Cannot praise God - Isa 33:18
King David has yet to ascend into heaven - Acts 2:29&34
Paul knew he would have to wait in the grave until Jesus comes to receive his crown - II Tim 4:6-8
So did Job - Job 19:26

This is not just my opinion. It's what the bible says in plain, simple words a child can understand. There are many more such scriptures in the bible.

I Cor 15:12-19 shows there is no hope of salvation if there is not a resurrection from the grave.

Eternal life with Jesus doesn't start until AFTER the dead are raised when He comes.

Note also: Gen 2:7 the words "living soul" from the original Hebrew are "ḥay nep̄eš" which means "living being" or "living creature" it is the same phrase in Gen 1:21 and 24 translated as "living creature" when God made the animals.
Read also Eccl 3:19-20
Then there is Rev 16:3 "living soul" again, this time in Greek - "zaō psychē" also meaning "living being"

The punishment/wages of sin in Matt 25:46 is eternal death NOT eternal life or eternal suffering in hellfire....

But then again, you don't believe the wicked are resurrected in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to face judgement or that they will be ashes under the soles of our feet do you?

I gave you the references before (inside less than a few hours actually) you have ignored them.
Remind me next time when I go to the pet store to get me a parrot. They are more entertaining....
Click to expand...
These are a few points I thought may be of interest.

The destination and experience of the faithful after death appear to differ before and after Jesus’ resurrection, although Scripture does not fully explain the nature or extent of that difference.

Matthew 27:52–53 describes the raising of “many bodies of the saints” and their appearance in Jerusalem after Jesus’ resurrection. This event demonstrates Christ’s victory over death and may be consistent with a change in the condition or destination of departed saints.

Scripture provides evidence of conscious existence among the faithful before Christ’s resurrection; ie, Samuel (1 Sam. 28:11–19), Moses (Luke 9:28–31), Lazarus and the rich man *Luke 16:19–31). While Paul explicitly expresses the expectation of being with Christ after death. The ultimate hope of both Old Testament and New Testament saints is the completion of God’s saving work in the bodily resurrection.

As to Acts 2:29–35, the scripture establishes that David died, was buried, and had not ascended into heaven as the risen and exalted Messiah had. Peter does not describe David’s conscious experience after death or explicitly identify the location of his spirit at that moment. Peter's purpose was to show that Jesus fulfills David’s prophecy concerning the Messiah’s resurrection and exaltation.

Similarly, 2 Timothy 4:6–8 does not establish that Paul would remain unconscious in the grave until Christ’s return. Paul anticipates receiving his crown “at that day,” along with all who love Christ’s appearing. The passage concerns his completed ministry and future reward. Being in Christ’s presence and receiving a crown at His appearing are distinct expectations, and the future timing of the reward does not rule out conscious fellowship with Him before that day.

Paul’s expectation is more directly expressed in these passages:
  • Philippians 1:23: His desire “to depart, and to be with Christ.”
  • 2 Corinthians 5:8: His willingness to be “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.”
  • 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17: His teaching concerning the future resurrection of believers and their gathering to Christ.
When the accounts are taken together, they support the understanding that believers can be with Christ after death while still awaiting bodily resurrection and their final reward.
 
searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks for any helpful guidance.
Click to expand...
Hello searchfortruth,

The first thing I see after reading your thread is your comment: "I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think Christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world."

I appreciate your honesty. There are few issues with your approach. It seem you're coming to the "Bible" and Christianity from a historical narrative and apprehensive understanding or secular analysis.

You do not understand the god of the bible and prejudge God by His action you have read in the bible. One can do that yet, the God of the bible is just, and answers to no man or women for that matter.
The Gospel message to all is NOT condemnation but love. John 3 :16 the most quoted and memorized verse in the bible.
Verses 17 to 18 are important too.


Key Themes of John 3:16-18​

This passage is foundational in Christian theology regarding salvation.


16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

IN this verse we read God loved the world and gave his only Son for it. It was Gods Son who took on the harsh punishment you seen in the Bible so we would not have to. He did it to remove the judgment of sin that we have done that offend the God of the Bible.

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

This verse states, the reason why God sent His Son into the world was not to Condemn it, but to save it. If those in the world would believe on Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins on the cross.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who accept Jesus death for them on the Cross will be saved from all condemnation of judgment. those who do not already have that judgment on them.

  • God's Love — God demonstrated His love by giving His only Son for humanity's salvation.
  • Eternal Life — Belief in Jesus leads to eternal life, a central promise of Christianity.
  • Purpose of Jesus — Jesus was sent not to condemn the world, but to save it.
  • Condemnation — Those who do not believe are already condemned, emphasizing the necessity of faith.
If you sent your only Child to save people you did not know, who did not deserve it, but they would be saved if they followed your only child. Yet they choose not to accept the salvation he provided and he was the only way, but those said no and choose a different way, is a great insult to the one who gave His child to save those who were already condemned. But they rejected it.

That is the condemnation. That salvation came, yet people reject it.
 
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^ Gospel of John is often recommended as a great place to start reading the Bible.
This movie is a word-for-Word portrayal of John's gospel. You may enjoy it!

Also, please check out the Alpha Course.




There are 10 videos total, answering a lot of questions about faith, Christianity historically and in the modern
world, the estate of man, and God's design for humans. I hope you watch them. They could benefit you greatly .:)
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?

Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.

Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.

This 'damnation-message of God' issue begs the question as to why God has not sent any other divine messenger to earth in the 2000 years since Jesus' ascendance. Surely that would convert millions to the true path?

Many thanks
Click to expand...
God is loving, merciful, compassionate and forgiving, BUT… God is also JUST! The definition of justice is:

“The process or result of using LAWS to fairly judge cases, redress wrongs, and punish crimes.”

Deuteronomy 32:4, “All His ways are JUST. A faithful God who does no wrong. Upright and JUST is He.”

Psalms 89:14, “Righteousness and JUSTICE are the foundation of your throne. Love and faithfulness go before you.”

Isaiah 30:18, “For the Lord is a God of JUSTICE.”

Isaiah 61:8, “I the Lord love Justice.”

Colossians 3:25, “Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs and there is no favoritism with God.”

Hebrews 8:10, “God is not UNJUST; He will not forget your work and the love you have shown Him.”

God is our creator. He made us and He has given us a set of laws for right and wrong. Just like our government has civil laws that must be in place for society or we would have utter chaos. And just as a person who has committed heinous crimes should be held accountable for those crimes and punished, so it is with “spiritual” laws as well. To let a person in our civil government be free to committ as many and as much harm and destruction as he pleases with no consequences would not be just or fair. So it is with God. He is a God of justice. God holds people accountable to His laws of right and wrong.

So glad you are reading the Bible. If you want to know about God—His love, and His justice, read the stories in the Old Testament. If you want to know about Jesus, read the New Testament. You can still find God in all of it but the New is more about the Messiah.

2 Timothy 2:15 encourages us to “rightly DIVIDE the word of God.” There are 2 different laws discussed in the New Testament. 1) the Jewish law of the Old testament and 2) the new Law of Christ in the New Testament. It can be very confusing if you do not know which law is being discussed or applied as you read through the New Testament. Such scriptures as Hebrews 9: 16-17 are helpful to know when the New Law of Christ came into effect and Colossians 2:12-16. Hebrews 7:12 says that God changed the law from the Old law of Moses to the New Law of Christ ( faith). The entire book of Hebrews is about how the new law of Christ is far superior to the old Law of Moses ( given by Moses). Many religious people do not believe this, so I would encourage you to be guided by what the scriptures say, rather than listening to men. I hope this helps. God bless you in your study.
 
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searchfortruth said:
I''m a newcomer to the bible, which I'm reading for the first time, aged 65. I started the New Testament and am now through to reading Romans. I'm not yet a believer, but think christianity may be the true counter to the terrible evil I see around me in the world.

Without wanting to offend anyone here, on several occasions I've felt that what I read does not seem kindly, generous or forgiving (my preconceived notion of christianity). I may be misinterpreting what I read; knowledgeable believers here may be able to help me better understand the text.

Firstly in Romans, from my understanding, it explains that God demanded that His own son Jesus die. Yes, it was for the sins of humanity in order that they could be born again, and yes, Jesus would be resurrected...but He still demanded that Jesus undergo an extremely painful death for what could be seen as a project of his father's (i.e. saving humanity). I find it troubling that the compassionate God would sacrifice his own son as a means of achieving his ends. How can this be explained?
Click to expand...
Since you are reading through Romans, we can look at the text together. In Chapter 3. Paul argues that the cross was a demonstration of God's righteousness, How did this take place? First of all, we should read Romans in light of the Gospels, where Jesus said "I have the power to lay down my life and I have the power to raise it up again." (quoting from memory) It is clear from the Gospels that Jesus went to the cross voluntarily.

In verse 25 Paul says, "
"3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith."]

In the ancient world, a **propitiation** was a sacrifice or poured‑out offering meant to **mollify the wrath of a god**—not a payment, not a transaction, but an act intended to quiet divine anger and restore favor. Paul draws on that cultural backdrop when he speaks of Christ as the **hilastērion**. He is invoking the familiar ancient pattern: wrath is real, offense is real, and a god’s displeasure must be addressed. But Paul will show that God Himself provides the propitiation, not humans. The Cross is not humanity trying to soothe an angry deity; it is God offering the means by which His own righteous wrath is quieted and His favor extended.

God was not pleased with the **death** of His Son in isolation, as though the crucifixion itself were the thing that delighted Him. What pleased the Father was the **whole arc** of His Son’s obedient mission—His death, His burial, His resurrection, and His ascension. That complete sequence is the public demonstration of God’s justice. In the death of an innocent man, God shows that He will not let injustice stand; in the resurrection, He shows that He can **undo** death itself; and in the ascension, He shows that He is both **able** and **willing** to raise His Son to rule as King in His own kingdom. The Father delights in the obedience that carried Jesus through every stage of that story, and He displays His justice by overturning the world’s verdict and enthroning His Son.



searchfortruth said:
Secondly, a couple of points related to the issue of eternal damnation. Take Luke 16:16. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but "anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned". This condemnation of the non-believer to eternal damnation seems terribly harsh.
Click to expand...
Again we turn to the opening chapter of Romans to discover that "unbelief" is not the same thing as "disbelief". Paul argues from the premise that human kind already knew about God's existience, but they chose to suppress that knowledge and pretend he he doesn't. Punishment is not directed at people who just don't understand or who are mistaken or can't wrap their mind around it. Punishment is directed at people who do get it, they do understand, they can wrap their mind around it and yet, they suppress what they know to be true. This is the height of rebellion, to deny our own existence.


searchfortruth said:
Wouldn't giving non-believers no afterlife at all be more appropriate than giving them eternal torture in hell? After all, if people hear the message but don't believe, isn't it partly what we'd call a "communication problem": the message was not convincing enough?

Isn't this especially true for all those who lived after Jesus' life - they never saw the miracles or heard the man Jesus speak? They only have second hand accounts passed down the generations (open to being rewritten, mistranslated etc.). Damnation is otherwise reserved for real evil-doers (murderers etc), whereas arguably unbelievers have strayed by omission rather than by a positive act.
Click to expand...
Good questions. And we go back to the first chapter of Romans. God is not going to punish people who "didn't know Jesus. he is going to punish those who DID know about Jesus but refused to acknowledge him. There might be a tribe living in the back woods who never found out about Jesus. That's okey. We aren't judged based on what we don't know. God sees the heart, He knows who would believe in Jesus if they had heard about him.
 
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Wansvic said:
These are a few points I thought may be of interest.

The destination and experience of the faithful after death appear to differ before and after Jesus’ resurrection, although Scripture does not fully explain the nature or extent of that difference.

Matthew 27:52–53 describes the raising of “many bodies of the saints” and their appearance in Jerusalem after Jesus’ resurrection. This event demonstrates Christ’s victory over death and may be consistent with a change in the condition or destination of departed saints.

Scripture provides evidence of conscious existence among the faithful before Christ’s resurrection; ie, Samuel (1 Sam. 28:11–19), Moses (Luke 9:28–31), Lazarus and the rich man *Luke 16:19–31). While Paul explicitly expresses the expectation of being with Christ after death. The ultimate hope of both Old Testament and New Testament saints is the completion of God’s saving work in the bodily resurrection.

As to Acts 2:29–35, the scripture establishes that David died, was buried, and had not ascended into heaven as the risen and exalted Messiah had. Peter does not describe David’s conscious experience after death or explicitly identify the location of his spirit at that moment. Peter's purpose was to show that Jesus fulfills David’s prophecy concerning the Messiah’s resurrection and exaltation.

Similarly, 2 Timothy 4:6–8 does not establish that Paul would remain unconscious in the grave until Christ’s return. Paul anticipates receiving his crown “at that day,” along with all who love Christ’s appearing. The passage concerns his completed ministry and future reward. Being in Christ’s presence and receiving a crown at His appearing are distinct expectations, and the future timing of the reward does not rule out conscious fellowship with Him before that day.

Paul’s expectation is more directly expressed in these passages:
  • Philippians 1:23: His desire “to depart, and to be with Christ.”
  • 2 Corinthians 5:8: His willingness to be “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.”
  • 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17: His teaching concerning the future resurrection of believers and their gathering to Christ.
When the accounts are taken together, they support the understanding that believers can be with Christ after death while still awaiting bodily resurrection and their final reward.
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There are several other texts in scripture that show death to be a complete state of non existence. The bible calls it sleeping in the dust/ground.

What you have just said is completely contrary to them AND the texts I gave above.

I tend to believe what the bible says rather than someone else's interpretation of what the bible says.

Was Paul dead when he told the early Christians (twice actually) that he was with them in spirit while not being actually physically present in Col 2:5 and I Cor 5:3?
Rather he was saying not physically present with them at those times (in Colossi and Corinth) but in his spirit (AKA heart, desires, thoughts).

In those texts you gave above he IS NOT saying he wishes he was dead so he could go on to be with the Lord. That creates contradictions with the rest of scripture. He DESIRES to be with the Lord but right now he is physically still on earth.

Yes some people were raised from the grave when Jesus was. That was a physical resurrection. They were seen by many. Just as Jesus' resurrection was a physical resurrection.
 
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