Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

frederickdoc said:

Good try read better that was an example nothing to question yes turned around read it Again. I try this again anyway .open the eyes read very carefully and if you say anything stick to this layout please

• The Hebrew order: "...וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ..."
• Literal Translation: "...and they shall look upon me [Aleph-Taw] whom they have pierced..."

Why This is Profound

1. God is Speaking: In the context of Zechariah 12, the person speaking is Yahweh (the LORD God Almighty). He says they will look upon Me (God) whom they pierced. Since God is a spirit and cannot be physically stabbed, this points directly to God taking on human flesh.
2. The Signature at the Wound: The silent Aleph-Taw—the Beginning and the End—sits perfectly in the sentence right between the words "look upon me" and "whom they have pierced." It acts like a divine marker identifying exactly who is on that cross.
3. The New Testament Fulfillment

The Apostle John (the very Same author of John 8 was standing at the foot of the cross when Jesus was crucified. He watched a Roman soldier plunge a spear into Jesus's side.
Decades later, when John wrote his Gospel, he explicitly quoted this exact verse from Zechariah to prove Jesus was the Messiah:


John recognized that the pierced man on the cross was the walking Aleph-Taw, the ultimate second witness sent from heaven. Now we show you How John fuced a mistake in the translation of hebrew using Zachariah 12
The Greek translation of Zechariah 12:10 depends entirely on whether you look at the ancient Greek Septuagint (LXX) translated before Christ, or the New Testament Greek written by the Apostle John.
There is a fascinating linguistic shift between the two.

1. The Ancient Greek Septuagint (LXX)
When Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek around 200–300 BC, they struggled with the phrase "whom they have pierced" because the Hebrew text implies that Yahweh Himself was physically stabbed. To make sense of it, they translated the Hebrew word for pierced (daqar) metaphorically as "mocked" or "treated spitefully":

• The Greek Text: ...καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρός με ἀνθ’ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο...
• English Translation: "...and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me..."
• The Root Word: The Greek verb used is katorcheomai (κατορχέομαι), which literally means "to dance in triumph over" or "insult
• Because of this specific translation choice, the silent Hebrew Aleph-Taw (את) completely disappears in the Septuagint Greek. It is replaced by standard Greek grammar particles meaning "because of" or "on account of" (anth' hon).
  
  2. The New Testament Greek (John 19:37)
  The Apostle John was standing right at the cross when Jesus was stabbed. He knew the Greek Septuagint said "mocked," but he looked at Jesus's physical body and realized the original Hebrew text ("pierced") was being literally fulfilled.
  When John writes his Gospel in Greek, he bypasses the Septuaginttranslation and translates the Hebrew directly into Greek himself:
  • The New Testament Greek: Ὄψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν.
  • English Translation: "They shall look on him whom they pierced." — John 19:37
  • The Root Word: John uses the precise Greek word ekkenteo (ἐκκεντέω), which means to pierce through, stab, or plunge a weapon into someone.
• 
  Summary: The "Missing Signature" Found
  In the standard Greek Old Testament, the verse focuses on Israel mocking God. But when the New Testament unlocks the verse, it reveals the literal piercing of the Son. John shows that Jesus is the living translation of the verse—restoring the physical wound where the Aleph-Taw sits in the Hebrew text

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Zechariah 12:10 is a messianic prophecy, and John 19:37 rightly identifies Jesus as its fulfillment, but the Hebrew particle אֵת (Aleph‑Taw) in “וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָרוּ” is not a divine signature; it is the standard Hebrew direct‑object marker, used thousands of times with no theological meaning.
The profundity of the verse comes not from אֵת but from the grammar of “look upon Me whom they pierced,” where Yahweh is the speaker — a textual phenomenon that anticipates the incarnation.
The Septuagint translators softened “pierced” into “mocked” (κατωρχήσαντο) because they struggled with the idea of Yahweh being physically stabbed, but John, writing under inspiration and as an eyewitness, restores the literal sense using ἐξεκέντησαν (“pierced”). Thus the contrast between the LXX and John is real, but it is not about a missing Aleph‑Taw; it is about John faithfully translating the Hebrew where the LXX paraphrased. The theological weight rests entirely on the identity of the pierced One — Yahweh in the flesh — not on the presence of אֵת.

tttallison said:

What do you understand to be occurring in Revelation chapter nineteen? Is this the harvest of the wheat and tares?

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Rev 19 has the scene in heaven.

What harvest are you seeing un rev 19?
Are you meaning rev 14?

OMC said:

Your claim that “there are no indications that peoples/nations are left alive during the 1,000 years” is simply not true.
Revelation 20:3 explicitly says Satan is bound “so that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are finished.” You cannot deceive nations that do not exist.
The text itself requires nations during the thousand years, not merely after.
Verse 7 reinforces the same timeline: Satan is released after the thousand years to deceive the nations — the same nations he was prevented from deceiving earlier.
You are trying to erase nations from the millennium, but the text puts them there twice.

Your second claim — that all the prophetic passages I listed “must refer to the New Earth” — collapses under their own context.
Isaiah 65:20 says “the child shall die at a hundred years old.” There is death in that passage. There is childbearing. There is sin.
None of that exists in the New Earth (Rev 21:4).
Zechariah 14 describes nations refusing to worship and being punished with drought — rebellion and discipline, neither of which exist in the New Earth.
Micah 4 describes nations beating swords into plowshares — a transition from war to peace, not the eternal state where war is already abolished.
Psalm 72 describes kings bringing tribute — political structures that do not exist in the New Earth.
Daniel 7 describes dominion over nations — but Revelation 21 says the nations of the New Earth are healed, not ruled in judgment. These passages describe a world with nations, governments, sin, discipline, death, pilgrimage, and worship — all realities that cannot exist in the New Earth.

Brother, I need to correct you plainly: you are forcing every kingdom passage into the eternal state because your system cannot allow nations to exist during the millennium.
But Scripture does allow it — and actually requires it.
Revelation 20 places nations before, during, and after the thousand years.
The prophets describe nations living, dying, worshiping, rebelling, and being ruled by Messiah.
None of that fits the New Earth.
You are not following the text; you are trying to protect a framework.

So I stand by what I said: the millennium has nations, the prophets describe nations under Messiah’s earthly reign, and the New Earth is a different reality entirely.
Your argument does not refute the passages — it simply ignores what they say

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Yes.
Very plain and actually a no brainer.
It reads exactly like you laid it out.

Davidstarr said:

I have never supported the idea of "a post‑second‑coming world of surviving mortals".
This is what you seem to be doing.
I gave the references where this world is totally emptied of all life as a result of Jesus' 2nd coming.
No intermediate kingdom during the 1,000 years.
Rev 20's millennium is found ONLY in Rev 20. And nowhere does it show the 1,000 year reign is on earth.

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No.
It clearly reads after the second coming on white horses the mil begins with the nations on earth.
Millions of mortals, maybe billions.
The second coming battle is God hating armies, gathered in the middle east.
That army is destroyed, not every human on the planet.

OMC said:

Your claim is that the Second Coming leaves the earth completely emptied of life, citing Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4, and therefore no mortals remain to populate any earthly millennium; and since Revelation 20 is the only place the 1,000 years appear, and it never explicitly says “on earth,” the reign must be heavenly? Correct or no?

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That's what I've been saying

Davidstarr said:

That's what I've been saying

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Ok, so you claim Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4 depict the Second Coming, and because those passages use “empty,” “desolate,” and “without inhabitant” language, the earth must be completely depopulated when Christ returns; therefore, no mortals remain to enter any earthly millennium, and since Revelation 20 never explicitly says “on earth,” the 1,000‑year reign must occur in heaven.
My position is different: Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4 are judgment oracles, not Second Coming descriptions, and their devastation language is prophetic hyperbole, not eschatological depopulation. Revelation 19–20 is a continuous earthly narrative, and multiple passages show surviving nations after Christ’s return, so the argument that the millennium must be heavenly collapses once those OT texts are read in context.
The conflict resolves the moment you stop forcing Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4 to be Second Coming texts. Once those passages are read as prophetic judgment oracles (not eschatological depopulation events), the entire “earth emptied → no mortals → millennium must be heavenly” chain collapses. Revelation 19–20 is a single continuous earthly narrative, and the OT repeatedly shows surviving nations after the Day of the Lord. So the solution is simple: keep genre where it belongs. Let Isaiah/Jeremiah speak as prophetic hyperbole about devastation, not literal end‑time extinction, and let Revelation define the location of the millennium by its own narrative flow. When you do that, the supposed contradiction disappears — the earth is not emptied at Christ’s return, mortals remain, and the millennium does not need to be relocated to heaven.

You skipped the reason they couldn't understand and John brang it back to God originally Said it . Without the ox and the two sticks there is no second witness but John knew all the scriptures in all three versions he actually fixed a mistake because of their lack of understanding which we have here today
So don't forget the picture book org Hebrew The drawings of The OX Two Sticks . And yes what you're saying was used over 10,000 times can't tell you how many times Ox&+ was spoken God himself . I don't expect mind of men to understand it,as is that is written I don't know if you looked up the pictures of the ox and the two sticks the meanings and also put together
I'm pretty much done with this, it's for you. do what you want

OMC said:

Zechariah 12:10 is a messianic prophecy, and John 19:37 rightly identifies Jesus as its fulfillment, but the Hebrew particle אֵת (Aleph‑Taw) in “וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָרוּ” is not a divine signature; it is the standard Hebrew direct‑object marker, used thousands of times with no theological meaning.
The profundity of the verse comes not from אֵת but from the grammar of “look upon Me whom they pierced,” where Yahweh is the speaker — a textual phenomenon that anticipates the incarnation.
The Septuagint translators softened “pierced” into “mocked” (κατωρχήσαντο) because they struggled with the idea of Yahweh being physically stabbed, but John, writing under inspiration and as an eyewitness, restores the literal sense using ἐξεκέντησαν (“pierced”). Thus the contrast between the LXX and John is real, but it is not about a missing Aleph‑Taw; it is about John faithfully translating the Hebrew where the LXX paraphrased. The theological weight rests entirely on the identity of the pierced One — Yahweh in the flesh — not on the presence of אֵת.

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This is what you don't know & skipped long before any alphabet so all your testimony is going out the window!
In the very beginning, before any letters were ever drawn or any alphabets were invented, Aleph and Tav were not letters at all—they were two spoken words representing the two most foundational pillars of survival in ancient nomadic life: Strength and Ownership.
If you could travel back in time to the era before writing existed and say these words to a nomadic family, here is exactly what they would have pictured:

1. Spoken Aleph (\(\aleph \)) was the Source of Physical Life
In the earliest spoken Semitic languages, ’Alp (Aleph) meant a wild bull, an ox, or a leader.

• What it meant to them: To a family living in a primitive world, the ox was the ultimate symbol of strength, power, and leadership. It was the beast of burden that plowed the fields, broke the hard ground, and carried heavy loads. Without the ox, there was no agriculture, no food, and no survival.
• The Concept: It represented the active force—the beginning, the source, and the strong leader who goes before the group to lead the way.

2. Spoken Tav (ת) was the Source of Identity and Covenant
In those same ancient days, Taw (Tav) meant a mark, a sign, a signature, or a boundary.

• What it meant to them: Before people could sign their names, they needed a way to claim ownership or seal a promise. If a nomad wanted to brand their livestock, mark the boundary stone of their property, or establish a peace treaty with a neighboring tribe, they would slash a simple cross-mark or sign onto a surface.
• The Concept: It represented the final seal—ownership, destination, a covenant promise, and completion.

Putting It Together: The Spoken Meaning
When the concepts behind these two spoken words were eventually joined together into the word Et (את), they naturally carried a profound dual meaning: The beginning and the end, the strong leader and the covenant mark, the strength and the finish.
Therefore, when the Bible opens with Genesis 1:1, it uses symbols born from the grit of ancient survival—the ox that provides life and the mark that seals a covenant—to describe the transcendent God who created all things.

---

frederickdoc said:

This is what you don't know & skipped long before any alphabet so all your testimony is going out the window!
In the very beginning, before any letters were ever drawn or any alphabets were invented, Aleph and Tav were not letters at all—they were two spoken words representing the two most foundational pillars of survival in ancient nomadic life: Strength and Ownership.
If you could travel back in time to the era before writing existed and say these words to a nomadic family, here is exactly what they would have pictured:

1. Spoken Aleph (\(\aleph \)) was the Source of Physical Life
In the earliest spoken Semitic languages, ’Alp (Aleph) meant a wild bull, an ox, or a leader.

• What it meant to them: To a family living in a primitive world, the ox was the ultimate symbol of strength, power, and leadership. It was the beast of burden that plowed the fields, broke the hard ground, and carried heavy loads. Without the ox, there was no agriculture, no food, and no survival.
• The Concept: It represented the active force—the beginning, the source, and the strong leader who goes before the group to lead the way.

2. Spoken Tav (ת) was the Source of Identity and Covenant
In those same ancient days, Taw (Tav) meant a mark, a sign, a signature, or a boundary.

• What it meant to them: Before people could sign their names, they needed a way to claim ownership or seal a promise. If a nomad wanted to brand their livestock, mark the boundary stone of their property, or establish a peace treaty with a neighboring tribe, they would slash a simple cross-mark or sign onto a surface.
• The Concept: It represented the final seal—ownership, destination, a covenant promise, and completion.

Putting It Together: The Spoken Meaning
When the concepts behind these two spoken words were eventually joined together into the word Et (את), they naturally carried a profound dual meaning: The beginning and the end, the strong leader and the covenant mark, the strength and the finish.
Therefore, when the Bible opens with Genesis 1:1, it uses symbols born from the grit of ancient survival—the ox that provides life and the mark that seals a covenant—to describe the transcendent God who created all things.

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All evidence from linguistics, archaeology, and Scripture shows that Aleph and Tav did not exist as concepts before writing.
The sounds ʾ and t were part of early spoken Semitic languages, but letters cannot exist until a writing system exists, and the earliest Semitic writing (Proto‑Sinaitic) appears only around 1800–1500 BC.
Before that, there were no symbols, no alphabet, and no letter names.
Words like ʾeleph (“ox, strength”) and tāw (“mark, sign”) did exist, but they were ordinary vocabulary, not letters.
When writing finally emerged, pictographs represented sounds, not concepts, and by the time Hebrew was written, the letters were fully abstract and carried no symbolic meaning.
Scripture itself never assigns theological meaning to Aleph or Tav, and the particle et (את) is purely grammatical, not symbolic.
Thus, all available evidence confirms that Aleph and Tav became meaningful only after writing, not before. Nice try though.

What you have there is a modern devotional system, created in the last 20–30 years, that tries to read meaning into letters based on Proto‑Sinaitic pictographs — a writing system that existed hundreds of years before biblical Hebrew and was never used by the biblical authors.

frederickdoc said:

Good try read better that was an example nothing to question yes turned around read it Again. I try this again anyway .open the eyes read very carefully and if you say anything stick to this layout please

• The Hebrew order: "...וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ..."
• Literal Translation: "...and they shall look upon me [Aleph-Taw] whom they have pierced..."

Why This is Profound

1. God is Speaking: In the context of Zechariah 12, the person speaking is Yahweh (the LORD God Almighty). He says they will look upon Me (God) whom they pierced. Since God is a spirit and cannot be physically stabbed, this points directly to God taking on human flesh.
2. The Signature at the Wound: The silent Aleph-Taw—the Beginning and the End—sits perfectly in the sentence right between the words "look upon me" and "whom they have pierced." It acts like a divine marker identifying exactly who is on that cross.
3. The New Testament Fulfillment

The Apostle John (the very Same author of John 8 was standing at the foot of the cross when Jesus was crucified. He watched a Roman soldier plunge a spear into Jesus's side.
Decades later, when John wrote his Gospel, he explicitly quoted this exact verse from Zechariah to prove Jesus was the Messiah:

John recognized that the pierced man on the cross was the walking Aleph-Taw, the ultimate second witness sent from heaven. Now we show you How John fuced a mistake in the translation of hebrew using Zachariah 12
The Greek translation of Zechariah 12:10 depends entirely on whether you look at the ancient Greek Septuagint (LXX) translated before Christ, or the New Testament Greek written by the Apostle John.
There is a fascinating linguistic shift between the two.

1. The Ancient Greek Septuagint (LXX)
When Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek around 200–300 BC, they struggled with the phrase "whom they have pierced" because the Hebrew text implies that Yahweh Himself was physically stabbed. To make sense of it, they translated the Hebrew word for pierced (daqar) metaphorically as "mocked" or "treated spitefully":

• The Greek Text: ...καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρός με ἀνθ’ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο...
• English Translation: "...and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me..."
• The Root Word: The Greek verb used is katorcheomai (κατορχέομαι), which literally means "to dance in triumph over" or "insult
• Because of this specific translation choice, the silent Hebrew Aleph-Taw (את) completely disappears in the Septuagint Greek. It is replaced by standard Greek grammar particles meaning "because of" or "on account of" (anth' hon).
  
  2. The New Testament Greek (John 19:37)
  The Apostle John was standing right at the cross when Jesus was stabbed. He knew the Greek Septuagint said "mocked," but he looked at Jesus's physical body and realized the original Hebrew text ("pierced") was being literally fulfilled.
  When John writes his Gospel in Greek, he bypasses the Septuaginttranslation and translates the Hebrew directly into Greek himself:
  • The New Testament Greek: Ὄψονται εἰς ὃν ἐξεκέντησαν.
  • English Translation: "They shall look on him whom they pierced." — John 19:37
  • The Root Word: John uses the precise Greek word ekkenteo (ἐκκεντέω), which means to pierce through, stab, or plunge a weapon into someone.
• 
  Summary: The "Missing Signature" Found
  In the standard Greek Old Testament, the verse focuses on Israel mocking God. But when the New Testament unlocks the verse, it reveals the literal piercing of the Son. John shows that Jesus is the living translation of the verse—restoring the physical wound where the Aleph-Taw sits in the Hebrew text

Click to expand...

This is a classic example of Aleph‑Tav Christological typology built on Paleo‑Hebrew/Aleph‑Tav theology, combined with a Septuagint vs Masoretic fulfillment argument.
It treats the particle את in Zechariah 12:10 as a “silent signature” of the divine Aleph‑Tav (Beginning and End), reads it as a Christ‑marker between “look upon me” and “whom they pierced,” then contrasts the Septuagint’s rendering (“mocked”) with John’s Greek (“pierced”) to argue that John restores the “true” Hebrew sense and reveals Jesus as the living Aleph‑Tav.
In short, it’s a modern Messianic/Aleph‑Tav typology system, not standard Hebrew grammar or mainstream textual criticism.

Basically Everyhing it is

OMC said:

This is a classic example of Aleph‑Tav Christological typology built on Paleo‑Hebrew/Aleph‑Tav theology, combined with a Septuagint vs Masoretic fulfillment argument.
It treats the particle את in Zechariah 12:10 as a “silent signature” of the divine Aleph‑Tav (Beginning and End), reads it as a Christ‑marker between “look upon me” and “whom they pierced,” then contrasts the Septuagint’s rendering (“mocked”) with John’s Greek (“pierced”) to argue that John restores the “true” Hebrew sense and reveals Jesus as the living Aleph‑Tav.
In short, it’s a modern Messianic/Aleph‑Tav typology system, not standard Hebrew grammar or mainstream textual criticism.

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Is Jesus Lord God A-Z and He has been saying it All the Time from the Begining to the End it's like a signature speech Another is Son of Man.
I just see it from beginning to the end if it's coincidental first book last book. That's pretty cool .Fact he's the first and last and that means he holds everything! Like John the other Hebrew Israelites when they hear him and see him they'll know what the scriptures meant they memorize the scripture a week or what I understand but it doesn't really matter I can't do it

If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of strength (the Ox) directly to the ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very exact moment the universe is brought into existence.
Much Later Hebrew created an aalphabet ans GAVe leters to
The Ox And The Cross Sticks! that were they nessed up the Word til jesus was pierced in the side and John later corrected into Greek from the original pictures book not to translated from hebrew alphabet book . there should be no argument because there was no alphabet till later so you can't use the alphabet against the Ox And the cross sticks picture !
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of Strength (the Ox) directly to the Ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very Exact Moment the Universe is brought into Existence.

OMC said:

Brother, I didn’t turn anything around — I answered the claim exactly where you placed it, because the accusation itself was flawed. When someone says “the disciples couldn’t see the Father even while touching Jesus,” that is not my subject‑change; that is a contradiction of Jesus’ own words, and I’m obligated to anchor the correction in the text. Jesus didn’t say they needed more evidence, or a future final sign, or some Aman‑absolute revelation; He said the revelation was already present in Himself, and their blindness was spiritual, not informational. That’s why I quoted “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not known Me?” — because that is the exact rebuke Jesus gives to the exact misunderstanding you repeated. You said they “just didn’t know yet,” but Jesus says the reason they didn’t know was not lack of evidence but lack of receiving Him. You said He will “speak to all as final evidence,” but Jesus says the generation that rejected Him gets no further sign except the resurrection, and His voice is heard only by His sheep. That’s not me changing the subject; that’s me refusing to let the conversation drift away from what Jesus actually said

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Your not listening Forget any alphabet in word study history Dynamics there was None
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of strength (the Ox) directly to the ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very exact moment the universe is brought into existence.
Much Later Hebrew created an aalphabet and GAVe leters to
The Ox And The Cross Sticks! that were they messed up the Word til jesus was pierced in the side and John later corrected into Greek from the original pictures book not to translated from hebrew alphabet book . there should be no argument because there was no alphabet till later so you can't use the alphabet against the Ox And the cross sticks picture !
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of Strength (the Ox) directly to the Ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very Exact Moment the Universe is brought into Existence.

OMC said:

All evidence from linguistics, archaeology, and Scripture shows that Aleph and Tav did not exist as concepts before writing.
The sounds ʾ and t were part of early spoken Semitic languages, but letters cannot exist until a writing system exists, and the earliest Semitic writing (Proto‑Sinaitic) appears only around 1800–1500 BC.
Before that, there were no symbols, no alphabet, and no letter names.
Words like ʾeleph (“ox, strength”) and tāw (“mark, sign”) did exist, but they were ordinary vocabulary, not letters.
When writing finally emerged, pictographs represented sounds, not concepts, and by the time Hebrew was written, the letters were fully abstract and carried no symbolic meaning.
Scripture itself never assigns theological meaning to Aleph or Tav, and the particle et (את) is purely grammatical, not symbolic.
Thus, all available evidence confirms that Aleph and Tav became meaningful only after writing, not before. Nice try though.

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The earliest known alphabetic letters date back to around 2400 BCE, found inscribed on small finger-length clay cylinders in an ancient tomb at Tell Umm-el Marra in Syria. [1, 2]

• The Discovery: Excavated by archaeologists from Johns Hopkins University, these cylinders feature simple phonetic symbols that predate previous discoveries by roughly 500 years. [1, 2]
• • Previous Beliefs: Earlier scholarship placed the invention of the first alphabetic scripts around 1900 BCE to 1800 BCE with Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions in the Sinai Peninsula and Egypt. [1, 2, 3]
  • Broader Writing: If looking beyond alphabetic letters to full writing systems (like logographic symbols or syllables), the earliest writing emerged slightly before 3000 BCE with Mesopotamian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs

Inquisitor said:

The earliest known alphabetic letters date back to around 2400 BCE, found inscribed on small finger-length clay cylinders in an ancient tomb at Tell Umm-el Marra in Syria. [1, 2]

• The Discovery: Excavated by archaeologists from Johns Hopkins University, these cylinders feature simple phonetic symbols that predate previous discoveries by roughly 500 years. [1, 2]
• • Previous Beliefs: Earlier scholarship placed the invention of the first alphabetic scripts around 1900 BCE to 1800 BCE with Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions in the Sinai Peninsula and Egypt. [1, 2, 3]
  • Broader Writing: If looking beyond alphabetic letters to full writing systems (like logographic symbols or syllables), the earliest writing emerged slightly before 3000 BCE with Mesopotamian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs

Click to expand...

The clay cylinders from Tell Umm el‑Marra (c. 2400 BCE) show that early scribes were already experimenting with phonetic reduction, using small sound‑based marks inside larger logographic systems, but they do not represent a true alphabet. They predate Proto‑Sinaitic by about five centuries, yet they lack the defining features of alphabetic writing—no stable letter shapes, no letter names, no fixed order, and no consistent phonetic values. Earlier scholarship placed the emergence of the first genuine alphabet around 1900–1800 BCE with Proto‑Sinaitic inscriptions, and that remains intact: the Umm el‑Marra symbols are proto‑phonetic hints, not alphabetic letters. When looking beyond alphabets to full writing systems, the earliest true writing still begins slightly before 3000 BCE with Mesopotamian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs, showing that structured writing long predates any alphabetic innovation.

tttallison said:

I see a parallel of ages. It was Jesus who spoke to the Jews of the harvest of the wheat and tares. And yes, I see that occurring in Revelation chapter fourteen during the age of the law, but I also see it occurring in the age, or time of the Gentiles, as it occurs in Revelation nineteen.

There is a resurrection in chapter nineteen, as chapter 20, tells us so. Those that are resurrected go to the wedding, and the rest of the living are killed, right down to the remnant.

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Where do you see a resurrection in rev 19?
Or in rev 20?

frederickdoc said:

If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of strength (the Ox) directly to the ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very exact moment the universe is brought into existence.
Much Later Hebrew created an aalphabet ans GAVe leters to
The Ox And The Cross Sticks! that were they nessed up the Word til jesus was pierced in the side and John later corrected into Greek from the original pictures book not to translated from hebrew alphabet book . there should be no argument because there was no alphabet till later so you can't use the alphabet against the Ox And the cross sticks picture !
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of Strength (the Ox) directly to the Ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very Exact Moment the Universe is brought into Existence.

Your not listening Forget any alphabet in word study history Dynamics there was None
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of strength (the Ox) directly to the ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very exact moment the universe is brought into existence.
Much Later Hebrew created an aalphabet and GAVe leters to
The Ox And The Cross Sticks! that were they messed up the Word til jesus was pierced in the side and John later corrected into Greek from the original pictures book not to translated from hebrew alphabet book . there should be no argument because there was no alphabet till later so you can't use the alphabet against the Ox And the cross sticks picture !
If you remove those pictures, you lose the ancient visual map that ties the ultimate symbol of Strength (the Ox) directly to the Ultimate symbol of a boundary or covenant (the Cross) at the very Exact Moment the Universe is brought into Existence.

Click to expand...

Brother,
You keep repeating the same claim, but none of it actually touches the textual point I made.
You’re arguing that the ancient pictographs—the ox and the crossed sticks—carry a divine, Christological meaning that later Hebrew “messed up,” and that John somehow “corrected” the Hebrew Bible by restoring the original pictures.
But that entire framework is not how Scripture works, not how Hebrew works, and not how inspiration works.

Let me say this plainly, without attacking you:
The Bible God inspired was not written in pictographs. It was written in Hebrew words, not pictures.

The “ox” and “crossed sticks” symbols you’re talking about come from proto‑Sinaitic and proto‑Canaanite inscriptions—over a thousand years older than the Hebrew of Moses, David, Isaiah, or Zechariah. Those pictures are archaeological artifacts, not inspired Scripture. They do not carry theological meaning, and they do not override the grammar of the Hebrew Bible.

The particle את in Zechariah 12:10 is not a “signature,” not a Christ‑marker, not a hidden Aleph‑Tav revelation. It is a direct‑object marker—a grammatical tool with no semantic meaning. Every Hebrew scholar, every lexicon, every grammar agrees on this. You can’t build theology on a particle that the language itself says has no meaning.

And John did not “correct” the Hebrew Bible. John quoted the Hebrew meaning faithfully: “They shall look upon Me whom they pierced.”
He wasn’t restoring pictographs.
He wasn’t bypassing the Hebrew alphabet.
He wasn’t rewriting Moses.
He was quoting Scripture, not archaeology.

You keep saying, “Forget the alphabet, there was none.”
But that is simply not true.
The Hebrew alphabet existed long before Zechariah, long before the prophets, long before the Psalms.
The inspired text is Hebrew words, not ancient drawings. If you remove the alphabet, you don’t “restore truth”—you destroy the very form God chose to reveal His Word.

And yes, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and End—but He said that in Greek, because Revelation is written in Greek.
He wasn’t giving a secret code. He wasn’t pointing back to pictographs.
He was declaring His eternal nature in the language of the audience.

Brother, I’m not ignoring you. I’m telling you the truth: You cannot replace the inspired Hebrew text with ancient pictures and call it revelation. You cannot turn a grammatical particle into a Christ‑symbol. You cannot claim John rewrote the Old Testament from pictographs.

If you want to talk about Jesus as the Beginning and the End, I’m with you.
If you want to talk about His eternal nature, I’m with you.
If you want to talk about His identity as Lord and God, I’m with you.

But the Aleph‑Tav pictograph system you’re defending is not Scripture.
It’s a modern typology system built on archaeology, not on the inspired text.

Davidstarr said:

Rev 19 is a symbolic representation of Jesus' 2nd coming.

The righteous dead are resurrected from their graves and together with the righteous living are taken to heaven by Jesus.
I Thess. 4:15 thru 5:5

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Ok i read the below quote.. Where does it say they are taken to Heaven??
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It tells us we shall be caught up to meet the returning LORD Jesus in the air and that from that time onwards we shall be with the LORD forever and ever.. It says nothing about being taken to heaven..

Davidstarr said:

Jesus takes His people to heaven. John 14:1-4

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John 14:1 - John 14:3
(John 14:1-3) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Again no declaration of Jesus taking us to Heaven.. It says He does go to prepare a place for us and the Book of Revelation reveals what this place is called and goes into details about it's dimensions.. It is called the New Jerusalem.. But note what the Book of Revelation says about where the New Jerusalem will be moved from and too..

Revelation 21:1 - Revelation 21:3
(Revelation 21:1-3) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

So our etrnal Home will be the New Jerusalem and it will come down out of Heaven ( so it will not be in Heaven ) and we who are saved will live there with the LORD for ever and ever..

Davidstarr said:

Satan bound in the "bottomless pit" (Abyssos). Resurrection of the righteous and the beginning of the 1,000 years - Rev. 20:1-6

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Yes satan is bound in chains in the bottomless pit for 1000 years but read also that at the end of the 1000 years he will be released to go out to deceive the people Gog and Magog to lead then to attack Jerusalem and the camp of the Saints..

Revelation 20:7 - Revelation 20:9
(Revelation 20:7-9) " {7} And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So the Saints will not be in Heaven they will be encamped around Jerusalem ( the Beloved City ) at the end of the 1000 years.. So satan and those deceived by Him from the nations ( Gog and Magog ) will be destroyed by fire.. Now if no one is living on earth during the 1000 years then who is satan going to deceive and lead the to attack Jerusalem??? He is not going to be deceiving the risen Saints who are ruling the world with The LORD that you can be assured of..

Adstar said:

Ok i read the below quote.. Where does it say they are taken to Heaven??
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It tells us we shall be caught up to meet the returning LORD Jesus in the air and that from that time onwards we shall be with the LORD forever and ever.. It says nothing about being taken to heaven..



John 14:1 - John 14:3
(John 14:1-3) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Again no declaration of Jesus taking us to Heaven.. It says He does go to prepare a place for us and the Book of Revelation reveals what this place is called and goes into details about it's dimensions.. It is called the New Jerusalem.. But note what the Book of Revelation says about where the New Jerusalem will be moved from and too..

Revelation 21:1 - Revelation 21:3
(Revelation 21:1-3) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

So our etrnal Home will be the New Jerusalem and it will come down out of Heaven ( so it will not be in Heaven ) and we who are saved will live there with the LORD for ever and ever..


Yes satan is bound in chains in the bottomless pit for 1000 years but read also that at the end of the 1000 years he will be released to go out to deceive the people Gog and Magog to lead then to attack Jerusalem and the camp of the Saints..

Revelation 20:7 - Revelation 20:9
(Revelation 20:7-9) " {7} And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So the Saints will not be in Heaven they will be encamped around Jerusalem ( the Beloved City ) at the end of the 1000 years.. So satan and those deceived by Him from the nations ( Gog and Magog ) will be destroyed by fire.. Now if no one is living on earth during the 1000 years then who is satan going to deceive and lead the to attack Jerusalem??? He is not going to be deceiving the risen Saints who are ruling the world with The LORD that you can be assured of..

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The resurrection of the wicked. The 2nd resurrection of Rev 20. These are the ones Satan deceives AFTER the 1,000 years are finished.
Joel 3:9-17 shows this exact same event:
The wicked are resurrected (awakened out of sleep), they make weapons and surround the New Jerusalem.
God sits and judges them in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (the valley of decision).