Revelation 21 directly contradicts the idea that the earth being destroyed. John writes, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.” The word kainos (“new”) means renewed in quality, not replaced. And the verb ἀπέρχομαι (“passed away”) means to depart or move out of its former state—a change of condition, not annihilation. If John intended to say the earth was destroyed, he had several Greek verbs that explicitly mean “destroy” or “obliterate,” but he used none of them.Whatever happens then happens after the earth is destroyed, so any non-heavenly hope will prove futile in the face of that event.
And that sounds like you get it?
As long as you understand that Heavenly Jerusalem is not a city made with hands, but the actual bride of Christ.
The citizens of heavenly Jerusalem are the faithful both of old covenant Israel, and of the whole world before and after it.
The temple is Christ (Revelations 21:22).
Your framework is apostolic, not outdated.My perspective isn’t “outdated”; it’s simply older in the sense that it reflects how the apostles themselves understood God’s promises. What you’re describing developed later within Gentile Christian theology, and it doesn’t reflect the original Jewish‑apostolic framework.
If our final hope is purely heavenly, it’s worth asking why Scripture describes the New Jerusalem descending to the earth. That is not presented as a metaphor, and it doesn’t diminish the New Covenant in any way. And I don’t see how believing God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants leads anyone away from faith in Jesus. Jesus affirmed those promises, and so did Paul. The apostles held both the land promises and faith in Christ together without contradiction.
The physical land promise functions the same way other biblical patterns do: the earthly reality points to a greater heavenly one. Hebrews 8–9 says the earthly tabernacle was a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary. Physical circumcision pointed to circumcision of the heart. God often uses physical representations to help us grasp spiritual truths.
For that reason, teaching that God will renew earthly Jerusalem when the heavenly reality descends does not keep anyone from heaven. Scripture presents it as the moment when heaven and earth are united and death is no more.
I appreciate you bringing up Exodus 23:21. The Angel described there—God’s own manifestation, the pre‑incarnate Christ—was sent to lead Israel into the land. The warning is about obeying Him during that mission. It is not a statement that the Mosaic covenant offered no forgiveness, nor does it imply that physical Israel or the land promises have been set aside. The passage concerns obedience to God’s messenger, not the cancellation of Israel’s future. Throughout Scripture, God repeatedly forgives, restores, and re‑gathers Israel, and the prophets speak plainly about their return.
God has indeed given us a greater hope than the land itself, but that isn’t the issue here. We’re discussing the specific promise of physical land to the nation of Israel. That promise is not about eternal life; it is a covenantal gift with its own purpose, and Scripture treats it as such.
So I ask again: if God never intended to give this land to Israel, why do the prophets repeatedly describe their restoration to it? Why does God continue to affirm this promise? Why does Jesus defend Israel against the nations in the last days? And if Scripture consistently presents this land as God’s everlasting gift to Israel, why reinterpret it in a way that removes what God has declared? It’s important that we let the full witness of Scripture speak, rather than building a theology from a few passages taken out of context.
My discomfort isn’t with you personally—it’s with interpretations that move away from what Scripture plainly says. God calls us to love truth, and I want to remain faithful to what He has revealed
Many will object and call this “spiritualized hermeneutics.”“Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
— Matthew 16:18
were brought near:“aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise”
And Christ made the two groups:“by the blood of Christ.”
Therefore, the Church is not an unrelated people accidentally added beside Israel.“one new man.”
Again:“In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
— Genesis 12:3
And Paul explicitly tells us how this promise is fulfilled:“In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.”
— Genesis 22:18
Notice carefully:“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
— Galatians 3:8
The blessing promised to Abraham was always destined to extend beyond ethnic Israel.“God would justify the heathen.”
Christ, the promised Seed, brings the blessing of salvation by turning His people away from their iniquities.“And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
— Acts 3:25
And:“There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
That is Paul's own inspired interpretation.“If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
— Galatians 3:28–29
And:“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”
Physical descent alone never guaranteed participation in the saving promises of God.“The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
— Romans 9:6–8
Therefore, salvation is not determined by ancestry.“Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
— John 1:13
The Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints belong to the same ultimate redemptive purpose of God.“God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
“God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
— Hebrews 11:40
As a prophesy Deuteronomy 30 fits well into the time of the second temple restoration.
If we interpret into modern times we must also assume that God has still bound a group of people to the law of Moses.
If that was the case the group would also be bound to the curses for disobeying the law.
Yet thankfully that is not what God is doing.
Amen...but it is only activated upon acceptance of it through belief in the Messiah. It doesn't happen automatically, wouldn't you agree?The mediator of the Mosaic was the man Moses, and it was confirmed by the blood of animals.
It was not made with the whole world, but with the 12 tribes of national Israel, on whom Moses sprinkled the blood.
The New covenant is built on a more secure foundation than that.
The mediator was God Himself, sealing it in His own blood for people of the whole earth.
The Mosaic covenant was also bound to failure, as predicted by Moses himself, yet Jesus alone obeyed it.
Just as Jesus was the reason the Mosaic covenant existed, He was also the reason that old covenant Israel ever existed
Yes, the new covenant REPLACED the old covenant.
That means that there is a far better thing available to the Jews than national Israel.
In this, we fully agree. Completely clueless. Even basic logic and grammar seems difficult.Blinded for a time... sigh, I'm glad He knows what He's doing because too many Christians don't seem to know even after they read it.
Denial is a river that runs deep in the land of bondage.No, they do not, that is a lie, flat out.
About what?
No, another lie as big as the first one.
All lies, should have saved myself the bother and bundled them together. smh
Denial is a river that runs deep in the land of bondage.
Some subscribe to what is known as replacement theology. They reject the idea that God has any purpose for the modern nation of Israel. I find this patently absurd, for reasons I've already stated.
This morning I was listening to the late Derek Prince, who was literally there at the rebirth of the nation of Israel. He knows the scriptures as well as anyone, and better than most. He quoted one that I've overlooked to date and that answers a claim made by superessionists.
In the book of Revelation, John was receiving a vision of the last days. Most scholars believe this was written about 95 AD. Jesus was well and truly ascended, glorified and ruling and reigning. This is how Jesus is described: (Revelation 5:5)
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Replacement theology has no place in a believer's life. It can lead to antisemitism, as many Jews found to their cost. Salvation is still of the Jews. To show contempt for Israel is to belittle God's plan for that nation. We should be supporting Israel with our prayers and, if we able, with practical help. The world hastens to condemn Israel for Gaza's situation, ignoring the fact that the people of Gaza brought it on themselves. Many Israelis have lost their homes because of missile attacks, farmland has been destroyed and many farms were abandoned because of constant attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas.
I do not hear of aid convoys pouring into Israel. I do hear the constant lies about aid centres been shot at by the IDF. The reality is that Hamas has murdered many who seek food for themselves and their families. Hamas seeks to control aid distribution. They profit from it by selling it and they steal it to feed their fighters.
The world is under the control of Satan. We should not be surprised if the world hates Israel. As the church, we should know better.
Believe it or not but I didnt even know that what is called "supercessionism" or "replacement theology" even existed when I first believed in Jesus. I grew up in a Lutheran country and Israel was just never really spoken of so you cant say I was brainwashed by some dispensationalist churches, I never read the Bible but when I started to do so I never for a second believed in replacement theology.Some subscribe to what is known as replacement theology. They reject the idea that God has any purpose for the modern nation of Israel. I find this patently absurd, for reasons I've already stated.
This morning I was listening to the late Derek Prince, who was literally there at the rebirth of the nation of Israel. He knows the scriptures as well as anyone, and better than most. He quoted one that I've overlooked to date and that answers a claim made by superessionists.
In the book of Revelation, John was receiving a vision of the last days. Most scholars believe this was written about 95 AD. Jesus was well and truly ascended, glorified and ruling and reigning. This is how Jesus is described: (Revelation 5:5)
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Replacement theology has no place in a believer's life. It can lead to antisemitism, as many Jews found to their cost. Salvation is still of the Jews. To show contempt for Israel is to belittle God's plan for that nation. We should be supporting Israel with our prayers and, if we able, with practical help. The world hastens to condemn Israel for Gaza's situation, ignoring the fact that the people of Gaza brought it on themselves. Many Israelis have lost their homes because of missile attacks, farmland has been destroyed and many farms were abandoned because of constant attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas.
I do not hear of aid convoys pouring into Israel. I do hear the constant lies about aid centres been shot at by the IDF. The reality is that Hamas has murdered many who seek food for themselves and their families. Hamas seeks to control aid distribution. They profit from it by selling it and they steal it to feed their fighters.
The world is under the control of Satan. We should not be surprised if the world hates Israel. As the church, we should know better.
Is the Church an enemy of the Gospel? Is the Church partially blinded? Is the Church yet to welcome the Lord?We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because the Body of Christ is or are the Children of God, which also is Israel. Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16
Try reading Romans 11. You can make the Bible say almost anything if you are selective enough and ensure that you ignore anything that contradicts your specious reasoning.We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because the Body of Christ is or are the Children of God, which also is Israel. Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
This is both jew and gentile believers with the Spirit in them testifying within them that they are the children of God.
Now in Rom 9 Paul in contrasting two Israels identifies one of them as being the children of God apart from the other 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Now who cant see that the Children of God in this context refers to one of the Israel's in Vs 6
Then in Jn 11 we have the children of God being identified as Israel, Jn 11:50-52
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
These are the same children of God in Rom 8:16 which is the Church, the Body of Christ, them with the Spirit of God in them Rom 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
And if the Children of God they are also heirs. The same heirs that pertain to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heb 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 14
The nation of Israel, including the commonwealth of Israel, and the physical genetic line that inhabited it, were never intended by God to be the true spiritual Israel, but an example He created as a reflection of the true heavenly, spiritual Israel and spiritual Jews. We see this plainly in Hebrews 8:5 where we are told that the earthly things are not the true substance, but an example and shadow of heavenly things. The earthly nation was intended by God to demonstrate only a temporary heavenly pattern, but not to be perceived as the permanent reality. The earthly copy was made after the heavenly pattern, not the heavenly after the earthly. By its very nature, a shadow is dark and does not have the light that caused it; it is merely a temporary silhouette pointing directly to the living reality. Since the earthly is a shadow of the heavenly, the true citizens that comprise the heavenly Israel have also been spiritually identified. Romans 2:28-29 explicitly states that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly in the spirit.
Your reliance on physical identifiers fails because the root of David is not physical DNA or earthly borders. The root is Christ, and the tree is His elect corporate body. Ephesians 2:14-15 states that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition and abolished the enmity in His flesh to make in Himself of twain one new man. 1 Peter 2:9-10 explicitly takes the Old Testament titles of national Israel and applies them directly to the New Covenant church, calling them a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and an holy nation. The text states that those who in time past were not a people are now the people of God. Hebrews 8:6 states that Christ has obtained a more excellent ministry and is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. The shadow of an earthly nation has been completely fulfilled by the heavenly substance as we are informed by Scripture.
Believe what you like, Israel exists, like it or not. It is there according to God's promises. It will remain until there is a new heaven and new earth. Maybe it bugs you that a nation of sinners and rebels should be shown mercy and grace by God. Paul warns believers against such an attitude. Read Romans 11. I know it does not fit your doctrine, but its in your Bible too.
My point is that God's covenant with the nation of Israel still stands. It is also that Israel exists according to God's will and purpose, that is yet to be completed.You did not answer a single scripture or argument I actually posted. I never denied that a physical nation exists on earth today. My post proved from Hebrews 8:5 that physical earthly things are a temporary shadow, but that a heavenly substance has fulfilled that shadow. You completely bypassed Hebrews 8:5, Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:14-15, and 1 Peter 2:9-10 because your belief has no answer for them. You are the one ignoring Romans 11 because you refuse to recognize that the Root of that tree is Christ, not physical lineage nor an earthly nation. Pointing to a modern nation does not erase what Scripture tells us.
My point is that God's covenant with the nation of Israel still stands. It is also that Israel exists according to God's will and purpose, that is yet to be completed.
By Nature yes. Paul who was saul who is part of the Church, before converted was an enemy of the Gospel. And so its with all sinners regardless of ethnicity.Is the Church an enemy of the Gospel?