More about Israel.

[dkontner]

Galatians 3​

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[PotofSoup]

Whatever happens then happens after the earth is destroyed, so any non-heavenly hope will prove futile in the face of that event.



And that sounds like you get it?



As long as you understand that Heavenly Jerusalem is not a city made with hands, but the actual bride of Christ.
The citizens of heavenly Jerusalem are the faithful both of old covenant Israel, and of the whole world before and after it.
The temple is Christ (Revelations 21:22).

Revelation 21 directly contradicts the idea that the earth being destroyed. John writes, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.” The word kainos (“new”) means renewed in quality, not replaced. And the verb ἀπέρχομαι (“passed away”) means to depart or move out of its former state—a change of condition, not annihilation. If John intended to say the earth was destroyed, he had several Greek verbs that explicitly mean “destroy” or “obliterate,” but he used none of them.

In Second Temple Judaism, resurrection always meant bodily life restored in God’s renewed world, never a final existence in a non‑physical heaven. Revelation 21 assumes this Jewish framework, the righteous do not escape creation; God renews creation and dwells with His resurrected people within it. Jewish expectation was not, “We die and go to heaven forever,” but “God will remake the world, and the righteous will live in it forever.”

Revelation 21 is therefore the climax of Jewish resurrection theology—its final flowering, not a departure from it.

 

[OMC]

My perspective isn’t “outdated”; it’s simply older in the sense that it reflects how the apostles themselves understood God’s promises. What you’re describing developed later within Gentile Christian theology, and it doesn’t reflect the original Jewish‑apostolic framework.

If our final hope is purely heavenly, it’s worth asking why Scripture describes the New Jerusalem descending to the earth. That is not presented as a metaphor, and it doesn’t diminish the New Covenant in any way. And I don’t see how believing God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants leads anyone away from faith in Jesus. Jesus affirmed those promises, and so did Paul. The apostles held both the land promises and faith in Christ together without contradiction.

The physical land promise functions the same way other biblical patterns do: the earthly reality points to a greater heavenly one. Hebrews 8–9 says the earthly tabernacle was a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary. Physical circumcision pointed to circumcision of the heart. God often uses physical representations to help us grasp spiritual truths.

For that reason, teaching that God will renew earthly Jerusalem when the heavenly reality descends does not keep anyone from heaven. Scripture presents it as the moment when heaven and earth are united and death is no more.

I appreciate you bringing up Exodus 23:21. The Angel described there—God’s own manifestation, the pre‑incarnate Christ—was sent to lead Israel into the land. The warning is about obeying Him during that mission. It is not a statement that the Mosaic covenant offered no forgiveness, nor does it imply that physical Israel or the land promises have been set aside. The passage concerns obedience to God’s messenger, not the cancellation of Israel’s future. Throughout Scripture, God repeatedly forgives, restores, and re‑gathers Israel, and the prophets speak plainly about their return.

God has indeed given us a greater hope than the land itself, but that isn’t the issue here. We’re discussing the specific promise of physical land to the nation of Israel. That promise is not about eternal life; it is a covenantal gift with its own purpose, and Scripture treats it as such.

So I ask again: if God never intended to give this land to Israel, why do the prophets repeatedly describe their restoration to it? Why does God continue to affirm this promise? Why does Jesus defend Israel against the nations in the last days? And if Scripture consistently presents this land as God’s everlasting gift to Israel, why reinterpret it in a way that removes what God has declared? It’s important that we let the full witness of Scripture speak, rather than building a theology from a few passages taken out of context.

My discomfort isn’t with you personally—it’s with interpretations that move away from what Scripture plainly says. God calls us to love truth, and I want to remain faithful to what He has revealed

Your framework is apostolic, not outdated.
The New Jerusalem descending shows heaven and earth united.
Physical patterns point to heavenly realities without erasing the physical.
Exodus 23:21 does not cancel Israel’s future.
The land promise is covenantal, not salvific — and still real.
The prophets consistently affirm Israel’s restoration.
It makes me uncomfortable too, interpretations that erase what God plainly promised should be questioned.

 

[brightfame52]

Are Made to Be Realized in the Church! Continued​

Paul has shown that the prophecies of Hosea are fulfilled in the Church, the one body of people Christ Himself is building:

“Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
— Matthew 16:18

Many will object and call this “spiritualized hermeneutics.”

But if it is spiritualized hermeneutics, then Paul himself did it.

And Paul was not merely offering his personal interpretation. He was an authorized apostle and messenger of Jesus Christ, writing by divine inspiration.

The real question is not whether someone's preconceived system approves of the apostles' interpretation of the Old Testament.

The question is:

How did the inspired writers of the New Testament interpret the Old Testament promises?

Paul explicitly applies the prophecy of Hosea to the calling of God's people in Christ, including those called from among both Jews and Gentiles.

Therefore, the New Testament itself teaches us that Old Testament promises concerning God's people must be understood in the light of their fulfillment in Christ.

The Restoration of Israel Is Realized in the Salvation of God's People​

The Old Testament repeatedly speaks of God's purpose to restore His people to Himself.

The New Testament reveals that this restoration is realized through the saving work of Christ and the calling of His people from among both Jews and Gentiles.

This does not mean that the Old Testament promises were false.

It means that their fulfillment is greater and more comprehensive than a merely nationalistic interpretation allows.

The promises were always centered upon Christ.

And those who belong to Christ are gathered into the one redeemed people of God.

This is exactly what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2.

Those who were formerly:

“aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise”

were brought near:

“by the blood of Christ.”

And Christ made the two groups:

“one new man.”

Therefore, the Church is not an unrelated people accidentally added beside Israel.

In Christ, the believing people of God are brought together into one body.

The Gentiles are not saved by becoming Jews according to the flesh.

Nor are they required to discover some supposed hidden Hebrew ancestry.

They are brought into the people of God through Christ.

The Promise Was Always Larger Than Ethnic Israel Alone​

God promised Abraham:

“In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
— Genesis 12:3

Again:

“In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.”
— Genesis 22:18

And Paul explicitly tells us how this promise is fulfilled:

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
— Galatians 3:8

Notice carefully:

Paul does not say the Gentiles were secretly Israelites according to the flesh.

He says:

“God would justify the heathen.”

The blessing promised to Abraham was always destined to extend beyond ethnic Israel.

The Gentiles would be brought into the blessings of salvation through Abraham's Seed—Christ.

And Peter preached the same Abrahamic promise when he declared:

“And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
— Acts 3:25

Christ, the promised Seed, brings the blessing of salvation by turning His people away from their iniquities.

The Church Is the Gathering of God's One Redeemed People​

The calling of the Gentiles from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation is not a failure of God's promises to Israel.

It is part of the fulfillment of God's purpose in Christ.

God is gathering His people into one redeemed body.

Believing Jews are not cast away from Christ's people.

Believing Gentiles are not excluded from them.

Both are brought together in Christ.

Paul says:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

And:

“If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
— Galatians 3:28–29

That is Paul's own inspired interpretation.

Union with Christ—not ethnic DNA—is the determining reality.

Israel According to Promise​

This is entirely consistent with Paul's teaching in Romans 9:

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”

And:

“The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
— Romans 9:6–8

Physical descent alone never guaranteed participation in the saving promises of God.

Paul distinguishes between:

the children of the flesh

and

the children of promise.

This is why any doctrine making salvation dependent upon possessing Hebrew blood stands in direct conflict with the apostolic teaching.

John says that God's children are born:

“Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
— John 1:13

Therefore, salvation is not determined by ancestry.

It is not determined by DNA.

It is not determined by possessing a particular percentage of Hebrew blood.

God's children are born of God.

The Old and New Testament Saints Are Made Perfect Together​

This unity of God's people is beautifully expressed in Hebrews 11:40:

“God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

The Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints belong to the same ultimate redemptive purpose of God.

They are not two unrelated peoples with two separate hopes.

The believing remnant under the Old Testament and believers in Christ under the New Testament are brought to their fulfillment in the one redemptive purpose of God centered in Christ.

The Church, therefore, is not a replacement invented after God's purposes concerning Israel supposedly failed.

Rather, in Christ, the believing people of God reach the fulfillment and perfection toward which the promises were always moving.

Christ is the promised Seed.

Christ is the true foundation.

Christ gathers His people.

And all who belong to Him—whether Jew or Gentile—are brought into the one redeemed people of God.

So when the New Testament applies Old Testament restoration promises to the salvation and calling of believers in Christ, including Gentiles, we are not “spiritualizing away” Scripture.

We are following the inspired interpretation of the apostles themselves.

The promises were always moving toward Christ.

And in Christ, God gathers His people from among Jews and Gentiles into one body.

The Church is therefore the continuation and fulfillment of the believing people of God—not according to the flesh, but according to the promise and the sovereign grace of God.

“God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
— Hebrews 11:40

 

[Yahshua]

I'm back. Entering busy season at work.

As a prophesy Deuteronomy 30 fits well into the time of the second temple restoration.
If we interpret into modern times we must also assume that God has still bound a group of people to the law of Moses.
If that was the case the group would also be bound to the curses for disobeying the law.
Yet thankfully that is not what God is doing.

Let's explore this.

Can we agree that those who do not accept Christ are still under the law (of Moses)? It's why we say we're all guilty outside of faith in Christ. Now, drilling deeper, in Galatians, Paul warns that if the Jews continued to justify themselves by the law - after Christ - that they are indebted to the whole law (i.e., the law [of Moses] still applies to them).

Just because Christ came and died doesn't mean the law of Moses was invalidated. Christ Himself emphasized it before dying ("I have not come to destroy the law or the prophets..."). People are required to first believe in Christ to be freed from the law's curses. It doesn't just happen automatically., can we agree?

And it is a verifiable fact that those people currently in the law do not believe in Messiah. So consequently, they remain under the curses for disobeying the law.

-----

Next, by the time of the temple restoration, the blessings and the curses of Deuteronomy 28 had not been fully completed, so Deuteronomy 30 couldn't happen yet. Specifically, they were to be scattered to the four corners of the world before regathering. The Jews returned from Babylonian captivity (the neighboring kingdom) to build the second temple and restore Jerusalem under the decree of Artaxerxes.

The mediator of the Mosaic was the man Moses, and it was confirmed by the blood of animals.
It was not made with the whole world, but with the 12 tribes of national Israel, on whom Moses sprinkled the blood.
The New covenant is built on a more secure foundation than that.
The mediator was God Himself, sealing it in His own blood for people of the whole earth.
The Mosaic covenant was also bound to failure, as predicted by Moses himself, yet Jesus alone obeyed it.
Just as Jesus was the reason the Mosaic covenant existed, He was also the reason that old covenant Israel ever existed

Yes, the new covenant REPLACED the old covenant.
That means that there is a far better thing available to the Jews than national Israel.

Amen...but it is only activated upon acceptance of it through belief in the Messiah. It doesn't happen automatically, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Yahshua]

Blinded for a time... sigh, I'm glad He knows what He's doing because too many Christians don't seem to know even after they read it.

In this, we fully agree. Completely clueless. Even basic logic and grammar seems difficult.

Basic present-tense question of current status: Have those who claim to be Israel turned back to obedience with their whole hearts? At any point in recorded history since 70AD? Yes or no?

Did the Almighty irrevocably promise to fulfill His word WHEN they turn back to obedience, or before they did so, or regardless of whether they did or did not turn back to obedience according to Deuteronomy 30?

It's really as simple as this. But no doubt these questions will be avoided like the plague because it breaks the strong indoctrination.

No, they do not, that is a lie, flat out.




About what?





No, another lie as big as the first one.




All lies, should have saved myself the bother and bundled them together. smh

Denial is a river that runs deep in the land of bondage.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Denial is a river that runs deep in the land of bondage.

There's a truth, sadly.

 

[brightfame52]

Are made to be realized in the Church ! cont

John in Rev 2:17 which reads:


17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Is promising to the church which are overcomer's a new name. This is a clear reference to the prediction or prophecy in Isa 62:2

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Also vs Isa 65:15

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Israel's future royal status and restoration to God, are being here applied to the Church, individual members of it 5

 

[rogerg]

Some subscribe to what is known as replacement theology. They reject the idea that God has any purpose for the modern nation of Israel. I find this patently absurd, for reasons I've already stated.

This morning I was listening to the late Derek Prince, who was literally there at the rebirth of the nation of Israel. He knows the scriptures as well as anyone, and better than most. He quoted one that I've overlooked to date and that answers a claim made by superessionists.

In the book of Revelation, John was receiving a vision of the last days. Most scholars believe this was written about 95 AD. Jesus was well and truly ascended, glorified and ruling and reigning. This is how Jesus is described: (Revelation 5:5)

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Replacement theology has no place in a believer's life. It can lead to antisemitism, as many Jews found to their cost. Salvation is still of the Jews. To show contempt for Israel is to belittle God's plan for that nation. We should be supporting Israel with our prayers and, if we able, with practical help. The world hastens to condemn Israel for Gaza's situation, ignoring the fact that the people of Gaza brought it on themselves. Many Israelis have lost their homes because of missile attacks, farmland has been destroyed and many farms were abandoned because of constant attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas.

I do not hear of aid convoys pouring into Israel. I do hear the constant lies about aid centres been shot at by the IDF. The reality is that Hamas has murdered many who seek food for themselves and their families. Hamas seeks to control aid distribution. They profit from it by selling it and they steal it to feed their fighters.

The world is under the control of Satan. We should not be surprised if the world hates Israel. As the church, we should know better.

The nation of Israel, including the commonwealth of Israel, and the physical genetic line that inhabited it, were never intended by God to be the true spiritual Israel, but an example He created as a reflection of the true heavenly, spiritual Israel and spiritual Jews. We see this plainly in Hebrews 8:5 where we are told that the earthly things are not the true substance, but an example and shadow of heavenly things. The earthly nation was intended by God to demonstrate only a temporary heavenly pattern, but not to be perceived as the permanent reality. The earthly copy was made after the heavenly pattern, not the heavenly after the earthly. By its very nature, a shadow is dark and does not have the light that caused it; it is merely a temporary silhouette pointing directly to the living reality. Since the earthly is a shadow of the heavenly, the true citizens that comprise the heavenly Israel have also been spiritually identified. Romans 2:28-29 explicitly states that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly in the spirit.
Your reliance on physical identifiers fails because the root of David is not physical DNA or earthly borders. The root is Christ, and the tree is His elect corporate body. Ephesians 2:14-15 states that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition and abolished the enmity in His flesh to make in Himself of twain one new man. 1 Peter 2:9-10 explicitly takes the Old Testament titles of national Israel and applies them directly to the New Covenant church, calling them a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and an holy nation. The text states that those who in time past were not a people are now the people of God. Hebrews 8:6 states that Christ has obtained a more excellent ministry and is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. The shadow of an earthly nation has been completely fulfilled by the heavenly substance as we are informed by Scripture.

 

[Komentaja]

Some subscribe to what is known as replacement theology. They reject the idea that God has any purpose for the modern nation of Israel. I find this patently absurd, for reasons I've already stated.

This morning I was listening to the late Derek Prince, who was literally there at the rebirth of the nation of Israel. He knows the scriptures as well as anyone, and better than most. He quoted one that I've overlooked to date and that answers a claim made by superessionists.

In the book of Revelation, John was receiving a vision of the last days. Most scholars believe this was written about 95 AD. Jesus was well and truly ascended, glorified and ruling and reigning. This is how Jesus is described: (Revelation 5:5)

Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Replacement theology has no place in a believer's life. It can lead to antisemitism, as many Jews found to their cost. Salvation is still of the Jews. To show contempt for Israel is to belittle God's plan for that nation. We should be supporting Israel with our prayers and, if we able, with practical help. The world hastens to condemn Israel for Gaza's situation, ignoring the fact that the people of Gaza brought it on themselves. Many Israelis have lost their homes because of missile attacks, farmland has been destroyed and many farms were abandoned because of constant attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas.

I do not hear of aid convoys pouring into Israel. I do hear the constant lies about aid centres been shot at by the IDF. The reality is that Hamas has murdered many who seek food for themselves and their families. Hamas seeks to control aid distribution. They profit from it by selling it and they steal it to feed their fighters.

The world is under the control of Satan. We should not be surprised if the world hates Israel. As the church, we should know better.

Believe it or not but I didnt even know that what is called "supercessionism" or "replacement theology" even existed when I first believed in Jesus. I grew up in a Lutheran country and Israel was just never really spoken of so you cant say I was brainwashed by some dispensationalist churches, I never read the Bible but when I started to do so I never for a second believed in replacement theology.

I say this to tell everyone here that so called replacement theology is not something you get by just locking yourself into a room with the Lord in prayer and reading the Bible. You get that by having someone tell you that somehow the Church has always existed and really Israel and the Church are somehow the same, even though most of Israel is currently an enemy of the Gospel and Jesus said I *will* build my Church, future tense, and He started building it on pentecost. The assembly of the OT has nothing to do with the Spirit dwelt Church since Pentecost.

 

[Komentaja]

We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because the Body of Christ is or are the Children of God, which also is Israel. Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16

Is the Church an enemy of the Gospel? Is the Church partially blinded? Is the Church yet to welcome the Lord?

 

[Gideon300]

We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because the Body of Christ is or are the Children of God, which also is Israel. Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

This is both jew and gentile believers with the Spirit in them testifying within them that they are the children of God.

Now in Rom 9 Paul in contrasting two Israels identifies one of them as being the children of God apart from the other 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now who cant see that the Children of God in this context refers to one of the Israel's in Vs 6

Then in Jn 11 we have the children of God being identified as Israel, Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

These are the same children of God in Rom 8:16 which is the Church, the Body of Christ, them with the Spirit of God in them Rom 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And if the Children of God they are also heirs. The same heirs that pertain to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 14

Try reading Romans 11. You can make the Bible say almost anything if you are selective enough and ensure that you ignore anything that contradicts your specious reasoning.

 

[Gideon300]

The nation of Israel, including the commonwealth of Israel, and the physical genetic line that inhabited it, were never intended by God to be the true spiritual Israel, but an example He created as a reflection of the true heavenly, spiritual Israel and spiritual Jews. We see this plainly in Hebrews 8:5 where we are told that the earthly things are not the true substance, but an example and shadow of heavenly things. The earthly nation was intended by God to demonstrate only a temporary heavenly pattern, but not to be perceived as the permanent reality. The earthly copy was made after the heavenly pattern, not the heavenly after the earthly. By its very nature, a shadow is dark and does not have the light that caused it; it is merely a temporary silhouette pointing directly to the living reality. Since the earthly is a shadow of the heavenly, the true citizens that comprise the heavenly Israel have also been spiritually identified. Romans 2:28-29 explicitly states that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly in the spirit.
Your reliance on physical identifiers fails because the root of David is not physical DNA or earthly borders. The root is Christ, and the tree is His elect corporate body. Ephesians 2:14-15 states that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition and abolished the enmity in His flesh to make in Himself of twain one new man. 1 Peter 2:9-10 explicitly takes the Old Testament titles of national Israel and applies them directly to the New Covenant church, calling them a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and an holy nation. The text states that those who in time past were not a people are now the people of God. Hebrews 8:6 states that Christ has obtained a more excellent ministry and is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. The shadow of an earthly nation has been completely fulfilled by the heavenly substance as we are informed by Scripture.

Believe what you like, Israel exists, like it or not. It is there according to God's promises. It will remain until there is a new heaven and new earth. Maybe it bugs you that a nation of sinners and rebels should be shown mercy and grace by God. Paul warns believers against such an attitude. Read Romans 11. I know it does not fit your doctrine, but its in your Bible too.​

 

[rogerg]

Believe what you like, Israel exists, like it or not. It is there according to God's promises. It will remain until there is a new heaven and new earth. Maybe it bugs you that a nation of sinners and rebels should be shown mercy and grace by God. Paul warns believers against such an attitude. Read Romans 11. I know it does not fit your doctrine, but its in your Bible too.​

You did not answer a single scripture or argument I actually posted. I never denied that a physical nation exists on earth today. My post proved from Hebrews 8:5 that physical earthly things are a temporary shadow, but that a heavenly substance has fulfilled that shadow. You completely bypassed Hebrews 8:5, Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:14-15, and 1 Peter 2:9-10 because your belief has no answer for them. You are the one ignoring Romans 11 because you refuse to recognize that the Root of that tree is Christ, not physical lineage nor an earthly nation. Pointing to a modern nation does not erase what Scripture tells us.

 

[Gideon300]

You did not answer a single scripture or argument I actually posted. I never denied that a physical nation exists on earth today. My post proved from Hebrews 8:5 that physical earthly things are a temporary shadow, but that a heavenly substance has fulfilled that shadow. You completely bypassed Hebrews 8:5, Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:14-15, and 1 Peter 2:9-10 because your belief has no answer for them. You are the one ignoring Romans 11 because you refuse to recognize that the Root of that tree is Christ, not physical lineage nor an earthly nation. Pointing to a modern nation does not erase what Scripture tells us.

My point is that God's covenant with the nation of Israel still stands. It is also that Israel exists according to God's will and purpose, that is yet to be completed.

 

[rogerg]

My point is that God's covenant with the nation of Israel still stands. It is also that Israel exists according to God's will and purpose, that is yet to be completed.

Gideon, you did not answer a single scripture or argument I posted. You completely bypassed Hebrews 8:5, Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:14-15, and 1 Peter 2:9-10 because you have no answer for them. For your theory to be correct, God would have to execute two entirely different salvation plans simultaneously. One plan would be based upon sovereign grace for the elect, and another separate one would be necessary for the salvation of a different group based solely on their physical, human lineage. That is a theological impossibility based upon Scripture - God has only one pathway to salvation. John 1:13 explicitly states that being born into God's covenant has absolutely nothing to do with blood or the will of the flesh. Galatians 3:28-29 states that there is neither Jew nor Greek, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. We become Abraham's spiritual seed, not by having been his physical seed, but by having been chosen in Christ Jesus from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Your belief makes physical lineage the singular requirement of one of the salvation plans you propose instead of it being solely and exclusively by God's grace through Jesus Christ, Savior for all who are to become saved.

---

 

[brightfame52]

Is the Church an enemy of the Gospel?

By Nature yes. Paul who was saul who is part of the Church, before converted was an enemy of the Gospel. And so its with all sinners regardless of ethnicity.

 

[brightfame52]

All jews are not Jews cp Rom 9:6

Rev 3:9

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Now this verse is enlightening, if we have eyes to see, Jesus assures the church in Philadelphia what He will make these pretended jews do, and it does not consult their so called freewill !

There are two good points here being made, Jesus says about those "who say they are jews, but lie [also see Rev 2:9] It would appear that in one sense these people are jews, the physical descendants of the Patriarchs, who met in the synagouges to worship, remember Jesus addressed a similar crowd during His ministry Jn 8:37, but in another sense, inwardly and spiritually they are not jews, not believers in The True Messiah, and perhaps persecutors of those who do believe in Him as per 1 Thess 2:13-15.

These Jews are said instead to be the synagogue of satan. True Jews belong to Christ, the seed of Abraham [see Gal 3:29] for you see Paul writes:

Rom 2:28-29


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The word jew here is the greek word Ioudaios and its used in this sense:

the word is used of ideal Jews, i.e., Jews in spiritual reality, believers, whether Jews or Gentiles by natural birth.

This Judaism is of the heart, and it cannot be limited to believing jews but does graft in believing gentiles, this clear from Paul's statement to the Philippians Phil 3:3


3 For we [believers] are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Worshiping God in Spirit and rejoicing in Christ Jesus is not limited to ethnic jews.. So John in writing Rev 3:9 is giving us to understand that Jesus distinguishes between literal jews, and spiritual jews or Spiritual Israel, the Spiritual seed of Abraham. Thats why Paul also writes Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 5

 

[brightfame52]

Continuing from previous post as we look at how some OT predictions regarding God's Covenant People Israel, are Being applied to the NT Church, proving the Church existed in the OT, and that Israel, the True one, is the Church, just having been expanded to include some gentiles.

We see how Rev 3:9 has its roots in OT prophecy , Isa 60:14

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 45:14

14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isa 49:23

23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

Now in all these scriptures, its the gentiles who are to bow before Israel, whereas in Rev 3:9 its jews who will bow before the gentile Church

Interestingly in Isa 60:14 they [the gentiles] will call them [Jews] the city of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel ! Is not that what we see in Rev 3:12

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

And the title Jesus identifies Himself with to the Church of Philadelphia is the Holy One hence the link with Isa 60 !

The words 'They will know that I have loved thee " can be compared to Isa 43:4

4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

This gives us to understand, that John saw in the Church the realization and fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecies. 5

 

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We are demonstrating how the promises to Israel are being applied to the Church, hence linking them as the same.

Rev 7:15 states of the saints in The Heavenly Temple :

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This scripture clearly seems to be a reference to Ezk 37:26-28

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

This connection appears to be true when we also look at Rev 21:3

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. cp with vs 27 of Ezk 37

And this is followed by Rev 21:4,6

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

By the same OT references found Rev 7:16-17

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So we have the innumerable multitude of the Church, redeemed by the Blood, as being the fulfillment of a Prophecy regarding Israel's latter day restoration, we have an application of Ezk 37:27 to the redeemed Church.

Rev 7:16 is a fulfillment of Isa 49:10

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Also another prophetic promise to Israel's restoration is applied to the church i.e Isa 25:8

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


Rev 7:17

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All these are strong scriptural support for the Redeemed Church being the restored Israel.