Replacement theology? Yes or No.

OMC said:

Brother, nothing I said depends on “Paul’s resurrection” or on confusing Lazarus’s sign‑miracle with glorification; you already affirmed they’re different, and I’m agreeing with you.
The reason John 11–12 treats Lazarus’s resurrection as mortal is because the narrative itself keeps Lazarus inside the normal conditions of mortal life — he eats a meal (John 12:2), he is a target for murder (John 12:10), and he is used as a sign to provoke belief, not as a preview of the final resurrection; glorified saints are never described as eating dinner in Bethany or being threatened by assassins.
When Jesus says, “He who lives and believes in Me shall never die,” He is not redefining Lazarus’s condition; He is declaring the eschatological promise of eternal life, the same promise He gives in John 6, John 10, and John 14 — and He immediately asks Martha, “Do you believe this?” because He is grounding her hope in future resurrection, not claiming Lazarus’s present state is immortal.
Your point that Scripture never states Lazarus died again is true, but Scripture also never states Enoch remained alive on earth — silence is not evidence, and the only resurrection Scripture ties to immortality is the one at Christ’s appearing (John 6:39–40; 1 Cor 15:23).
So the claim “Lazarus died again” is not dogma; it is simply the only conclusion consistent with the fact that Lazarus was restored to ordinary human life, not transformed into the imperishable life Paul describes.

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Brother, nothing I said depends on “Paul’s resurrection” or on confusing Lazarus’s sign‑miracle with glorification; you already affirmed they’re different, and I’m agreeing with you. “

“on confusing Lazarus’s sign‑miracle with glorification;”

Yes I understand you think Lazarus’s bekng raised was a “ sign miracle “ and he “ died twice “ I don’t agree

“The reason John 11–12 treats Lazarus’s resurrection as mortal is because the narrative itself keeps Lazarus inside the normal conditions of mortal life — he eats a meal (John 12:2), he is a target for murder (John 12:10), and he is used as a sign to provoke belief, not as a preview of the final resurrection”

again I don’t see that telling us anything other than Lazarus ate a meal and some wanted him dead …….none of that changes anything but again you’ve certainly expressed your opinion and I respect it

“When Jesus says, “He who lives and believes in Me shall never die,” He is not redefining Lazarus’s condition;”

No one said he was you had said those chapters infer only a mortal temporary miraculous sign ….. so I said Jesus is saying I am the resurrection and life anyone who believes even if they were dead shall live and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die “

The point was it really doesn’t at all shape anything as “ temporary “ or make any suggestion or even hint that Lazarus “died a second time . “ none of that’s even there in my opinion loosely even a hint . So i understand we differ on that alot is depending on what you are assuming and then stating as fact

“ Your point that Scripture never states Lazarus died again is true, but Scripture also never states Enoch remained alive on earth “

i never said he did lol my point was Enoch didn’t die he was translated from the earth …….. the point was there’s another place where living people can be with god beyond death

theres never going to be any permanent life on this earth it’s doomed already by gods word you are missing about 75 percent of what I’ve said and then arguing against what I haven’t said …..
“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:9‬ ‭

Pilgrimshope said:

theres never going to be any permanent life on this earth it’s doomed already by gods word you are missing about 75 percent of what I’ve said and then arguing against what I haven’t said …..
“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:9‬ ‭

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That view comes from Ancient Greek philosophy which has sadly infiltrated the church. Jesus tells us that "the meek" "shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5

WayneNSO said:

That view comes from Ancient Greek philosophy which has sadly infiltrated the church. Jesus tells us that "the meek" "shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5

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Yeah I mean the new earth new earth he’s creating sure

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. …


…But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


…..Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But where are these people who had been redeemed from the earth until the restoration of a new earth ?

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. ( they aren’t on earth )……. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where are those men ? They aren’t on earth right they’ve already been redeemed from
It and they’re all isralites but they are somewhere right ? Are there sporits of just men made perfect in heavens kingdom ? Gods true city ?

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Men will Inherit the new earth at this point


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, ( this is when the restoration will happen ) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some can’t hear the new because they’re staring at the old

There are people in heaven already with Jesus…. We’re not at the end yet that’s when the inheritance will be given in a new and better world

Pilgrimshope said:

Thanks for sharing your views it’s a good read through to consider.

“Beasts generally represent empires, heads represent kings and horns represent provincial rulers”

did you notice the ten crowns on the horns ?

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So if Nero is the sixth head here

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past ) and one is,( johns present ) and the other is not yet come; ( johns future ) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Nero is six , who would be the seventh ?

did you notice this johns hearing how this will happen .

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then sees this

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

……,And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:11-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then sees this

“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason I’m highlighting this is I’m wondering do you think this is about the first generation of the church ? Or the last ?

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In a general sense the beast out of the sea (Revelations 13:1) represents Rome, compared to a leopard, bear, and lion, ie all three previous empires discussed in Daniel 7.
Yet in a specific sense the beast in this passage (vs.5-8) represents Nero.
It was Nero who persecuted the church for 3.5 years ("forty and two months"v.5).

Yes, I think Nero is the sixth head.
The seventh head is Galba, who continued for only 7 months, ie "when he cometh he must continue but a short space" (17:10).
Some argue that there were other "emperors" in the shamozzle that followed that, continuing even shorter, but they were warring rebels rather than actual emperors.

I think the answer to the 10 crowns on the horns (provincial leaders) represents the power as kings that they are yet to receive under the Flavian Dynasty, but I am shooting from the hip here and want to take more time to check it out.

In Revelations 17:11-14 we are introduces to the Flavian dynasty (8th beast), beginning with Vespasian.
The rulers under Vespasian are authorized to capture and kill Christians i.e. "make war with the lamb".

It is evident in the first 5 verses of chapter 19 that we are still hearing about the judgement of the great whore (Jerusalem), and that puts us still in the first century.
Notice that by the end of this chapter we have been told the story of the destruction of Jerusalem 3 times.
Jesus (white horse) is personally involved.
So what is the marriage supper of the lamb doing here when everybody tells us that it is future?
The answer is that Jesus and His bride are already married!

2Corinthians 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Written before the destruction of Jerusalem, and the bride is 'espoused" i.e. engaged.

Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Written after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Notice that the marriage is COME, not coming.

I am relatively new to this approach to Revelations, and still a bit excited about it, so I appreciate your questions and corrections where needed.
I would like to extend that invitation only to you, but as I have already written about it on this forum, probably don't have that luxury.

cv5 said:

Oh and FYI friend:
The Day of Atonement, feast of Trumpets, and feast of Tabernacles is proof positive beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt of the certain inevitable restoration of the Kingdom to Israel.

Of course you do not understand why. But this is not at all unexpected given your sentiment and state of being.

Click to expand...

If you say things 100 times, you definitely convinced yourself.

But it is not the truth.

Enjoy yourself.

Pilgrimshope said:

You sort of keep demanding new details be present in everything I’ve shown you in Israel’s covenant that they were promised a resurrection when the messiah came and then shown you it happening in the gospel to israelite saints who had been buried

……and no incorruptable bodies is about the last resurrection at the end of the new covenant when the new things willl be fulfilled they are spiritual bodies

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No spiritual bodies, no real resurrection decribed in 1 Cor. 15; no real resurrection, no rapture.

Churchgoer said:

If you say things 100 times, you definitely convinced yourself.

But it is not the truth.

Enjoy yourself.

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Truth? The truth is that you have not the slightest idea of what I am talking about.
Consequently you have no answer.

And yes, I am definitely right. Again.

Lucky me huh?

Beekeeper said:

Do you really think you are saving yourself by your theology?
I already knew that you were a bit smug, but this takes it to a whole different level!
Are you sure your not the Antichrist?

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According to you, he came and went. So it cannot be me.

cv5 said:

Truth? The truth is that you have not the slightest idea of what I am talking about.
Consequently you have no answer.

And yes, I am definitely right. Again.

Lucky me huh?

Click to expand...

People like me don't believe in luck.

We also just focus on the truth. Other than that all notices, better tune out.

Just focus on Jesus. Choose this day who you want to focus.

cv5 said:

According to you, he came and went. So it cannot be me.

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You sure sound like a devil though..
False teachers deny the Lord who bought them, introduce destructive heresies, and twist Scripture to fit their own ideas; they speak visions from their own hearts instead of God’s Word, appeal to the flesh with smooth speech, and draw disciples after themselves rather than toward Christ. They reject apostolic doctrine, promise freedom while producing slavery, and their lives show corrupt fruit — greed, sensuality, arrogance, rebellion. Scripture’s pattern is consistent: false teachers distort the gospel, corrupt the church, and destroy souls by replacing God’s Word with their own imagination.
What do they teach?
Paul says “doctrines of devils” (1 Tim 4:1) are teachings that originate not from God but from deceiving spirits, and they always follow the same pattern: they depart from the faith, deny what God created as good, forbid what God permits, permit what God forbids, and replace the gospel with asceticism or license. They come through hypocritical liars whose consciences are seared, meaning they teach with spiritual deadness and moral numbness. These doctrines always twist Scripture, deny Christ’s sufficiency, appeal to the flesh, and enslave people while promising freedom. In short, “doctrines of devils” are teachings that contradict God’s Word, corrupt God’s people, and redirect worship away from Christ toward human rules, spiritual experiences, or moral license.

Hum...

Lovette said:

What's so obvious is the emperor's new clothes, you have no answer at all, as much as there's no "zeroth" pretrib resurrection of the saints at all.

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As you know, I do have the answers, practically all of them as regards this topic, and have provided them.
However, the persistent failure to understand them and outright denial of them is your problem and not mine.

So then, exegete these passages......if you are able.
Tell us precisely in long format using the entire Bible (including the prophets) as reference what this heresy is speaking about.
These three passages ALONE are worthy of a large manuscript. But for you, a paragraph or two will have to do.

2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The Greek there, ἐνέστηκεν (enestēken), is stronger than merely “near”; it can mean “has come / is present.” So the Thessalonians were being told that an eschatological event was already underway when Paul insists it was still future.

Beekeeper said:

In a general sense the beast out of the sea (Revelations 13:1) represents Rome, compared to a leopard, bear, and lion, ie all three previous empires discussed in Daniel 7.
Yet in a specific sense the beast in this passage (vs.5-8) represents Nero.
It was Nero who persecuted the church for 3.5 years ("forty and two months"v.5).

Yes, I think Nero is the sixth head.
The seventh head is Galba, who continued for only 7 months, ie "when he cometh he must continue but a short space" (17:10).
Some argue that there were other "emperors" in the shamozzle that followed that, continuing even shorter, but they were warring rebels rather than actual emperors.

I think the answer to the 10 crowns on the horns (provincial leaders) represents the power as kings that they are yet to receive under the Flavian Dynasty, but I am shooting from the hip here and want to take more time to check it out.

In Revelations 17:11-14 we are introduces to the Flavian dynasty (8th beast), beginning with Vespasian.
The rulers under Vespasian are authorized to capture and kill Christians i.e. "make war with the lamb".

It is evident in the first 5 verses of chapter 19 that we are still hearing about the judgement of the great whore (Jerusalem), and that puts us still in the first century.
Notice that by the end of this chapter we have been told the story of the destruction of Jerusalem 3 times.
Jesus (white horse) is personally involved.
So what is the marriage supper of the lamb doing here when everybody tells us that it is future?
The answer is that Jesus and His bride are already married!

2Corinthians 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Written before the destruction of Jerusalem, and the bride is 'espoused" i.e. engaged.

Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Written after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Notice that the marriage is COME, not coming.

I am relatively new to this approach to Revelations, and still a bit excited about it, so I appreciate your questions and corrections where needed.
I would like to extend that invitation only to you, but as I have already written about it on this forum, probably don't have that luxury.

Click to expand...

amen I love this whole entire post it’s rich with information to investigate I appreciate you . I don’t have corrections but sometimes discussions from differing aspects of details


“Notice that by the end of this chapter we have been told the story of the destruction of Jerusalem 3 times.“


Amen they are layers of apacolypse rather than a linear timeline like the visions of the seals , trumpets and vials !

Revelation Is showing a much less complex story than seems but it’s showing it several times from differing perspectives

talk later alligator

cv5 said:

As you know, I do have the answers, practically all of them as regards this topic, and have provided them.
However, the persistent failure to understand them and outright denial of them is your problem and not mine.

So then, exegete these passages......if you are able.
Tell us precisely in long format using the entire Bible (including the prophets) as reference what this heresy is speaking about.
These three passages ALONE are worthy of a large manuscript. But for you, a paragraph or two will have to do.

2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The Greek there, ἐνέστηκεν (enestēken), is stronger than merely “near”; it can mean “has come / is present.” So the Thessalonians were being told that an eschatological event was already underway when Paul insists it was still future.

Click to expand...

Paul names the heresy plainly: Hymenaeus and Philetus taught that the resurrection was already past, meaning they preached a realized eschatology that collapsed future bodily resurrection into a spiritualized, already‑happened event.
Didn't take a whole manuscript to glean that.

OMC said:

Paul names the heresy plainly: Hymenaeus and Philetus taught that the resurrection was already past, meaning they preached a realized eschatology that collapsed future bodily resurrection into a spiritualized, already‑happened event.
Didn't take a whole manuscript to glean that.

Click to expand...

That was awful, infantile and trivial. You get a failing grade.
Next.

cv5 said:

That was awful, infantile and trivial. You get a failing grade.
Next.

Click to expand...

"as reference what this heresy is speaking about"
I answered the question posed, if you had other intentions then maybe share them with rest of the class.

OMC said:

"as reference what this heresy is speaking about"
I answered the question posed, if you had other intentions then maybe share them with rest of the class.

Click to expand...

You just don't "get it" man. I doubt anybody on this thread does either.
OK, I'm sure nobody else "gets it".

Other than perhaps our dear brother @Komentaja . Eyes wide open this person. This is good. Very rare, but very good.

This key element permeates ALL OF SCRIPTURE, OT PROPHETS......EVERYTHING everywhere all the time.

"as that the day of Christ is at hand"
But you didn't know that, nor do you know that these few passages alone absolutely confirm the pre-trib rapture beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt. But this conclusion is patently obvious ONLY to those who enjoy this status:

Mat 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

cv5 said:

You have no answer, your mouth is stopped. To this or anything else that I post. Frankly it would be a waste of ink to even try.

Oh and BTW, @OMC blithely (and ignorantly) opined earlier of how the Revelation 19 host were exclusively angels. This is far from the Biblically accurate truth of course.

The exegetical case that the "armies in heaven" (\tau\dot\alpha\ \sigma\tau\rho\alpha\tau\epsilon\acute\upsilon\mu\alpha\tau\alpha\ \tau\dot\alpha\ \grave\epsilon\nu\ \tau\tilde\omega\ \mathrm{o}\dot\upsilon\rho\alpha\nu\tilde\omega) in Revelation 19:14 include the glorified Church—rather than exclusively angels—rests on five primary textual arguments within dispensational scholarship:

1. The "Fine Linen" Exegetical Link (Rev 19:8 vs. Rev 19:14)
Just six verses before the armies descend, John explicitly defines fine linen: "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints" (Rev 19:8). In verse 14, the heavenly armies return clothed in this exact same garment (bussinon, white and clean). Nowhere in Revelation are angels described as wearing the bussinon of saintly righteousness; that specific attire is the structural signature of the redeemed Bride.

2. Revelation 17:14 Directly Names the Companions
In the parallel victory passage of Revelation 17:14, the army accompanying the Lamb is explicitly identified: "Those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Across the New Testament, angels are never designated as "called" (klētoi) or "faithful" (pistoi)—these are exclusive designations for redeemed human believers (Romans 1:6, Revelation 2:10).

3. The Plurality of "Armies" (Strateumata)
John specifically uses the plural noun ta strateumata ("the armies in heaven"). While angels certainly accompany Christ (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7), the plural form allows for distinct divisions within the heavenly host—encompassing both the angelic ranks and the translated, resurrected Church.

4. Clear Epistolic Promises of Returning With Christ
New Testament epistles explicitly promise that the glorified Church will accompany Christ at His Second Coming appearance:
* Colossians 3:4: "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."
* 1 Thessalonians 3:13: "At the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints."
* Jude 14: "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints."

5. Chronological Sequence in Revelation 19
In Revelation 19:6–9, the marriage of the Lamb occurs in heaven before the rider on the white horse sets out in verse 11. Having already been raptured, judged at the Bema Seat, and clothed in fine linen, the Bride is already present in heaven and naturally accompanies the Bridegroom as He descends to establish His kingdom.

Click to expand...

Yeah that argument that its talking about angels is a really bad one cause as you said: They are given fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints. Plus earlier in the book we have mention of CROWNS, which are given to us when? Yeah. Its given to those who love His appearing.

Thanks for #2 I will add that to my arsenal didn't even think of that.

Its just so bullet proof, what can we say? I can answer from experience why people dont admit these once initially confronted. Its due to either confusion which is was for me first, then that turns into pride, you refuse to admit you were wrong. But I believe many will still admit they were wrong.

cv5 said:

You just don't "get it" man. I doubt anybody on this thread does either.
OK, I'm sure nobody else "gets it".

Other than perhaps our dear brother @Komentaja . Eyes wide open this person. This is good. Very rare, but very good.

This key element permeates ALL OF SCRIPTURE, OT PROPHETS......EVERYTHING everywhere all the time.

"as that the day of Christ is at hand"
But you didn't know that, nor do you know that these few passages alone absolutely confirm the pre-trib rapture beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt. But this conclusion is patently obvious ONLY to those who enjoy this status:

Mat 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Click to expand...

CV5, your claim that 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:17–18 “absolutely confirm the pre‑trib rapture beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt” is the very thing Paul is correcting, not teaching. The Thessalonians were told the Day of Christ had already arrived — ἐνέστηκεν — and Paul says that is false because the Day cannot arrive until the apostasia and the man of sin appear; that is a denial of realized eschatology, not a proof of pre‑trib. Likewise, Hymenaeus and Philetus taught that the resurrection is past, and Paul calls it heresy because it destroys the believer’s hope; again, that is a correction of premature eschatology, not a defense of your system. You keep treating these passages as if Paul is whispering secret confirmation to those with “blessed eyes,” but Jesus blesses disciples who hear His words, not interpreters who claim private revelation. The texts do not teach pre‑trib; they teach that the resurrection and the Day are future, visible, bodily, and unmistakable, and that any teacher who says they are already present is in error.
Kobayashi Maru

cv5 said:

As you know, I do have the answers, practically all of them as regards this topic, and have provided them.

Click to expand...

No you don't. 2Ti 2:18 has actually proven my point, that theresurrection is still in the future, any teaching that claims it's already happen has "strayed from the truth". It's scheduled in Rev. 20:1-5, post trib.

Pilgrimshope said:

Ahh I see duel fulfillments for certain prophecies …..where does the Bible say anything about this prophecy being bc filled twice ? That seems like imagination

I’m having a hard time following your logic in your arguments


“Otherwise you're saying Elijah's job had to fix 2 thousand years of returning back to God or he would "strike the earth with a curse". Kind of hard to do when you're dead.”

what ?no it says god would strike the earth with a curse not Elijah…..but No what I did was show you the end of the prophets of Israel promising Elijah would come before the messiah and messenger of the new covenant ….. then about 300 years later I showed you Jesus coming to isreal telling isralites “ he is the Elijah who was to come if you have ears hear me “

But I’ve learned that sometimes no matter what the Bible says people tend to explain why it doesn’t mean what it says and “ here’s why “ but they never have any scripture saying what they are saying …..

Click to expand...

I don't really know how else to say it because I highlighted the words that I'm zeroing in on and explained it. So in this instance, I'm going to use AI because maybe it can explain my point better.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
What I understand her argument to be is this:

The issue is not whether John the Baptist fulfilled an Elijah-type role. Scripture clearly says that he did. The issue is whether John the Baptist necessarily exhausted everything Malachi 4:5–6 was referring to.

There is a textual reason to question that.

In Matthew 17:10, the disciples ask Jesus why the scribes say Elijah must come first. Jesus answers in verse 11:

“Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.”

That statement is future in form.

Then in the very next verse Jesus says:

“But I say unto you, That Elias is come already…”

And Matthew explains that the disciples understood Him to be referring to John the Baptist.

So within the same conversation Jesus can speak of Elijah as both having already come in John and coming/restoring all things.

Luke 1:17 helps explain how John fulfills the Elijah role: John comes “in the spirit and power of Elias.” John therefore fulfills the Elijah pattern without literally being Elijah, which also explains why John can truthfully answer “I am not” when asked directly whether he is Elijah in John 1:21.

The other issue is Malachi's timing language. Malachi 4:5 does not merely say Elijah will come before the Messiah appears. It specifically says:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”

That wording matters. The “Day of the LORD” throughout the prophets is strongly associated with divine judgment, and Malachi immediately follows the Elijah prophecy with the warning that God could strike the land with a curse.

Therefore, the argument is not simply, “I have decided this prophecy happens twice.” The argument is that Scripture itself gives reasons to distinguish between John's historical Elijah-role and the full scope of Malachi's prophecy.

This kind of layered fulfillment is also not foreign to Scripture. A prophecy can have an earlier historical realization without that exhausting everything the prophecy ultimately points toward.

The abomination of desolation is an example of that pattern. Daniel gives the prophecy, historical events partially resemble or fulfill that imagery, and yet Jesus later refers His own hearers back to Daniel and speaks of an abomination of desolation that they still needed to watch for. That means an earlier fulfillment does not automatically prevent later prophetic application.

So the real question is not, “Where does the Bible use the phrase dual fulfillment?” It doesn't need to use that theological label. The question is whether Scripture itself sometimes reapplies or extends an earlier prophecy into a later fulfillment. It clearly does.

And regarding the statement about the curse: she was not saying Elijah personally strikes the earth. Malachi plainly says God does that. Her point was that Elijah's assigned work is positioned immediately before that threatened judgment. If John completely exhausted the prophecy roughly two thousand years before the final Day-of-the-LORD setting being discussed, then the timing language becomes something that still has to be explained.

So I don't think her argument is that Scripture “doesn't mean what it says.” Her argument is actually based on taking all of the relevant statements seriously at once: John fulfilled an Elijah role, Jesus says Elijah had already come, Jesus also speaks of Elijah as coming and restoring all things, and Malachi places Elijah before the great and dreadful Day of the LORD.