Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

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Davidstarr said:
The resurrection of the wicked. The 2nd resurrection of Rev 20. These are the ones Satan deceives AFTER the 1,000 years are finished.
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But this resurrection happens AFTER satan and his followers are destroyed by fire attempting to attack the camp of the Saints and Jerusalem..

Revelation 20:10 - Revelation 20:15
(Revelation 20:10-15) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. {11} And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So satan and God and Magog are dealt with before the great white throne judgement is carried out..



Davidstarr said:
Joel 3:9-17 shows this exact same event:
The wicked are resurrected (awakened out of sleep), they make weapons and surround the New Jerusalem.
God sits and judges them in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (the valley of decision).
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Having read the entire chapter of Joel 3.. it seems to be more likely pointing to the times of the return of the LORD Jesus.. Not 1000 years after at the end of the 1000 years.. i note in it that it says:

Joel 3:7 - Joel 3:8
(Joel 3:7-8) "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: {8} And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it."

This is talking about the people of God having been removed from the promised land and sold.. The LORD will recompense them by causing those who oppressed them to serve them and be sold off to the Sabeans.. Again if all these people are dead then how can they be subjugated and sold off.. How can they be ruled with a Rod of Iron..
 
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OMC said:
Brother,
You keep repeating the same claim, but none of it actually touches the textual point I made.
You’re arguing that the ancient pictographs—the ox and the crossed sticks—carry a divine, Christological meaning that later Hebrew “messed up,” and that John somehow “corrected” the Hebrew Bible by restoring the original pictures.
But that entire framework is not how Scripture works, not how Hebrew works, and not how inspiration works.

Let me say this plainly, without attacking you:
The Bible God inspired was not written in pictographs. It was written in Hebrew words, not pictures.

The “ox” and “crossed sticks” symbols you’re talking about come from proto‑Sinaitic and proto‑Canaanite inscriptions—over a thousand years older than the Hebrew of Moses, David, Isaiah, or Zechariah. Those pictures are archaeological artifacts, not inspired Scripture. They do not carry theological meaning, and they do not override the grammar of the Hebrew Bible.

The particle את in Zechariah 12:10 is not a “signature,” not a Christ‑marker, not a hidden Aleph‑Tav revelation. It is a direct‑object marker—a grammatical tool with no semantic meaning. Every Hebrew scholar, every lexicon, every grammar agrees on this. You can’t build theology on a particle that the language itself says has no meaning.

And John did not “correct” the Hebrew Bible. John quoted the Hebrew meaning faithfully: “They shall look upon Me whom they pierced.”
He wasn’t restoring pictographs.
He wasn’t bypassing the Hebrew alphabet.
He wasn’t rewriting Moses.
He was quoting Scripture, not archaeology.

You keep saying, “Forget the alphabet, there was none.”
But that is simply not true.
The Hebrew alphabet existed long before Zechariah, long before the prophets, long before the Psalms.
The inspired text is Hebrew words, not ancient drawings. If you remove the alphabet, you don’t “restore truth”—you destroy the very form God chose to reveal His Word.

And yes, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and End—but He said that in Greek, because Revelation is written in Greek.
He wasn’t giving a secret code. He wasn’t pointing back to pictographs.
He was declaring His eternal nature in the language of the audience.

Brother, I’m not ignoring you. I’m telling you the truth: You cannot replace the inspired Hebrew text with ancient pictures and call it revelation. You cannot turn a grammatical particle into a Christ‑symbol. You cannot claim John rewrote the Old Testament from pictographs.

If you want to talk about Jesus as the Beginning and the End, I’m with you.
If you want to talk about His eternal nature, I’m with you.
If you want to talk about His identity as Lord and God, I’m with you.

But the Aleph‑Tav pictograph system you’re defending is not Scripture.
It’s a modern typology system built on archaeology, not on the inspired text.
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No code He was there john fixed the greek making its pierced not mocked or taunted because I couldn't imagine the spirit of God being pierced is one view the other view is they made a mistake in the symbol. I could have put it wrong Jonathan fixed the Greek original Old Testament translation . I'm sure the symbols aren't very essence of the beginning symbols pictures whatever they are they were still translated and giving a letter and we're focusing on two letters but this much more in 1:1 here a start
In the oldest form of written Hebrew (known as Proto-Sinaitic or Paleo-Hebrew), every single letter of the alphabet was a literal pictograph—a small drawing of a real-world object.
Because Genesis 1:1 consists of exactly 28 letters, the original written verse was a sequence of 28 pictures.

Examples of the Pictures in the Very First Word
The very first word of the Bible is Bereshit (בְּרֵאשִׁית), meaning "In the beginning." In the original ancient script, its six letters were written as these six pictures:
  • ב (Bet): A picture of a house or tent floor plan, meaning home or inside.
  • ר (Resh): A picture of a man's head, meaning the chief, highest, or first person.
  • א (Aleph): A picture of an ox head, meaning strength, power, or a leader (representing God).
  • ש (Shin): A picture of two front teeth, meaning to consume, destroy, or sharp.
  • י (Yodh): A picture of an arm and hand, meaning work, deed, or power.
  • ת (Taw): A picture of two crossed sticks—the exact cross-mark shape we talked about earlier, meaning a covenant, sign, or monument.
The Word "God" in Pictures
When the ancient writers wrote the name for God (Elohim), the first two letters were Aleph (the ox head/strong leader) and Lamed (a shepherd's staff/authority). To an ancient reader, the very letters used for God's name literally painted a picture of the "Strong Shepherd." I see edycation of men its oj take their test geaduate been been there done that but I had to do it by their rules and the Holy Spirit there is no rules such as men Rules are you with me there ?I noticed you used Christ but it doesn't mean you know the full meaning .
see what saying is Some are waiting on the Messiah to come and few are waiting on the king's return
 
frederickdoc said:
No code He was there john fixed the greek making its pierced not mocked or taunted because I couldn't imagine the spirit of God being pierced is one view the other view is they made a mistake in the symbol. I could have put it wrong Jonathan fixed the Greek original Old Testament translation . I'm sure the symbols aren't very essence of the beginning symbols pictures whatever they are they were still translated and giving a letter and we're focusing on two letters but this much more in 1:1 here a start
In the oldest form of written Hebrew (known as Proto-Sinaitic or Paleo-Hebrew), every single letter of the alphabet was a literal pictograph—a small drawing of a real-world object.
Because Genesis 1:1 consists of exactly 28 letters, the original written verse was a sequence of 28 pictures.

Examples of the Pictures in the Very First Word
The very first word of the Bible is Bereshit (בְּרֵאשִׁית), meaning "In the beginning." In the original ancient script, its six letters were written as these six pictures:
  • ב (Bet): A picture of a house or tent floor plan, meaning home or inside.
  • ר (Resh): A picture of a man's head, meaning the chief, highest, or first person.
  • א (Aleph): A picture of an ox head, meaning strength, power, or a leader (representing God).
  • ש (Shin): A picture of two front teeth, meaning to consume, destroy, or sharp.
  • י (Yodh): A picture of an arm and hand, meaning work, deed, or power.
  • ת (Taw): A picture of two crossed sticks—the exact cross-mark shape we talked about earlier, meaning a covenant, sign, or monument.
The Word "God" in Pictures
When the ancient writers wrote the name for God (Elohim), the first two letters were Aleph (the ox head/strong leader) and Lamed (a shepherd's staff/authority). To an ancient reader, the very letters used for God's name literally painted a picture of the "Strong Shepherd." I see edycation of men its oj take their test geaduate been been there done that but I had to do it by their rules and the Holy Spirit there is no rules such as men Rules are you with me there ?I noticed you used Christ but it doesn't mean you know the full meaning .
see what saying is Some are waiting on the Messiah to come and few are waiting on the king's return
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I hear what you’re saying, but I need to be very clear with you: the pictograph material you’re relying on is not how Scripture defines meaning, and it’s not how the biblical authors understood their own language. Yes, the earliest Proto‑Sinaitic inscriptions used pictographic shapes, but by the time Moses wrote Genesis, Hebrew was not pictographic — it was a phonetic alphabet. The letters no longer carried picture‑meanings, and the inspired writers never interpret words by their ancient pictograph origins. So when you take Bereshit and break it into pictures of a house, a head, an ox, teeth, a hand, and a cross‑mark, you’re not doing biblical exegesis — you’re reading meaning into the text that the Bible itself never assigns. The same is true with Aleph and Tav: they are letters, not symbols of God being pierced or mocked, and John didn’t “fix the Greek” to protect the Spirit from being pierced. Scripture defines meaning by words, grammar, and context, not by ancient letter‑pictures. And when you say some people are “waiting on the Messiah to come” while others are “waiting on the King’s return,” that’s not a linguistic insight — that’s just two different theological expectations. The bottom line is simple: pictographs are archaeology, not theology. The inspired meaning of Genesis 1:1 comes from the Hebrew words Moses wrote, not from the shapes those letters had centuries earlier
 
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OMC said:
I hear what you’re saying, but I need to be very clear with you: the pictograph material you’re relying on is not how Scripture defines meaning, and it’s not how the biblical authors understood their own language. Yes, the earliest Proto‑Sinaitic inscriptions used pictographic shapes, but by the time Moses wrote Genesis, Hebrew was not pictographic — it was a phonetic alphabet. The letters no longer carried picture‑meanings, and the inspired writers never interpret words by their ancient pictograph origins. So when you take Bereshit and break it into pictures of a house, a head, an ox, teeth, a hand, and a cross‑mark, you’re not doing biblical exegesis — you’re reading meaning into the text that the Bible itself never assigns. The same is true with Aleph and Tav: they are letters, not symbols of God being pierced or mocked, and John didn’t “fix the Greek” to protect the Spirit from being pierced. Scripture defines meaning by words, grammar, and context, not by ancient letter‑pictures. And when you say some people are “waiting on the Messiah to come” while others are “waiting on the King’s return,” that’s not a linguistic insight — that’s just two different theological expectations. The bottom line is simple: pictographs are archaeology, not theology. The inspired meaning of Genesis 1:1 comes from the Hebrew words Moses wrote, not from the shapes those letters had centuries earlier
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I don't feel The Lord is glorified ,in your settled heart / mind So let it go as education ver Holy Spirit in all matters not just the very beginning .
First and Last
 
Adstar said:
Ok i read the below quote.. Where does it say they are taken to Heaven??
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It tells us we shall be caught up to meet the returning LORD Jesus in the air and that from that time onwards we shall be with the LORD forever and ever.. It says nothing about being taken to heaven..



John 14:1 - John 14:3
(John 14:1-3) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Again no declaration of Jesus taking us to Heaven.. It says He does go to prepare a place for us and the Book of Revelation reveals what this place is called and goes into details about it's dimensions.. It is called the New Jerusalem.. But note what the Book of Revelation says about where the New Jerusalem will be moved from and too..

Revelation 21:1 - Revelation 21:3
(Revelation 21:1-3) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

So our etrnal Home will be the New Jerusalem and it will come down out of Heaven ( so it will not be in Heaven ) and we who are saved will live there with the LORD for ever and ever..


Yes satan is bound in chains in the bottomless pit for 1000 years but read also that at the end of the 1000 years he will be released to go out to deceive the people Gog and Magog to lead then to attack Jerusalem and the camp of the Saints..

Revelation 20:7 - Revelation 20:9
(Revelation 20:7-9) " {7} And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So the Saints will not be in Heaven they will be encamped around Jerusalem ( the Beloved City ) at the end of the 1000 years.. So satan and those deceived by Him from the nations ( Gog and Magog ) will be destroyed by fire.. Now if no one is living on earth during the 1000 years then who is satan going to deceive and lead the to attack Jerusalem??? He is not going to be deceiving the risen Saints who are ruling the world with The LORD that you can be assured of..
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The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
We see this vividly depicted in Matthew, 25 where Jesus comes and takes half the church to heaven. He does not take the church back to the brides home which would be earth.

in the last supper dialogue Jesus depicts everything in heaven, the mansions, the father, drinking the cup in heaven, and he said , that ,"where I am you may be also"( heaven)
In rev 19 the church is in heaven and is no longer the bride, but has become tge wife. Marriage supper in heaven.

In rev 14 the firstfruits Jews are in heaven, and Jesus comes MIDTRIB ,and gathers the main harvest Jews.
.....TO HEAVEN.
 
tttallison said:
Doesn't the wedding take place in Heaven? Where is the bride coming from? We see the destruction of all on earth. Are not the saints raptured up first?
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You mean "how did they get there" ?

Yes they are resurrected and in heaven in rev 19
 
tttallison said:
Is that the rapture?
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Rev 19 is a symbolic representation of Jesus' 2nd coming.
The bible does not support a pre-trib rapture.
Other scriptures will interpret the symbolic elements used in the prophecy.

Matt 24:29-31 and I Thess 4:13-18; II Thess 2:8 among others.

Only God's saved people can survive being in His presence. Isa 33:14-17
 
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Psalm1 said:
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
We see this vividly depicted in Matthew, 25 where Jesus comes and takes half the church to heaven. He does not take the church back to the brides home which would be earth.
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Again i just read Matthew 25 KJV and the portion from verse 31 to 46 dealing with His coming and i see no talk of the ""sheep"" being in heaven or going to heaven..

in the last supper dialogue Jesus depicts everything in heaven, the mansions, the father, drinking the cup in heaven, and he said , that ,"where I am you may be also"( heaven)
In rev 19 the church is in heaven and is no longer the bride, but has become tge wife. Marriage supper in heaven.
Click to expand...

Well the New Jerusalem was and still is in Heaven probably being prepared by Jesus for us.. But in the end it is coming down out of Heaven.. So our mansions where we will live with the LORD Jesus will not be in Heaven..
 
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Davidstarr said:
Rev 19 is a symbolic representation of Jesus' 2nd coming.
The bible does not support a pre-trib rapture.
Other scriptures will interpret the symbolic elements used in the prophecy.

Matt 24:29-31 and I Thess 4:13-18; II Thess 2:8 among others.

Only God's saved people can survive being in His presence. Isa 33:14-17
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What is the difference between a rapture and a resurrection?
 
tttallison said:
What is the difference between a rapture and a resurrection?
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As I understand it, the resurrection is when Jesus Christ returns and raises the bodies of His followers from their graves:

NKJV 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Rapture" is the term used by some Christians to refer to what is described in the next verse, those Christians still alive at the Second Coming being caught up:

NKJV 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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tttallison said:
What is the difference between a rapture and a resurrection?
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The word "rapture" is not in the bible. But it means "to be caught up", "gathered together and taken somewhere".
As in I Thess 4:17. To be "caught up" when Jesus comes to gather His people.

A resurrection is to be physically raised back to life from the dead. Like Lazarus in John chapter 11
The resurrection of the saints happens at Jesus' 2nd coming. I Thess 4:15-16 is but one example.
 
Davidstarr said:
Rev 19 is a symbolic representation of Jesus' 2nd coming.
The bible does not support a pre-trib rapture.
Other scriptures will interpret the symbolic elements used in the prophecy.

Matt 24:29-31 and I Thess 4:13-18; II Thess 2:8 among others.

Only God's saved people can survive being in His presence. Isa 33:14-17
Click to expand...
There is no postrib rapture.
Nowhere in the bible.
In fact the AC kills all refusing the mark.
The Bible says "power is given to the Antichrist."
The bible says "every man woman and child not written in the book receives the mark"
We see billions in heaven, in number No man can count, that are martyred during the tribulation
The bible says they overcame by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives on to death.
. in other words, they died.

the purpose of the tribulation has to be understood.
When the tribulations starts with is the end of the Gentile church times , it is the time of the Gentiles completed
And the tribulation is Jacob's trouble.
 
Adstar said:
Again i just read Matthew 25 KJV and the portion from verse 31 to 46 dealing with His coming and i see no talk of the ""sheep"" being in heaven or going to heaven..



Well the New Jerusalem was and still is in Heaven probably being prepared by Jesus for us.. But in the end it is coming down out of Heaven.. So our mansions where we will live with the LORD Jesus will not be in Heaven..
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In Matthew 25 the groom is Jesus.
The bride is gathered and the door to the marriage is shut.
The fathers house is heaven, where the groom takes the bride.
The mansions are in heaven now.
It all fits perfectly.
 
DavidLamb said:
As I understand it, the resurrection is when Jesus Christ returns and raises the bodies of His followers from their graves:

NKJV 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Rapture" is the term used by some Christians to refer to what is described in the next verse, those Christians still alive at the Second Coming being caught up:

NKJV 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Click to expand...
The dead in christ also rise.
Both groups are caught up.
 
Psalm1 said:
There is no postrib rapture.
Nowhere in the bible.
In fact the AC kills all refusing the mark.
The Bible says "power is given to the Antichrist."
The bible says "every man woman and child not written in the book receives the mark"
We see billions in heaven, in number No man can count, that are martyred during the tribulation
The bible says they overcame by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives on to death.
. in other words, they died.

the purpose of the tribulation has to be understood.
When the tribulations starts with is the end of the Gentile church times , it is the time of the Gentiles completed
And the tribulation is Jacob's trouble.
Click to expand...
But Jesus Himself says He comes to take His people AFTER the tribulation (Matt 24:29-31)
 
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