Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

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OMC said:
the resurrection is post‑trib; Matthew 24 places the gathering after the tribulation (v. 29–31), and Paul says the resurrection happens at His coming (1 Cor 15:23), not before it
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Take a look at who does the gathering and where the gathering is.
Also, take a look at when the rapture is. It is before the flood. It is before Sodom burned.
Then take a look at when the dead in Christ are risen.

it is alongside the rapture. So none of what you're saying lines up at all
 
Psalm1 said:
Take a look at who does the gathering and where the gathering is.
Also, take a look at when the rapture is. It is before the flood. It is before Sodom burned.
Then take a look at when the dead in Christ are risen.

it is alongside the rapture. So none of what you're saying lines up at all
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at His coming (1 Cor 15:23), not before it
 
OMC said:
the resurrection is post‑trib; Matthew 24 places the gathering after the tribulation (v. 29–31), and Paul says the resurrection happens at His coming (1 Cor 15:23), not before it
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Can't you see all the problems this creates. Are you saying 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the rapture?
 
tttallison said:
Can't you see all the problems this creates. Are you saying 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the rapture?
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Of course 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the rapture — but Paul says the rapture happens after the resurrection, and the resurrection happens at His coming, not before it.
 
OMC said:
Of course 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the rapture — but Paul says the rapture happens after the resurrection, and the resurrection happens at His coming, not before it.
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You have the resurrection of the dead, and then the rapture. Who is the dead that is resurrected before the rapture? Are not the first century Christians included in the dead, and if not, why not?
 
tttallison said:
You have the resurrection of the dead, and then the rapture. Who is the dead that is resurrected before the rapture? Are not the first century Christians included in the dead, and if not, why not?
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Brother, the dead who rise before the rapture in 1 Thess 4:16 are all the dead in Christ across the entire Church age, which obviously includes the first‑century believers — Peter, Paul, James, every martyr, every saint.
Paul’s order is airtight:
(1) Christ appears,
(2) the dead in Christ rise first,
(3) then the living in Christ are caught up together with them.
There is no category of “dead believers who don’t rise” and no gap where first‑century saints are excluded;
Paul explicitly says “the dead in Christ”, not “some of the dead,” and 1 Cor 15:23 confirms that all who belong to Christ are raised at His coming.
So yes — the resurrection includes the first‑century Christians, and that is precisely why the rapture cannot be pre‑trib: the resurrection happens at His appearing, and the rapture follows immediately.
 
OMC said:
Brother, the dead who rise before the rapture in 1 Thess 4:16 are all the dead in Christ across the entire Church age, which obviously includes the first‑century believers — Peter, Paul, James, every martyr, every saint.
Paul’s order is airtight:
(1) Christ appears,
(2) the dead in Christ rise first,
(3) then the living in Christ are caught up together with them.
There is no category of “dead believers who don’t rise” and no gap where first‑century saints are excluded;
Paul explicitly says “the dead in Christ”, not “some of the dead,” and 1 Cor 15:23 confirms that all who belong to Christ are raised at His coming.
So yes — the resurrection includes the first‑century Christians, and that is precisely why the rapture cannot be pre‑trib: the resurrection happens at His appearing, and the rapture follows immediately.
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What am I missing? Is the Resurrection as described in Matthew 24 pre-trib. or post trib?
 
tttallison said:
What am I missing? Is the Resurrection as described in Matthew 24 pre-trib. or post trib?
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Matthew 24’s resurrection/gathering is explicitly after the tribulation, and nothing in the text allows a pre‑trib resurrection to be inserted before it.
 
OMC said:
Matthew 24’s resurrection/gathering is explicitly after the tribulation, and nothing in the text allows a pre‑trib resurrection to be inserted before it.
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This doesn't make any sense to me. If the resurrection in Matthew 24 takes place after the tribulation, but takes place before the rapture. How can the rapture take place after the resurrection? 1 Thessalonians says the dead shall rise first, and then those that are alive are raptured up. Who are the dead who are resurrected here? They have to be after Christ because it says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Doesn't this include the first Century dead in Christ?

Can you explain this to me? I cannot see how that works.
 
tttallison said:
This doesn't make any sense to me. If the resurrection in Matthew 24 takes place after the tribulation, but takes place before the rapture. How can the rapture take place after the resurrection? 1 Thessalonians says the dead shall rise first, and then those that are alive are raptured up. Who are the dead who are resurrected here? They have to be after Christ because it says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Doesn't this include the first Century dead in Christ?

Can you explain this to me? I cannot see how that works.
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The resurrection and the rapture are one event, not two different events separated by tribulation phases, and Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15 all describe the same moment from different angles.
Matthew gives the timing (“after the tribulation”),
Paul gives the order (Christ appears → the dead in Christ rise → the living are transformed → all are caught up), and neither writer ever inserts a pre‑trib resurrection or a pre‑trib rapture.
So when you ask, “Who are the dead who rise first?” — it’s exactly who Paul says: all the dead in Christ across the entire Church age, including the first‑century believers; they rise at Christ’s appearing, which Matthew places after the tribulation.
That means the rapture cannot be pre‑trib because the rapture happens after the resurrection, and the resurrection happens at His coming, and His coming in Matthew is after the tribulation.
There is no contradiction — the resurrection in Matthew 24 is the same resurrection Paul describes, and the rapture follows immediately, exactly in the order Paul gives.
 
OMC said:
The resurrection and the rapture are one event, not two different events separated by tribulation phases, and Matthew 24, 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15 all describe the same moment from different angles.
Matthew gives the timing (“after the tribulation”),
Paul gives the order (Christ appears → the dead in Christ rise → the living are transformed → all are caught up), and neither writer ever inserts a pre‑trib resurrection or a pre‑trib rapture.
So when you ask, “Who are the dead who rise first?” — it’s exactly who Paul says: all the dead in Christ across the entire Church age, including the first‑century believers; they rise at Christ’s appearing, which Matthew places after the tribulation.
That means the rapture cannot be pre‑trib because the rapture happens after the resurrection, and the resurrection happens at His coming, and His coming in Matthew is after the tribulation.
There is no contradiction — the resurrection in Matthew 24 is the same resurrection Paul describes, and the rapture follows immediately, exactly in the order Paul gives.
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You just said the rapture is not prior to the tribulation. That means the tribulation comes first. So you stand with the post tribulation rapture group. Is that correct?
 
tttallison said:
You just said the rapture is not prior to the tribulation. That means the tribulation comes first. So you stand with the post tribulation rapture group. Is that correct?
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I stand with the scripture, and it says the rapture is at Christs arrival.
 
tttallison said:
Does that mean we have to go through 7 years of tribulation before Christ comes?
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according to scripture we are already in and have been in tribulation. No where in scripture does it say just 7 years of tribulation. That comes from a system not based in scripture. The 3.5 years and the other half start when the antichrist makes a covenant. That's in the last 7 years of the tribulation that's been building in intensity since the crucifixion.
 
Psalm1 said:
Amen
Paul referred to the bride also.
We are the bride.

The bible ends with the bride and the Spirit calling out to the groom.

The parting words of heaven is of the bride and groom.
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“And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
tttallison said:
Isn't the bible telling us in Revelation 19 that we have the wedding and then the judgement?

It is understandable that people would question where the people would come from after the 1,000 years. Isaiah made this statement.

Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?

I believe I know where the children are coming from. This is just my opinion. We are told of a second resurrection in Revelation 20, just after the 1,000 years. I believe this resurrection is the one presented to Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 37. Notice that in Ezekiel chapter 38 is the first time God and Magog are mentioned in the Bible. The same Gog and Magog that are mentioned in Revelation 20, which is after the 1,000 years and after the second resurrection. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (The first resurrection is referring to those that reign with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead is the second resurrection.)

Observe also that in Ezekiel 37, after the resurrection, the two kingdoms, the northern and southern kingdom, will again become one. The only place the people from those two kingdoms exist today is in the ground.
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“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


notice there’s life from the dead when Jesus comes ? He’s come once already and raised many saints as he told them in the ot before he came and will return again as he’s told us before he comes back

at the end of each covenant the Christs is to come and and each covenant had a promised resurrection
 
Pilgrimshope said:
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


notice there’s life from the dead when Jesus comes ? He’s come once already and raised many saints as he told them in the ot before he came and will return again as he’s told us before he comes back

at the end of each covenant the Christs is to come and and each covenant had a promised resurrection
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Ezekiel 37 is not a literal resurrection prophecy — it is a national restoration metaphor, explicitly interpreted by God in the chapter itself (“these bones are the whole house of Israel”), meaning the “graves” are exile, not physical tombs; Matthew 27:52–53 is a unique, unrepeatable sign at Christ’s crucifixion, not the inauguration of a covenant‑ending resurrection cycle; and 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the final resurrection at Christ’s second coming, not a recurring resurrection at the end of every covenant.
You’re trying to build a pattern — “Christ comes at the end of each covenant and raises the dead” — but Scripture never teaches multiple comings of Christ or multiple covenant‑ending resurrections; it teaches one incarnation, one resurrection of Christ, and one future resurrection of the saints at His return. Ezekiel’s metaphorical resurrection, Matthew’s historical sign, and Paul’s eschatological resurrection are not parallel events — they serve different purposes in different genres.
 
OMC said:
according to scripture we are already in and have been in tribulation. No where in scripture does it say just 7 years of tribulation. That comes from a system not based in scripture. The 3.5 years and the other half start when the antichrist makes a covenant. That's in the last 7 years of the tribulation that's been building in intensity since the crucifixion.
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Ok, so the rapture takes place and then what happens?
 
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