The chosen ones.

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Revelation1v8 said:
So, it must be a structure that is built on earth before the return of Jesus and sometime around the Tribulation period because Revelation 11:1-2 mentions it again and then goes on to talk about events that will happen during the Great Tribulation and shows the return of Christ (Revelation 11:15).
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Brother, Revelation 11 does not prove Ezekiel’s temple must be built before Christ returns, because the “temple” John measures in Revelation 11:1–2 is not Ezekiel’s structure, does not match Ezekiel’s dimensions, does not include Ezekiel’s priesthood or sacrifices, and does not function like Ezekiel’s temple at all; instead, it is a symbolic, prophetic measuring of the worshiping community, just like Ezekiel 40–48 itself uses measurement as a prophetic act rather than a construction blueprint.
The logic that “Revelation 11 mentions a temple, therefore Ezekiel’s temple must be built before the Second Coming” collapses once you compare the texts directly:
Ezekiel’s temple is massive, symmetrical, Levitical, sacrificial, and tied to land allotments;
Revelation’s “temple” is tiny, undefined, contains worshipers rather than priests, has no sacrifices, and is immediately contrasted with the outer court given to the nations.
John is not describing a physical building; he is reenacting the prophetic symbolism of measuring God’s people (cf. Zech 2:1–5), marking them off for protection during the Tribulation.
Revelation 11:15 then jumps to the seventh trumpet and the return of Christ without ever mentioning construction, priests, sacrifices, or Ezekiel’s system.
So your conclusion doesn’t follow: Revelation 11 does not resurrect Ezekiel’s conditional temple; it uses temple imagery to depict God’s preservation of His worshipers during judgment.
Ezekiel’s temple remains what the text itself says it is—a conditional restoration model Israel never met—and Revelation’s temple imagery remains what John uses it for: a symbolic act of measuring the faithful, not a prediction of a rebuilt Levitical sanctuary.
 
OMC said:
Brother, Revelation 11 does not prove Ezekiel’s temple must be built before Christ returns, because the “temple” John measures in Revelation 11:1–2 is not Ezekiel’s structure, does not match Ezekiel’s dimensions, does not include Ezekiel’s priesthood or sacrifices, and does not function like Ezekiel’s temple at all; instead, it is a symbolic, prophetic measuring of the worshiping community, just like Ezekiel 40–48 itself uses measurement as a prophetic act rather than a construction blueprint.
The logic that “Revelation 11 mentions a temple, therefore Ezekiel’s temple must be built before the Second Coming” collapses once you compare the texts directly:
Ezekiel’s temple is massive, symmetrical, Levitical, sacrificial, and tied to land allotments;
Revelation’s “temple” is tiny, undefined, contains worshipers rather than priests, has no sacrifices, and is immediately contrasted with the outer court given to the nations.
John is not describing a physical building; he is reenacting the prophetic symbolism of measuring God’s people (cf. Zech 2:1–5), marking them off for protection during the Tribulation.
Revelation 11:15 then jumps to the seventh trumpet and the return of Christ without ever mentioning construction, priests, sacrifices, or Ezekiel’s system.
So your conclusion doesn’t follow: Revelation 11 does not resurrect Ezekiel’s conditional temple; it uses temple imagery to depict God’s preservation of His worshipers during judgment.
Ezekiel’s temple remains what the text itself says it is—a conditional restoration model Israel never met—and Revelation’s temple imagery remains what John uses it for: a symbolic act of measuring the faithful, not a prediction of a rebuilt Levitical sanctuary.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The wording is too precise to suggest just a "measuring of God's people" because it measures the "altar" and says they "worship therein". The court of Gentiles isn't even measured even though we know that Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation.

Revelation 11:1-2

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The wording is too precise to suggest just a "measuring of God's people" because it measures the "altar" and says they "worship therein". The court of Gentiles isn't even measured even though we know that Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation.
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Brother, the wording in Revelation 11 is precise.
But its precision points to prophetic symbolism, not to Ezekiel’s physical temple.

The key is this:
Revelation 11 uses temple language the same way Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Amos do, as a prophetic act of marking off the faithful, and the details you’re pointing to actually reinforce that interpretation rather than overturn it.
Here, look,
The fact that John measures the “temple,” “altar,” and “worshipers” does not make the structure Ezekiel’s temple.
Because Ezekiel’s temple requires Levitical priests,
sacrificial blood,
land allotments, and
architectural dimensions that Revelation never mentions. instead,
Revelation 11 follows the prophetic pattern of Zechariah 2,
Where the prophet measures Jerusalem not to describe a building but to mark off God’s protected people, and the exclusion of the outer court mirrors Jesus’ own language about the Gentiles “trampling” Jerusalem (Luke 21:24), not about excluding Gentile believers from salvation.

The “altar” in Revelation is the same symbolic altar seen throughout the book,
the place where the prayers of the saints ascend (Rev 6:9; 8:3),
not a Levitical altar for blood sacrifices—and the “worshipers” are the faithful remnant preserved during judgment,
not priests performing Ezekiel’s rituals.

The outer court is not unmeasured because Gentiles are excluded from salvation;
it is unmeasured because it represents the sphere given over to the nations during the Tribulation.

So the precision of Revelation 11 supports symbolic measurement,
not a rebuilt Ezekiel temple, and nothing in the text requires a physical Levitical sanctuary before Christ returns.
 
OMC said:
Brother, the wording in Revelation 11 is precise.
But its precision points to prophetic symbolism, not to Ezekiel’s physical temple.

The key is this:
Revelation 11 uses temple language the same way Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Amos do, as a prophetic act of marking off the faithful, and the details you’re pointing to actually reinforce that interpretation rather than overturn it.
Here, look,
The fact that John measures the “temple,” “altar,” and “worshipers” does not make the structure Ezekiel’s temple.
Because Ezekiel’s temple requires Levitical priests,
sacrificial blood,
land allotments, and
architectural dimensions that Revelation never mentions. instead,
Revelation 11 follows the prophetic pattern of Zechariah 2,
Where the prophet measures Jerusalem not to describe a building but to mark off God’s protected people, and the exclusion of the outer court mirrors Jesus’ own language about the Gentiles “trampling” Jerusalem (Luke 21:24), not about excluding Gentile believers from salvation.

The “altar” in Revelation is the same symbolic altar seen throughout the book,
the place where the prayers of the saints ascend (Rev 6:9; 8:3),
not a Levitical altar for blood sacrifices—and the “worshipers” are the faithful remnant preserved during judgment,
not priests performing Ezekiel’s rituals.

The outer court is not unmeasured because Gentiles are excluded from salvation;
it is unmeasured because it represents the sphere given over to the nations during the Tribulation.

So the precision of Revelation 11 supports symbolic measurement,
not a rebuilt Ezekiel temple, and nothing in the text requires a physical Levitical sanctuary before Christ returns.
Click to expand...

Zechariah 2 doesn't measure a temple because it says it's measuring the City of Jerusalem as a whole. And it's measured because Jesus puts a wall of fire around it, and the Bible explicitly states that.

Zechariah 2:4-5

4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

5 For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

Revelation 11:1-2 doesn't say that it's just measuring the temple of God, measuring the altar, and measuring the people who "worship therein" separately for the purpose of protection of just the people. In fact, we know that the 2 Olive Tree and Candlestick witnesses are killed and brought back to life.

Your statements that Revelation doesn't mention a temple anywhere else means nothing. The Millennial Kingdom as 1,000 year period reign of Jesus on earth is only found in Revelation 20. You have to refer to the Old Testament for the details. The mention of the temple shouldn't be considered any different.
 
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Revelation 11 uses temple language the same way Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Amos do, as a prophetic act of marking off the faithful,
Click to expand...

As for your mention of the "temple language" in the book of Amos being symbolic to mark off the faithful people, there was a literal temple there. It wasn't being used as purely a metaphor.

The "temple" in Amos 9:1 is a real, physical building — the royal sanctuary Jeroboam constructed at Bethel. The text describes its destruction in architectural terms (horns, capitals, pillars, thresholds), connects it to a real earthquake, and its historical fulfillment is the Assyrian conquest. The symbolic meaning (the nation's religious order collapsing) is layered on top of the literal event, not instead of it.
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
Zechariah 2 doesn't measure a temple because it says it's measuring the City of Jerusalem as a whole. And it's measured because Jesus puts a wall of fire around it, and the Bible explicitly states that.

Zechariah 2:4-5

4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

5 For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

Revelation 11:1-2 doesn't say that it's just measuring the temple of God, measuring the altar, and measuring the people who "worship therein" separately for the purpose of protection of just the people. In fact, we know that the 2 Olive Tree and Candlestick witnesses are killed and brought back to life.

Your statements that Revelation doesn't mention a temple anywhere else means nothing. The Millennial Kingdom as 1,000 year period reign of Jesus on earth is only found in Revelation 20. You have to refer to the Old Testament for the details. The mention of the temple shouldn't be considered any different.
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You’re right that Zechariah 2 is measuring the city and explicitly ties that measurement to God’s protective presence—but that’s exactly the point: in prophetic literature, measuring is a symbolic act of marking off what belongs to God, not a construction permit, and Revelation 11 follows that same pattern with temple language. John is told to measure “the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein,” but then immediately told to leave out the outer court because it is “given unto the Gentiles”—that is, to the nations who will trample the holy city. The text itself separates what is measured (the worshiping community) from what is not (the sphere of Gentile trampling), which is precisely how symbolic marking works: it distinguishes those who belong to God from the realm given over to judgment The fact that the two witnesses are killed does not contradict that; Revelation consistently shows protected status and martyrdom coexisting (cf. Rev 7 and 13). On the millennial point: yes, the explicit “thousand years” is only in Revelation 20, and we look to the Old Testament for kingdom imagery—but that does not mean every OT temple vision must be imported into the Millennium, especially when Ezekiel’s temple demands Levitical atonement sacrifices and priestly mediation that Hebrews says are abolished. The mere mention of a “temple” in Revelation 11 does not identify it as Ezekiel’s structure, does not supply Levitical details, and does not override the New Covenant’s termination of the sacrificial system. So the burden of proof is not “OT has temple, therefore Rev 11 is Ezekiel’s temple”; the burden is to show that Revelation 11’s brief, symbolic measurement text actually matches Ezekiel’s detailed, conditional, Levitical blueprint—and it doesn’t.
Revelation1v8 said:
As for your mention of the "temple language" in the book of Amos being symbolic to mark off the faithful people, there was a literal temple there. It wasn't being used as purely a metaphor.

The "temple" in Amos 9:1 is a real, physical building — the royal sanctuary Jeroboam constructed at Bethel. The text describes its destruction in architectural terms (horns, capitals, pillars, thresholds), connects it to a real earthquake, and its historical fulfillment is the Assyrian conquest. The symbolic meaning (the nation's religious order collapsing) is layered on top of the literal event, not instead of it.
Click to expand...
yes, Amos 9:1 refers to a literal sanctuary at Bethel, but its literalness does not overturn the point—because in prophetic literature, literal structures are routinely used as symbolic referents, and Revelation 11 follows that same pattern.
 
OMC said:
You’re right that Zechariah 2 is measuring the city and explicitly ties that measurement to God’s protective presence—but that’s exactly the point: in prophetic literature, measuring is a symbolic act of marking off what belongs to God, not a construction permit, and Revelation 11 follows that same pattern with temple language. John is told to measure “the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein,” but then immediately told to leave out the outer court because it is “given unto the Gentiles”—that is, to the nations who will trample the holy city. The text itself separates what is measured (the worshiping community) from what is not (the sphere of Gentile trampling), which is precisely how symbolic marking works: it distinguishes those who belong to God from the realm given over to judgment The fact that the two witnesses are killed does not contradict that; Revelation consistently shows protected status and martyrdom coexisting (cf. Rev 7 and 13). On the millennial point: yes, the explicit “thousand years” is only in Revelation 20, and we look to the Old Testament for kingdom imagery—but that does not mean every OT temple vision must be imported into the Millennium, especially when Ezekiel’s temple demands Levitical atonement sacrifices and priestly mediation that Hebrews says are abolished. The mere mention of a “temple” in Revelation 11 does not identify it as Ezekiel’s structure, does not supply Levitical details, and does not override the New Covenant’s termination of the sacrificial system. So the burden of proof is not “OT has temple, therefore Rev 11 is Ezekiel’s temple”; the burden is to show that Revelation 11’s brief, symbolic measurement text actually matches Ezekiel’s detailed, conditional, Levitical blueprint—and it doesn’t.

yes, Amos 9:1 refers to a literal sanctuary at Bethel, but its literalness does not overturn the point—because in prophetic literature, literal structures are routinely used as symbolic referents, and Revelation 11 follows that same pattern.
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LOL! You forget that the Jews haven't entered into the New Covenant yet. They don't consider anything "abolished" at this current time. Jesus said that while He fulfilled the law, that He didn't come to destroy it and that it wouldn't pass away until heaven and earth passed away. Israel already has blueprints ready to build a new temple. I have already agreed with you that the temple in Ezekiel 40 through 48 and Revelation 11:1-2 is not a Millennial Kingdom temple built after Jesus' return, but I still hold that it is a temple that will exist before Jesus returns, as Revelation 11:1-2 make it sound like it will be on earth during the time of the Great Tribulation period.
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
LOL! You forget that the Jews haven't entered into the New Covenant yet. They don't consider anything "abolished" at this current time. Jesus said that while He fulfilled the law, that He didn't come to destroy it and that it wouldn't pass away until heaven and earth passed away. Israel already has blueprints ready to build a new temple. I have already agreed with you that the temple in Ezekiel 40 through 48 and Revelation 11:1-2 is not a Millennial Kingdom temple built after Jesus' return, but I still hold that it is a temple that will exist before Jesus returns, as Revelation 11:1-2 make it sound like it will be on earth during the time of the Great Tribulation period.
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Revelation 11 can point to a literal, pre‑return temple because, as you pointed out, the text describes measurable physical space (“temple,” “altar,” “outer court”) and time‑bound events (“42 months,” “1,260 days”) that fit the Tribulation framework Jesus and Daniel describe; nothing in the passage forces the temple to be symbolic only, even though the act of measuring carries symbolic meaning. John is told to measure a sanctuary, not “the church,” and Jesus’ own words about a future desecration in “the holy place” (Matt 24:15) assume a physical site. So the text leaves room for a literal building unbelieving Israel constructs before Christ returns yes I agree. That said , do you see why folks argue this point? One stands on one point and the other stands on the op, yet they are both right.
 
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OMC said:
Revelation 11 can point to a literal, pre‑return temple because, as you pointed out, the text describes measurable physical space (“temple,” “altar,” “outer court”) and time‑bound events (“42 months,” “1,260 days”) that fit the Tribulation framework Jesus and Daniel describe; nothing in the passage forces the temple to be symbolic only, even though the act of measuring carries symbolic meaning. John is told to measure a sanctuary, not “the church,” and Jesus’ own words about a future desecration in “the holy place” (Matt 24:15) assume a physical site. So the text leaves room for a literal building unbelieving Israel constructs before Christ returns yes I agree. That said , do you see why folks argue this point? One stands on one point and the other stands on the op, yet they are both right.
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I can see why people argue all kinds of points, since in my opinion, the Bible is one big puzzle that you have to piece together to bring the whole thing into context because none of it is obvious, and at times it sound contradictory. I'm convinced God/Jesus allowed it to be this way for two main purposes. 1) To keep certain things hidden from us until the time is right. 2) To keep us in scripture all day long because as long as we're discussing or debating it, we're still in His word CONSTANTLY looking for answers!! ;)
 
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Synonyms for “chosen” include: elect (Matt. 24:22,24&31) = disciples (Matt. 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (John 3:3&7) = believers (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (Acts 9:32, Rom. 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (Acts 11:26, 26:28) = saved (Acts 16:30-31) = those in Christ (Rom. 8:1, Eph. 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (Rom. 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (Rom. 8:14-21) = the grafted in (Rom. 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1Cor. 1:2) = God’s people (1Cor. 16:1) = church/saints (2Cor. 1:1 = the faithful/holy (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:2) = chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (Eph. 2:19) = soldier/worker (Phm. v.2&24)
 
Watchman22 said:
Ephesians. 1: 3-6 is a spoken separation of one called out from among those who are not called.
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The devil will never take us out of Gods hands, if we follow Him closely.

How do we follow Him closely?
By a continually surrendered life.
 
Watchman22 said:
The devil will never take us out of Gods hands, if we follow Him closely.

How do we follow Him closely?
By a continually surrendered life.
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We are on trial by God.

God is working on us to humble us.

Supernatural means, more natural
 
Revelation1v8 said:
I can see why people argue all kinds of points, since in my opinion, the Bible is one big puzzle that you have to piece together to bring the whole thing into context because none of it is obvious, and at times it sound contradictory. I'm convinced God/Jesus allowed it to be this way for two main purposes. 1) To keep certain things hidden from us until the time is right. 2) To keep us in scripture all day long because as long as we're discussing or debating it, we're still in His word CONSTANTLY looking for answers!! ;)
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"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter."
 
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Watchman22 said:
Ephesians. 1: 3-6 is a spoken separation of one called out from among those who are not called.
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No, it is not.

Here's the text:

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

There is nothing there about "separation" nor about "called" or "not called". While Paul is identified as an apostle by Christ's will, that does not extend to the Ephesian Christians.

You really should stop claiming that Scripture says what it does not say.
 
Dino246 said:
You really should stop claiming that Scripture says what it does not say.
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All the big time preachers and churches have to put their own spin on it so they can collect bigger offers and sell more merch so they can build bigger barns
 
ScooterJackson said:
All the big time preachers and churches have to put their own spin on it so they can collect bigger offers and sell more merch so they can build bigger barns
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I'm not sure that is Watchman22's motivation, but he does seem to have an agenda that doesn't align with Scripture. Or perhaps he has not learned how to handle Scripture.
 
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