The rapture removes the church, the Day of the Lord judgments fall, Christ returns, the kingdom is established, and the final judgment closes history.
Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations
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“Ezekiel 37 is not a literal resurrection prophecy”
again based upon what ?
at his is what god told the prophet to say to israel
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
Ezekiel 37:12-13 KJV
When he came forth as promised
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
What’s your logic that the prophecy wasn’t literal and the saints didn’t come out of thier graves as promised when Jesus rose ?
“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
Isaiah 42:9 KJV
“You’re trying to build a pattern — “Christ comes at the end of each covenant and raises the dead”
no I’ve shown that there was a mass resurrection of Israel’s saints when Jesus came the first time and then I showed the promise for another when he returns without haveing to add or explain why anything doesn’t mean what it says
“but Scripture never teaches multiple comings of Christ or multiple covenant‑ending resurrections”
…… right right …..scriptire never says Jesus would come twice …..or that there are 2 resurrections …… it’s hard to discuss scripture with you brother
Why did this happen ?
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
The same reason the whole New Testament happened because god said it would beforehand Like this
prophecy
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Isaiah 7:14
fulfilment in the nt
“And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.”
Luke 2:7 KJV
you don’t have to explain things to anyone brother or teach anyone how to understand scripture . You should do a study about prophecy and fulfilment and see how many coincidences occur as you explain it’s not really the fulfilment
Ezekiel 37 is not a literal resurrection because God Himself interprets the vision inside the chapter: “these bones are the whole house of Israel” — meaning the graves are exile, not tombs, and the “bringing up” is return to the land, not physical resurrection; Matthew 27:52–53 is a historical sign at Christ’s crucifixion, not the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s metaphor, and the NT never treats it as a covenant‑ending resurrection — it’s a witness to Christ’s victory, not a mass resurrection of Israel’s saints; and 1 Thess 4 is the final resurrection, not a second cycle of Ezekiel’s metaphor or Matthew’s sign.
You keep saying “based on what?” but the answer is simple: based on what the text itself says — Ezekiel interprets his own vision, Matthew reports a unique event, and Paul describes the eschatological resurrection.
Your claim that Scripture teaches “multiple comings of Christ” or “multiple covenant‑ending resurrections” collapses because the NT explicitly teaches one incarnation, one resurrection of Christ, and one future resurrection of the saints; Matthew’s sign is not Ezekiel’s metaphor, and neither is Paul’s eschatology.
Do you believe this happened ?
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
tell me why things like that can happen who’s behind things like that ? Dead being raised up out of thier graves ?
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
Ezekiel 37:12
trynot i terpreting everything with your rules and see if it makes sense given the order of prophecy and fulfilment
Not only that but the martyrs in heaven, are confined to under the altar, until their numbers are completed.
( note that the innumerable number are IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB, and are IN THE GENERAL POPULATION, Indicating the martyrs are in heaven before the end of the trib.) ( no longer confined under the altar)
IOW, the cut off point has been realized DURING the trib.
The postrib rapture does not in any way fit.
Nor is there ANY RESURRECTION postrib.
None.
No verses at all point to it.
Think about it.
If the rapture is during normal everyday life, how can the resurrection follow it, at the wrong timing?
THAT is why they can not honestly accept mat 24 39-41.
They can not do it..
Nor can they honestly accept Rev 14:14.
There is no resurrection before the mil and after the 7 yr trib.
Rev 20 is referring to an earlier resurrection.
Years earlier.
Now I see why you are pointing to the bride being a building.
Revelation is an apocalypse . Does this mean anything to you guys regarding a literal earthly thousand years in gods plan ?
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8, KJV
Consider chapter 5 . From the throne the angel looks at men and finds no one worthy to open a sealed book suddenly “ the lion of Judah the root of David “ appears in the throne We see a lamb in heaven at gods throne who’s been slain but lives and he’s receiving glory and a kingdom over all things . He’s purchased men with his blood for god
when I said revelation is an apacolypse look at chapter 5 all of that information is explained and identifies in the Bible prior to revelation we wouldn’t know who the lamb of God is without the prior information when we see a lamb having been slain and yet lives in heaven at the throne we know it’s Jesus
Because the Bible tells us “ Jesus is the lamb of God “ he died and rose up and ascended into heaven where he would be glorified and receive his kingdom and power and rule . God looking at men seeing if any are worthy is in scripture . The lion of Judah and root of David is in scripture about Jesus , by the time we read revelation 5 we’re meant to know the prior information on scriptire so when we see the imagery it makes sense
The whole book is like chapter 5 it’s a revelation of the prior information not a timeline or linear story but an apacolypse
Ahhh, this discussion is getting good! I love it!
I know you don't believe in an earthly Millennial Kingdom period, but what if the saints who were brought out of their graves and their "bodies" walked through Jerusalem in Matthew 27 were they're actual physical bodies and not their resurrected bodies? We know that Jesus brought Lazarus' physical body back to life after being in the grave for 4 days. It wasn't Lazarus' incorruptible resurrection body.
Isn't it possible that Ezekiel 37 is all about God bringing back the physical bodies of the House of Israel to live in an EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom period before they experience yet another physical death before all are judged in Revelation 20 at the Great White Throne Judgement?
I think your comments comparing Matthew 27 to Ezekiel 37 actually support an earthly Millennial Kingdom reign better than a heavenly one.
yes, Matthew 27:52–53 happened — the text says it, I affirm it, and the reason events like that occur is simple: God Himself is the one who raises the dead, and He did it there as a sign of Christ’s victory, not as the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s metaphor or as the inauguration of a covenant‑ending resurrection cycle; the mistake you’re making is treating Matthew_27, Ezekiel_37, and 1_Thess_4 as parallel events when Scripture itself separates them by genre, purpose, and interpretation.
Ezekiel explicitly says the bones represent the whole house of Israel in exile, not literal corpses; Matthew reports a historical sign tied to Christ’s resurrection, not a mass resurrection fulfilling Ezekiel; and Paul describes the final resurrection at Christ’s return, not a recurring resurrection at the end of each covenant.
You’re trying to read prophecy → fulfillment in a straight line, but the prophets themselves often use symbolic visions (like Ezekiel’s bones) to describe national restoration, while the Gospels record historical signs, and Paul gives eschatological doctrine; when you stop flattening those categories, the order makes perfect sense: Ezekiel = metaphor of national restoration, Matthew = sign of Christ’s victory, Paul = final resurrection
I know you don't believe in an earthly Millennial Kingdom period, but what if the saints who were brought out of their graves and their "bodies" walked through Jerusalem in Matthew were they're actual physical bodies and not their resurrected bodies?
I’d say that’s at least a sensible opinion and theory. But I would respectfully disagree for several reasons which I won’t go into at the moment .
My position is sort of based on this type of thing which doesn’t stand alone but appears in several other places and ways
Speaking of the faithful saints of the ot he’s been giving examples like Abraham Enoch abel and others of course but he says this of them
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Hebrews 11:13-14, 16 KJV
If they understood they were only strangers and pilgrims on earth , and thier country was heavenly and what god had prepared for them . why couldn’t he be talking about placing them in thier own land referring to what they all believed when they died ? That thier home was in heaven ?
Why do we always want to put them back on earth ?
let me throw one at you so you can knock it our of the park
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”
1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV
notice it’s not “those who still sleep “ but rather slept ? Past tense
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
Why couldn’t they , after appearing in Jerusalem be taken to thier coty prepqred by God in heaven that the faithful believed was thoer promised land ?
One more to chew on see this Part ?
“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. …..These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 14:1-4 KJV
They’ve already been redeemed from the earth are definately saints and appear in sion with the lamb before gods throne
heres on of those several references again regarding the city of God Mount sion
“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
why couldn’t that all just mean what it says ? And why couldn’t the saints who rose be in heaven with Jesus already redeemed while the rest unfolds ?
i think the earthly millenial riegn is plausible if we stopped at maybe the book of zechariah then we’d be left to believe isrwel would be restored in earth but if we also read the gospel and epistles I don’t think it’s plausible at all but it’s just my opinion everyone has thiers too
I mean nothing by it either as i have tried many times to explain to others. Thank you for the conversation.
Good answer! Lots of food for thought!
When you mention the 144,000 that have been redeemed from the earth, doesn't the Bible show them back on the earth?
- Revelation 7:3: States the seal is placed on them "on the earth" to protect them from the coming judgments.
- Revelation 14:1: Places them "on Mount Zion" with the Lamb, which is interpreted by many as the earthly Mount of Olives or Zion, distinct from the heavenly throne room described in Revelation 4–5.
- Revelation 14:3: Describes them as being "redeemed from the earth," implying their physical presence and origin on earth rather than a purely heavenly spiritual state.
Shared imagery:
- Four winds – In Ezekiel 37:9, breath comes "from the four winds" to enliven the bones. In Revelation 7:1–2, four angels hold back the four winds of the earth before the 144,000 are sealed. The sequence (winds held → sealing → life) mirrors the Ezekiel vision (winds → breath → life).
- A great army – Ezekiel 37:10 says the revived bones "stood up upon their feet, an exceedingly great army." The 144,000 in Revelation form a comparable vast, organized host.
- Tribal Israel – Both passages center on the house of Israel. Ezekiel 37:11 identifies the bones as "the whole house of Israel," and the 144,000 are drawn specifically from the twelve tribes (Rev 7:4–8).
- Spirit/breath as life-giving – In Ezekiel, ruach (breath/spirit) is what animates the bones. In Revelation, the sealed ones are marked by God's Spirit, and the Lamb's song is something "no one could learn except" the 144,000 (Rev 14:3), implying a unique indwelling.
evelation 14:3: Describes them as being "redeemed from the earth," implying their physical presence and origin on earth rather than a purely heavenly spiritual state“Good answer! Lots of food for thought!
When you mention the 144,000 that have been redeemed from the earth, doesn't the Bible show them back on the earth?
When I asked my Brave Search Assistant to do a comparison of the 144,000 and the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37, here's what it tells me:
- Revelation 7:3: States the seal is placed on them "on the earth" to protect them from the coming judgments.
- Revelation 14:1: Places them "on Mount Zion" with the Lamb, which is interpreted by many as the earthly Mount of Olives or Zion, distinct from the heavenly throne room described in Revelation 4–5.
- Revelation 14:3: Describes them as being "redeemed from the earth," implying their physical presence and origin on earth rather than a purely heavenly spiritual state.
Shared imagery:
So, the 144,000 are the firstfruits returning to earth during the Great Tribulation period to serve another purpose for those who remain on the earth? That's very plausible. Every time I think a question is answered, it just raises more questions!!
- Four winds – In Ezekiel 37:9, breath comes "from the four winds" to enliven the bones. In Revelation 7:1–2, four angels hold back the four winds of the earth before the 144,000 are sealed. The sequence (winds held → sealing → life) mirrors the Ezekiel vision (winds → breath → life).
- A great army – Ezekiel 37:10 says the revived bones "stood up upon their feet, an exceedingly great army." The 144,000 in Revelation form a comparable vast, organized host.
- Tribal Israel – Both passages center on the house of Israel. Ezekiel 37:11 identifies the bones as "the whole house of Israel," and the 144,000 are drawn specifically from the twelve tribes (Rev 7:4–8).
- Spirit/breath as life-giving – In Ezekiel, ruach (breath/spirit) is what animates the bones. In Revelation, the sealed ones are marked by God's Spirit, and the Lamb's song is something "no one could learn except" the 144,000 (Rev 14:3), implying a unique indwelling.
whats your logic here to make this conclusion ?
what I see is them being marked on earth and then being shown in heaven Mount sion the city god has prepared for them. That’s constantly spoken of in the scriptures .
i think of the range of prophecy we read grows it explains a lot more of the story honestly . I don totally understand why some believe in an earthly restoration and “ millenial “ riegn on this earth but there are reasons I myself don’t .
“When I asked my Brave Search Assistant to do a comparison of the 144,000 and the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37, here's what it tells me:”
Yes but how about your prayer study and consideration of the scriptures ? The more of the prophets you read you’ll see other parts of the story is what I’m thinking .
“So, the 144,000 are the firstfruits returning to earth during the Great Tribulation period to serve another purpose for those who remain on the earth?”
to be clear this is based on what your ai assistant declared the Bible means ?
and no I wasn’t saying they returned for the great tribulation ect I’m not sure you guys are reading what I’m writing or maybe I’m not writing what I think I am lol not sure
The people in revelation seven aren’t Israelites the group that’s forst marked is the tribes of Israel that whole area is based on other prophecy in the ot of what would happen before Jerusalem was destroyed ……
I think the reason all of us are having differences of opinions is because the Bible describes the Millennial Kingdom in both an earthly and a heavenly way to such a point that it's giving me whiplash.
But Revelation, chapter 7, is a scene of who comes out of the tribulation. It says that the 144,000 were made up of 12,000 people each from the 12 tribes of Israel, so they are definitely representing the House of Israel here. Then the multitude dressed in white robes are shown immediately afterwards. Verse 14 tells you that they all came out of the Great Tribulation.
What I find interesting here is that verse 15 tells you that they end up serving God DAY AND NIGHT IN HIS TEMPLE. There is no day, night, or temple in the permanent heavenly realm, which is why I believe the Millennial Kingdom on earth. When it later says that the Lamb will lead them unto living fountains of water, I'm picturing the fountain in Zechariah 13:1.
I'm going to go do some more research, because I think there's some definite meaning behind these verses posted below that we all haven't considered yet (I have to some degree, but I've never been able to totally reconcile it yet).
- Matthew 6:9–10 — "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
- Luke 11:2 — "And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
- Matthew 16:19 — "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18 — "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
I'm finding some interesting answers and I'll come back here later to post more information about that.
Well, I couldn't reconcile the possibility of a Millennial Kingdom going on in Heaven at the same time that it's going on in the earth. Everything I look at points me back to the earth.
As for the Bible verses showing that Abraham looked forward to the heavenly Jerusalem in Hebrews 11:10, he has obviously seen it by now. The only question left is whether he stays there during the Millennial Kingdom period and joins the rest of us later when the New Jerusalem joins earth, or he returns as one of the saints that joins Jesus Christ upon His return to earth in Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14-15.
When I read Zechariah, chapter 2, it's talking about Jesus dwelling among the midst of the nations and surrounding Jerusalem with a ring of fire to protect it because it has no walls due to Jerusalem being made up of many towns with multitudes of people and their cattle living in verse 4. That's an earthly scene not a heavenly one. We know that the heavenly Jerusalem has walls and gates based on Revelation 21 & 22. What sealed the earthly scene for me was the last verse in Zechariah 2.
Zechariah 2:13
13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.
So, I can only assume that Jesus will be raised up out of his holy habitation (the New Jerusalem) to return to earth in order to reign and dwell among the earthly Jerusalem and nations for His Millennial Kingdom reign before the New Jerusalem "descends from heaven" to meet us once again.
When I asked my Brave Search Assistant if Zechariah, chapter 2 was only written for the post-exile era, here is what it told me:
No — and the text itself resists being confined to the post-exilic period. Here's why:
The promises exceed what actually happened
Post-exilic Jerusalem was a small, walled, politically insignificant town under Persian rule. But Zechariah 2 describes:
- A city without walls, overflowing with people and livestock (vv. 2–5)
- Many nations joining themselves to the LORD and becoming "my people" (v. 11)
- God dwelling permanently in their midst (v. 10)
- A reversal where the plundered nations are plundered (v. 8)
You’re trying to reconcile Zechariah’s earthly imagery with Hebrews’ heavenly hope and Revelation’s final descent, and you’re doing it honestly — but the tension you’re feeling comes from assuming Scripture teaches two millennial locations (heaven and earth) that must be harmonized, when the texts you’re citing don’t actually require that structure.
Hebrews 11 shows Abraham looking for the heavenly city, but it never says he must leave it to participate in an earthly millennium;
Zechariah 2 describes God’s protective presence around Jerusalem, but its imagery is prophetic, not architectural — “towns without walls” and “a wall of fire” are covenant‑restoration symbols, not blueprints for a millennial capital.
And Zech 2:13 (“He is roused from His holy habitation”) doesn’t mean Christ leaves the New Jerusalem to begin a thousand‑year reign; it’s a prophetic call to silence because God is about to act in judgment and restoration.
The Brave Assistant’s answer is right about one thing:
Zechariah’s promises exceed the post‑exilic period — but exceeding that era doesn’t automatically place the fulfillment in a future earthly millennium.
The safest reading is this:
Zechariah uses earthly restoration language to point forward to the final reality Revelation describes, not to a temporary kingdom before it. I know, we been here before but I am determined to get you to see this... someday lol
In my response, I never said that Abraham had to leave the heavenly city, but Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14-15 implies that he might. Like I said, we may not be seeing Abraham until the heavenly city comes down from heaven to join the earth.
Your interpretation that Zechariah 2 as only symbolic imagery is just an opinion, like mine. What we do know is that Jesus physically returns to the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem and geographically changes the land before His reign, but it doesn't change it to the point of the dimensions and graphics described in Revelation 21 & 22 for the heavenly Jerusalem.
Here's how the earthly Jerusalem changes upon Jesus' return:
Zechariah 14:4 details the most specific topographical alteration:
- Mount of Olives Split: The mountain east of Jerusalem splits from east to west, forming a great valley with half the mountain moving north and half south.
- Earthquake: This event is accompanied by a massive earthquake.
- Living Waters: A river flows from Jerusalem, splitting to feed the eastern sea (Dead Sea) and western sea (Mediterranean) year-round.
- City Elevation: Jerusalem is raised up and inhabited in its place, becoming significantly higher than the surrounding plain which extends from Geba to Rimmon.
- River Impact: The river flows into the Dead Sea, turning it into fresh water and supporting abundant marine life, while also irrigating the Negev desert.
P.S. I'm determined to get you to see this! Wink! Wink!
LOL, Well, we going to see something I'm sure lolIn my response, I never said that Abraham had to leave the heavenly city, but Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14-15 implies that he might. Like I said, we may not be seeing Abraham until the heavenly city comes down from heaven to join the earth.
Your interpretation that Zechariah 2 as only symbolic imagery is just an opinion, like mine. What we do know is that Jesus physically returns to the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem and geographically changes the land before His reign, but it doesn't change it to the point of the dimensions and graphics described in Revelation 21 & 22 for the heavenly Jerusalem.
Here's how the earthly Jerusalem changes upon Jesus' return:
Zechariah 14:4 details the most specific topographical alteration:
Zechariah 14:8–10 describes subsequent hydrological and urban changes:
- Mount of Olives Split: The mountain east of Jerusalem splits from east to west, forming a great valley with half the mountain moving north and half south.
- Earthquake: This event is accompanied by a massive earthquake.
Isaiah 2:2–4 and Micah 4:1–3 add that the "mountain of the Lord’s house" (Jerusalem/temple area) will be established as the highest of mountains, lifted above the hills to become the global center of teaching and peace. Isaiah 35:1–6 notes the surrounding wilderness and desert will bloom and become fertile as a result of these changes.
- Living Waters: A river flows from Jerusalem, splitting to feed the eastern sea (Dead Sea) and western sea (Mediterranean) year-round.
- City Elevation: Jerusalem is raised up and inhabited in its place, becoming significantly higher than the surrounding plain which extends from Geba to Rimmon.
- River Impact: The river flows into the Dead Sea, turning it into fresh water and supporting abundant marine life, while also irrigating the Negev desert.
P.S. I'm determined to get you to see this! Wink! Wink!
You’re not wrong to notice the earthly details; you’re wrong to assume those details must describe a separate earthly phase before the heavenly Jerusalem descends. Prophetic literature regularly uses earth‑based metaphors to describe final eschatological realities, not intermediate ones. Yes, Zechariah 14 uses earth‑shaking, land‑reshaping imagery, and yes, prophets often describe God’s future reign in terms of mountains lifted, valleys split, rivers flowing, deserts blooming — but those images appear in texts that clearly point to the final restoration, not a temporary kingdom before it.
Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 describe the “mountain of the Lord” exalted above all hills, but Hebrews explicitly says we have come to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem — the prophetic mountain imagery is theological, not topographical.
Zechariah 14:4–10 describes cosmic upheaval, but Revelation uses the same upheaval language for the final renewal, not a pre‑renewal millennium.
And Zechariah 2:13 (“He is roused from His holy habitation”) is a prophetic call to silence before divine action, not a travel itinerary from the heavenly city to an earthly one.