Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

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Revelation1v8 said:
You said: "Revelation 7:15 doesn’t give you a mortal, sin‑and‑die millennium with a functioning earthly temple; it gives you resurrected saints in heaven, serving God “day and night” in His heavenly temple, the same one Revelation repeatedly locates in heaven, not on earth (Rev 11:19; 14:17; 15:5), and your “but New Jerusalem has no night!” objection only proves you’re mixing categories — Revelation 7 is before the descent of New Jerusalem, not inside it."

LOL! How am I mixing categories? The only thing you did in your argument above was contradict yourself. First you said that people were serving God "day and night" in His "heavenly temple". Then you said Revelation 7:15 is before the descent of the New Jerusalem, so how do you reconcile that if it's really NOT the "heavenly temple"??!!!
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You’re not catching the contradiction because there isn’t one—you’re just flattening the timeline.

Revelation gives you two distinct realities:

Now / pre–New Jerusalem: Heavenly temple exists. Resurrected saints serve God “day and night” in His temple (Rev 7:15), and John repeatedly sees “the temple in heaven” opened (Rev 11:19; 14:17; 15:5).

Final state / New Jerusalem: No temple at all. John explicitly says, “I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Rev 21:22), and no night there (Rev 21:25; 22:5).

So yes: Revelation 7:15 is heavenly temple before New Jerusalem descends; Revelation 21–22 is New Jerusalem with no temple and no night. You’re mixing categories by treating “heavenly temple” and “New Jerusalem” as the same phase, then demanding they share properties Scripture deliberately distinguishes.
 
tttallison said:
Paul said the Jews would be blinded until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled. I believe that time will be the harvest of the wheat and the tares. I believe the age of the Jew as pertaining to the law ended when Christ was crucified. That is why Paul said there is neither Jew nor Gentile, we are all one in Christ, and that is true for us in the age of the Gentile. But when the age of the Gentile is complete God will again deal with the Jew, and fulfill all his promises. The only place at that time that you will find a Jew will be in the earth, not on it.

There was the age of pre-flood, then there was post-flood, then the age of the law, then the age of the Gentile, and then the earth is given a rest. I believe Revelation expresses it this way, peace during the partition of ages, or silence in Heaven for half an hour. The Hebrew allows for either interpretation. The two root Hebrew words for half an hour can be interpreted as partition of time, or ages. That it is a thousand years is not expressed, but I feel sure that it is implied.

Ezekiel is the key, but the storyline is completed in many books. The resurrection in Ezekiel 37 is literal. The first time we here of God and Magog is in Ezekiel 38-39, and then after the millennium in Revelation 20. God is going to fulfill his promises to Israel, all of them. The people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah are in the ground right now, and Revelation20 speaks of the dead being resurrected. Ezekiel said they would be resurrected and become one again. The promise of the New Covenant pertains to both kingdoms, and will be fulfilled when they are resurrected. The Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and will be glad for the opportunity.

Details I am short on, but this is what I see.
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What do you mean when you say, "The only place at that time that you will find a Jew will be in the earth, not on it."?

What do you believe happens during this resting period? In Ezekiel 39 it shows that the House of Israel will spend 7 months burying all of the dead bodies and 7 years burning all of the weapons that were used during the battle.
 
OMC said:
Your entire framework is a theological Jenga tower built out of ages you invented, resurrections Ezekiel never teaches, a millennium Revelation never describes, and a future Mosaic reboot Hebrews explicitly forbids; Paul doesn’t say “the Jews will be blinded until the Gentile age ends and then God reinstates the law,” he says their blindness lifts when they turn to Christ (2 Cor 3:16), not when God resurrects them into a Levitical kingdom where Gentiles happily serve them.
Your “ages” (pre‑flood, post‑flood, law, Gentile, earth‑rest) are not biblical categories — they’re dispensational fan‑fiction — and your claim that Revelation’s “half an hour of silence” is actually “a partition of ages” is pure linguistic gymnastics, not exegesis.
Ezekiel 37 is not a literal resurrection of two ancient kingdoms so they can run a future Jewish empire; the NT applies Israel’s resurrection language to the church’s regeneration (Eph 2:5–6), not to a future geopolitical nation.
Gog and Magog appear twice because Revelation uses Ezekiel typologically, not because God is scheduling two literal invasions for your timeline.
And your finale — “Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and glad for the opportunity” — is exactly why your system collapses: it requires a future hierarchy the NT obliterates when it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus”. If this is “what you see,” fine — but what you’re seeing isn’t Scripture; it’s a patchwork kingdom stitched together from OT imagery the apostles already told you how to read.
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As for your statement: "And your finale — “Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and glad for the opportunity” — is exactly why your system collapses: it requires a future hierarchy the NT obliterates when it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus”. If this is “what you see,” fine — but what you’re seeing isn’t Scripture; it’s a patchwork kingdom stitched together from OT imagery the apostles already told you how to read."

We are not ALL one in Christ until the heaven and earth passes away and we're all together in Heaven. The only question that remains is how and when all of us get there.
 
tttallison said:
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.---

Who are the rest of the dead that are resurrected after the thousand years were finished? Do they partake in the battle of Gog in Magog?
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It is referring to the GWTJ.
They are raised into or for judgement.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
As for your statement: "And your finale — “Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and glad for the opportunity” — is exactly why your system collapses: it requires a future hierarchy the NT obliterates when it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus”. If this is “what you see,” fine — but what you’re seeing isn’t Scripture; it’s a patchwork kingdom stitched together from OT imagery the apostles already told you how to read."

We are not ALL one in Christ until the heaven and earth passes away and we're all together in Heaven. The only question that remains is how and when all of us get there.
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The Church is made up of Jew and Greek.
The Church therefore is one body...one new man.

The ethnic Jews are COVENANT PEOPLE.
Nothing will change Gods promise or commitment.

The Jews are waiting on the messiah.
Jesus is not known to them.
When he is revealed...THEN.... They will run to him.
We see it in Rev 14.
And in Romans ch 9 through 11.
 
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Psalm1 said:
The Church is made up of Jew and Greek.
The Church therefore is one body...one new man.

The ethnic Jews are COVENANT PEOPLE.
Nothing will change Gods promise or commitment.

The Jews are waiting on the messiah.
Jesus is not known to them.
When he is revealed...THEN.... They will run to him.
We see it in Rev 14.
And in Romans ch 9 through 11.
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Correct. A remnant of the ethnic Jews will become one in Christ with us once they do that. The question that still remains in this discussion is whether or not it happens on the current earth in Jesus' resurrected presence, and whether they are allowed to live in peace for 1,000 years afterwards. OMC doesn't believe so.
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
Correct. A remnant of the ethnic Jews will become one in Christ with us once they do that. The question that still remains in this discussion is whether or not it happens on the current earth in Jesus' resurrected presence, and whether they are allowed to live in peace for 1,000 years afterwards. OMC doesn't believe so.
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It is like what you are talking about.
What the literal meaning of passages is, and added to that the spiritual implications.
Beyond that there are "pointers" that point in a certain direction.
Then typology that is a "joiner" of what becomes obvious.
It is made obvious through those 4 things.

IOW, I can think something fits, then when tested in a council of believers, another person will bring the word REVEALED and now there is a crossroad of who is correct.

Testing my interpretations is actually a good thing.
 
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Psalm1 said:
It is like what you are talking about.
What the literal meaning of passages is, and added to that the spiritual implications.
Beyond that there are "pointers" that point in a certain direction.
Then typology that is a "joiner" of what becomes obvious.
It is made obvious through those 4 things.

IOW, I can think something fits, then when tested in a council of believers, another person will bring the word REVEALED and now there is a crossroad of who is correct.

Testing my interpretations is actually a good thing.
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When Jesus returns to earth as "King of Kings AND Lord of Lords" for battle in order to become King over all the earth like Zechariah 14:9 shows us, I can't help but believe that He stays on the earth because of how everything is written in Zechariah 13, specifically verses 8 and 9. If Jesus cuts 2/3 of the people out of the land and leaves 1/3 to REMAIN in the land, then we're talking about the current earth before it is renewed and regenerated. The 1,000 years fits perfectly within a timeframe for this renewal to happen and we know from Ezekiel 39 that it takes the remnant people (the 1/3) 7 months to bury all of the dead bodies and 7 years to burn all of the weapons used during battle. This won't be happening in Heaven, so there has to be a time on this earth where people will still be living after Jesus returns. The only thing that makes sense is that the 1,000 years starts on earth after Jesus' return to it and while He is still present on it to reign over the earth.
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
When Jesus returns to earth as "King of Kings AND Lord of Lords" for battle in order to become King over all the earth like Zechariah 14:9 shows us, I can't help but believe that He stays on the earth because of how everything is written in Zechariah 13, specifically verses 8 and 9. If Jesus cuts 2/3 of the people out of the land and leaves 1/3 to REMAIN in the land, then we're talking about the current earth before it is renewed and regenerated. The 1,000 years fits perfectly within a timeframe for this renewal to happen and we know from Ezekiel 39 that it takes the remnant people (the 1/3) 7 months to bury all of the dead bodies and 7 years to burn all of the weapons used during battle. This won't be happening in Heaven, so there has to be a time on this earth where people will still be living after Jesus returns. The only thing that makes sense is that the 1,000 years starts on earth after Jesus' return to it and while He is still present on it to reign over the earth.
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Pretty much so.
I agree
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
When Jesus returns to earth as "King of Kings AND Lord of Lords" for battle in order to become King over all the earth like Zechariah 14:9 shows us, I can't help but believe that He stays on the earth because of how everything is written in Zechariah 13, specifically verses 8 and 9. If Jesus cuts 2/3 of the people out of the land and leaves 1/3 to REMAIN in the land, then we're talking about the current earth before it is renewed and regenerated. The 1,000 years fits perfectly within a timeframe for this renewal to happen and we know from Ezekiel 39 that it takes the remnant people (the 1/3) 7 months to bury all of the dead bodies and 7 years to burn all of the weapons used during battle. This won't be happening in Heaven, so there has to be a time on this earth where people will still be living after Jesus returns. The only thing that makes sense is that the 1,000 years starts on earth after Jesus' return to it and while He is still present on it to reign over the earth.
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This reminds me of all of the previous discussions that we all had about who the ones are that are plucked up and which ones remain? In every case, the evil ones were the ones removed physically from the earth, for a new righteous style of life to start over again here. The same holds true in Zechariah 13:8-9.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
This reminds me of all of the previous discussions that we all had about who the ones are that are plucked up and which ones remain? In every case, the evil ones were the ones removed physically from the earth, for a new righteous style of life to start over again here. The same holds true in Zechariah 13:8-9.
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Ok
You lost me there.
In mat 24, it is the church plucked up first.( one taken, one left behind) ...before the flood.
In mat 25 it is the righteous plucked up first. ( 5 wise removed first)

With Noah, it was Noah plucked up first (entered the ark ahead of any trib., or removal of any other group)

With lot, it was lot plucked up first.

Why are the righteous removed first?
 
So, as a general note to this thread, how do we see "prophetic telescoping" happening in Revelation 19?

I don't think we can just assume that the "remnant" is slain by the word of His mouth at the same time as the earthly kings and captains because of verse 15.

Revelation 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Somewhere is the middle of all of this, there's a period of time where Jesus will smite the nations, be he will rule over them with a rod of iron, which we know won't be needed in Heaven.

While I believe everything will be fulfilled, there is nothing that proves the timing of any of the prophecies.
 
Psalm1 said:
Ok
You lost me there.
In mat 24, it is the church plucked up first.( one taken, one left behind) ...before the flood.
In mat 25 it is the righteous plucked up first. ( 5 wise removed first)

With Noah, it was Noah plucked up first (entered the ark ahead of any trib., or removal of any other group)

With lot, it was lot plucked up first.

Why are the righteous removed first?
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Like I said before, you're looking at Matthew 24 backwards. Those verses tell you that it was the evil people who were "swept away" with the flood and removed from the earth. You were confused based on the language on who was actually being swept away. You thought it was Noah as the righteous one, but it wasn't. Noah KNEW the flood was coming. The evil people who were "swept away" KNEW NOT according to the verse you were speaking of. Does this conversation bring back the memory of the message I conveyed?
 
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Revelation1v8 said:
Like I said before, you're looking at Matthew 24 backwards. Those verses tell you that it was the evil people who were "swept away" with the flood and removed from the earth. You were confused based on the language on who was actually being swept away. You thought it was Noah as the righteous one, but it wasn't. Noah KNEW the flood was coming. The evil people who were "swept away" KNEW NOT according to the verse you were speaking of. Does this conversation bring back the memory of the message I conveyed?
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It is an analogy.

What is there?
What is being framed?
What is literal?
What is impossible ?

If those are not the rules, then anyone can make a point to fit their doctrine.

Start with the impossible.
What in the analogy is impossible.?
That saves a ton of time and rabbit trails.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
Like I said before, you're looking at Matthew 24 backwards. Those verses tell you that it was the evil people who were "swept away" with the flood and removed from the earth. You were confused based on the language on who was actually being swept away. You thought it was Noah as the righteous one, but it wasn't. Noah KNEW the flood was coming. The evil people who were "swept away" KNEW NOT according to the verse you were speaking of. Does this conversation bring back the memory of the message I conveyed?
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Now you are basically rejecting the entire analogy and centering in on the impossible.
Show me where half the world is righteous and half wicked.

Show me what you are claiming to be true as scriptural.
It is your claim.

Your companion claim is that the entire planet of wicked people are destroyed preflood.

Why do you START interpreting off of impossibilities?????

Impossibilities are ALL rabbit trails.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
So, as a general note to this thread, how do we see "prophetic telescoping" happening in Revelation 19?

I don't think we can just assume that the "remnant" is slain by the word of His mouth at the same time as the earthly kings and captains because of verse 15.

Revelation 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Somewhere is the middle of all of this, there's a period of time where Jesus will smite the nations, be he will rule over them with a rod of iron, which we know won't be needed in Heaven.

While I believe everything will be fulfilled, there is nothing that proves the timing of any of the prophecies.
Click to expand...
Pretty much so.
I don't see a problem there
 
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OMC said:
Your entire framework is a theological Jenga tower built out of ages you invented, resurrections Ezekiel never teaches, a millennium Revelation never describes, and a future Mosaic reboot Hebrews explicitly forbids; Paul doesn’t say “the Jews will be blinded until the Gentile age ends and then God reinstates the law,” he says their blindness lifts when they turn to Christ (2 Cor 3:16), not when God resurrects them into a Levitical kingdom where Gentiles happily serve them.
Your “ages” (pre‑flood, post‑flood, law, Gentile, earth‑rest) are not biblical categories — they’re dispensational fan‑fiction — and your claim that Revelation’s “half an hour of silence” is actually “a partition of ages” is pure linguistic gymnastics, not exegesis.
Ezekiel 37 is not a literal resurrection of two ancient kingdoms so they can run a future Jewish empire; the NT applies Israel’s resurrection language to the church’s regeneration (Eph 2:5–6), not to a future geopolitical nation.
Gog and Magog appear twice because Revelation uses Ezekiel typologically, not because God is scheduling two literal invasions for your timeline.
And your finale — “Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and glad for the opportunity” — is exactly why your system collapses: it requires a future hierarchy the NT obliterates when it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus”. If this is “what you see,” fine — but what you’re seeing isn’t Scripture; it’s a patchwork kingdom stitched together from OT imagery the apostles already told you how to read.
Click to expand...

It almost sounds like you don't agree with me.;)
 
Revelation1v8 said:
What do you mean when you say, "The only place at that time that you will find a Jew will be in the earth, not on it."?

What do you believe happens during this resting period? In Ezekiel 39 it shows that the House of Israel will spend 7 months burying all of the dead bodies and 7 years burning all of the weapons that were used during the battle.
Click to expand...

If the dead in Christ are raised up, and the living in Christ are raised up, and the living that have rejected Christ are obliterated, then no Jew or Gentile will be left on earth. The only ones left are those in the ground that were not in Christ.

Those that went to the wedding are with Christ. On earth, the bricks crumble and the steel rusts, and the trees grow up through the roads. Can you imagine the dead that are resurrected (Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.---) when they see the strange buildings and rusted machinery scattered throughout their world?
After the battle with Gog of Magog there will be plenty of dead to bury.

Isa 49:17-23 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth. For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
 
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Psalm1 said:
It is referring to the GWTJ.
They are raised into or for judgement.
Click to expand...

You have to do better than that. The judgment takes place outside of the heaven and earth. These people are placed on earth before the battles of Gog with Jerusalem. And then there is an unspecified time before the end and judgment.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
As for your statement: "And your finale — “Gentiles will be subservient to the Jew and glad for the opportunity” — is exactly why your system collapses: it requires a future hierarchy the NT obliterates when it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus”. If this is “what you see,” fine — but what you’re seeing isn’t Scripture; it’s a patchwork kingdom stitched together from OT imagery the apostles already told you how to read."

We are not ALL one in Christ until the heaven and earth passes away and we're all together in Heaven. The only question that remains is how and when all of us get there
Click to expand...
Your claim that “we are not ALL one in Christ until heaven and earth pass away” is exactly backwards to Paul’s entire argument.
 
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