My Identity Issue and my pain (This thread is a sensitive topic)

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S

Strickalator

Guest
#1

I am writing this to you all here on Christian Chat, in that I have come to trust the general character and personality and the love that I see people sharing to fellow human beings. This website and chat rooms are one of the few places I feel I can get help and trust I will get honest answers. I hope that you will have the time to read this and respond to me, and if you don't please at least have someone you trust read it for you and perhaps then they can share the letter with you or you can read it together. I hope to get some responses, my life is literally on the line here. It's a very serious issue and I am reaching out to you because I cannot trust my family to talk about this without being in fear of being condemned and shunned. I have been blessed with many talents, but the craziness of my life has kept me from being who I am supposed to be in many,many ways.

I am hurting and I need a lot questions answered and I don't know where to begin. This will be a long letter so please bear with me as I express to you my soul.


I have had a very strange and painful life especially as a child but as an adult it has been just back forth between being happy and miserable with everything that I do. I was abused by my mom and my step dad, mostly emotionally but sometimes physically. It has taken years for me to forgive my parents for the things that happened. I grew up in a boys ranch since my parents got divorced when I was 11. I spent most of my life being treated for schizophrenia, when in fact I was never that way, only as an adult was I finally able to get a real diagnosis that states I am Bi Polar instead, after being on the wrong medication for so many years though, it took its toll on me.

I have no idea who I really am anymore, and I am struggling as far as my gender identity and orientation is concerned. Been struggling off and on with this for a very long time. I am now 40 years old.

Now please before you judge me know that I am a Christian and have been one since I was 16 years old. I am writing this letter to let you know I was and always “had” been a conservative christian and was raised to believe certain things. But now everything is going topsy turvy for me and I need your help and advice.

I have been comfortable being who I am now(and how I was raised) at times and other times I have been completely sick and depressed and just wanted everything to change and to actually live as female. But I did not start to really think about this until I dressed up as a woman once in public and went to work as a woman in all practical sense. I worked in a movie theater and I even stood out in line waving at people as they came in and the manager thought it was terrific.

This was 1995. The other time that I dressed in female clothing was when we went to a party, my neighbor dressed as a male and we went to a party together. This was 1991.

When I was 15 and living at the boys ranch I spent a lot of time magically transforming myself into a woman when I was there at certain times. Mostly though I thought it was just a phase.

But traveling back in time further when I was 10 I used to wear my moms pantyhose when she wasn't home or dad wasn't home and I was sure I could do it. I remember how it felt so wonderful to wear smooth and silky garments.

Fast forward in time to 1997 I moved to San Francisco and for a brief time thought about living as female to some degree and almost did but decided to move to Los Angeles and to to get work as a movie extra. So I buried the female me, and went back to the male me and got by until again in 2001 I finally went to a therapist to talk about feeling like I was the wrong gender. I talked for a month, but I got scared and self conscious. I stopped going because I was convinced I would burn in hell for thinking and feeling this way. Which is a another huge problem for me, I am a Christian and I believe in God and Jesus and I know its all very real. So I buried these thoughts and feelings and moved back to Texas where most of my family is. I have been here since 2004. Now In the last week I am overwhelmed by feelings of regret and loneliness and also guilt that I am not living as who I really am. But also still wrestling with how to still be a Christian who wants to look and act and be female in every possible way (part of the time for now) and at the same time also be in a relationship with a woman. I am single now and I am not living the life I should be. But I do not know how to even make this all seem OK in my spirit. I truly am hurting in more ways than you can know by reading this text.

Please understand that I have asked God to take these feelings and thoughts away from me, just let me be your willing servant Lord. I have rebuked them in the name of Jesus, and yet the feelings are still there. Please know that I have been sincere, saying God if this is wrong and not in your will please just take it away, this is a temptation that is too great for me to bear. Maybe he will take it all away. I pray that if I am in sin that he will.
 
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S

Strickalator

Guest
#2

It all began for me really though when I suspected I may have klienfelter syndrome, I show secondary sex characteristics of the other gender, I have very small genitalia which I hate and can't ever make normal love to a woman in that way. I have gynecomastia and have always had very large pectorials, even when I was thin. I am not masculine and I am not aggressive either.

So a lot of things to be concerned about.

I never ever posted anything that supported homosexuality or being transgender before. In fact, until 2 months ago, I had considered all of that to be sinful and demonic and part of the Anti-Christ. I found same sex to be wrong, wanting nothing to do with the liberal lefts agenda, lumping all of these activities together, as I saw a lot of things that I knew for sure were sins in Hollywood. Yet now my eyes are opening and I wonder If I am being deceived or If in fact I am seeing this clearly for the 1st time like it seems.

Now I am hearing and learning about scriptures in a new way, so that I can compare them to the way I have been taught and see if it has any merit. I am testing all of it to see if in fact it goes against the word of God. So far its been sensible. But I have heard mistakes being made from both the left and the right. So I will keep seeking the Lord for wisdom.

Back in 2001 I was running away from the law for some thefts of checks (a very bad time in my life where I was not being the good version of myself) because of my intense gambling problem at the time. I had went to jail for a a while, after turning myself in, then was out on probation and skipped probation for a month and went to Vegas.

Anyways near the last part of January of 2001 I had been staying at a room with other people in the house. I had this intense dream one night unlike any other dream I had before. It was booming and loud like thunder, shaking my very core, a very intense bright being of light changed shape before my eyes, sometimes appearing like a dove, often appearing as energy in a constant shifting form. Then a voice spoke to me, rumbling and thunder accompanied the voice and said "I know who you are, you are Shawn Strickland The Strickalator”

I woke up trembling and visibly shaken. I was shocked and amazed, I immediately realized it was God. Was he telling me not to change my name (which I had planned to do along with my gender at the time, well i should say begin the idea by going to counseling) was he telling me not to run away from my probation and Go back? Or was he telling me to not change my gender.

I was fixing to go about all this in the wrong way, changing my fingerprints and running away from family and friends feeling like I had to completely hide everything from everyone.

Was he in fact telling me to deal with all of these issues at the same time? How to deal with them exactly? Was the dream just a dream like some will say, was it just my subconscious? I have had dreams about things I that were on my subconscious mind before and they were never anything like that.

After this i called my mom, my lawyer and told them how I was feeling and why I ran away from the probation place they had me staying at.

After this they all told me to come back. I went back to California, to the judge with my lawyer we both explained what was happening. The judge took pity on me and sent me to go to another place that offered counseling and housing and I was in all essence free again as a citizen but just under probation. I have since paid my debt to society for the thefts of checks. I have been off probation for a while.

*note* I should say that while I was in Jail I had 2 other dreams, one dream was of me being chained to a a tree or a wall, chained up by my hands, all around me was dead trees in a field of light/grey/purple goo and people rising from the goo moaning and crying and in pain. I then saw a chalice of gold and jewels come before me filled with blood, it splashed on me cutting my chains as it did. I woke up feeling free and light.

The 2nd dream that followed was close in time to this. I dreamt I was in an office sky scraper building very high up. In the center was myself on the floor either sitting or kneeling. I was surrounded by 12 people dressed in Royal and Elegant Golden and Jewel Encrusted Garments. They all began splashing water on me a chalice they each held in there hand. Were these angels or the 12 disciples maybe? I then saw Jesus smiling at me warmly and lovingly out the window of the room in the sky, his hair blowing as if it were window. I just saw his face larger than life though not his entire body.

All these dreams were so different than any other I had ever in my life. I understand the 1st 2 dreams and came to accept the 3rd dream as telling me my name to mean deal with all of the things and just be "Shawn"

So you see I'd like to understand more about the 3rd dream. What was God warning me about exactly? What do you think?

And Yet, I had another dream recently though that went against the grain of what I had dreamt before a long while ago.

The dream starts out (as much as i can remember) of me being in a room that resembled a shower or a gym or some other type of bathhouse or something like it. No water was running anywhere but there were mostly men in there and some women. My focus was on two men making love to one another, and I did not want to see it so I turned around started walking another direction. I think I was about to leave the place or at least leave the area, when I ran into 2 more men who I thought were gay, they started admiring me and talking with me. They looked like the average guy, and yet kinda like me, not being masculine or feminine. After some time they started getting closer to me. I then raised my voice and said "no no I'm not gay".

As soon as I said this the 2 "guys" as it were leaned in even closer and said "but we are mtf (male to female) and we are in transition". And then after I heard them say it EVERYTHING about them changed. They all of the sudden looked and talked like women, had a different smile, a different demeanor and different clothes! They then got even closer to me and for some reason I said "oh heh, I'm mtf (male to female)too" then they said to me "oh you are"? "we thought you were a heterosexual guy" I then said "yeah well i still have a bit of a beard" (heh which is funny cause i don't have a beard in real life) Mind you I don't even know these people in real life at all, never met them and never saw them. And yet as soon as we both revealed to each other who we were it was as if we had been the bestest of friends for years and years! In the waking world I don't even know how to identify myself and need counseling, but something is obviously there.

So I think I understood what happen in this dream. Right now it seems to me that these were layers of fears and misconceptions and concerns and as soon as I let them go, I will begin to see people as they are. Also the people in the dream began to see me in a new way too. They all seemed to have their own fears or misconceptions of me as well. Did I interpret my own dream right? Or do you see something else there?

Now I have come to accept at this point in my life that a person really can be intersexed, the other things I am not clear on. I still need help and advice and some clear “honest” answers.

Dr. Phil and Tyra Banks both had a show about transgender children, doctors on the program explaining that something happens to the fetus of the child that gives them a female or a male brain or somewhere in between of the spectrum of possibilities. This makes total sense to me. These were all done post mortem these tests, but it still helps to know.

I am doing some physical tests for klienfelter syndrome now because I need some kind of comfort, I am also having them to confirm my suspicions. The doctor I am seeing also feels that something is different. I have a 1 in 750 chance of having klienfelter syndrome at the very least. Not all klienfelter people transition into something though, most seem to take testosterone and try to appear as a more manly person to feel good about their body. Somehow though this does not appeal to me at all. After 13 years of waiting for insurance to pay for this, I finally was able to find this doctor here in Texas that was willing to help me eliminate some possibilities or perhaps confirm them as to why I feel the way I do. I just had my blood drawn to test for any sort of intersexed condition including klinefelter syndrome since i have some symptoms of it. I am also doing a hormone test of all the hormone levels in my body, then will be in a few days testing for fertility.

I have always known something was different about me. When I hear about other people stating they feel both male and female, this somehow seems like where i fit into the spectrum.

I have no real answers yet. I want to help my body, mind and spirit. So having especially that Karyotype test to see if I am really XXY or something like that, will be a blessing regardless of the outcome. I am not nor have I ever felt like a typical male, and have often felt more female than male.

If it turns out I am some other kind of intersex, Then I can make peace with that, if I am not I can also make peace with that too. If I am klienfelter then at least I have an explanation as to why I don't have impressive male parts and have secondary sex characteristics of a woman. But it is very possible to have both klienfelter and be transsexual as some have suggested, there is no rule saying these two are exclusive of each other. There are at least a dozen other ways I know of that are chromosomal or hormonal intersexed conditions or a combination thereof.

But yeah I am OK with whatever the results say, I think in fact it would be cool to be XXY , when I was taking the test and the young lady was drawing my blood , she did not know what these tests were for exactly and she asked me. I gladly told her what they are and began to explain to her that humans have all sorts of chromosomal variations. She thought it was neat that a person was not necessarily XX or XY at birth. She said "wow, really? That's cool"

Someone told me though that the “why” is not important about how I am feeling, I responded by saying “well what about people that get cancer from smoking, for years and years people did not know "why" they were getting sick, then they found out the cigarettes where in fact the "why" and a warning was put on them.” My dad died from cancer. If we never find out the why about certain things, we will not know "how" to help the situation.

I am not saying that I will get all the answers, but for me personally trying to understand why I am the way I am, taking all these tests, will allow me to accept the way I am, because then I can get to know all of me, unlocking things that I hid away, discovering truths and ruling out certain things or even confirming them, and spiritually in the bible for me to know that all of the sudden these so called clobbering versus people use, saying that it is wrong, in fact might mean something else entirely, within the context of the time 2000-4500 years ago makes me really wonder. As is said often in GI Joe cartoons "Now I know, and knowing is half the battle"!

Well see for me its not a belief, but a truth of existence, mind you some Christians keep twisting things to fit what they want, still I know that God is love and the devil is the opposite of love which is hate. The reason I tell people I believe in God and Jesus is not because I have an ego. I do it because I want them to be able to experience the love and joy I feel inside about this part of my existence. I do it because I would like to see them again as a friend in the after life.

Lets take for instance there is a giant hornet about to sting someone on the back, most any good person on this earth would warn them immediately that they are about to get stung and suffer some pain. Since I have been stung before I know what it is like and I would warn them. even people who have not been stung would warn them most likely (unless they were heartless or immature). So to me the devil is the giant hornet, I can't simply stand by and watch people get stung. I care about them too much to do that. Of course I don't force myself on anyone, rather instead I just show my love to them, and if they ask me why I am so nice to them even if they hurt me I will let them know why. It depends on the situation.

Maybe this is a poor analogy but the truth is, no matter what I do, or which direction I take, I am going to be an outcast to some people and a hypocrite to some as well. It is strange and difficult path to consider ones self a Christian Transgender, of this I can see.

I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the LGBT are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are LGBT, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" I'm going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

1st off let me say that in being a Christian, it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere, to be hated on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the LGBT community. This in to part to the fact that I was raised and preached from the bible on any of that being acceptable before God's eyes.

In regards to everything that has been said so far, and everything I have read and whats in my heart, I still have to tell you that warning sirens, bells and whistles are going off in my head. I feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me to run away, very quickly, before I become deceived, and start accepting certain things and then as time would progress be so caught up under its control that I would not be able to or want to turn back. We are talking about my eternal life here , for those of you that don't believe , this is not a light thing to be just swept under the rug here. We only get to live for 100 years or so at best. I would rather spend 100 years of living with my current state, than risk having to spend an eternity in hell, separated from God, not because he wanted me to go there, but because he cannot simply allow any kind of sin into heaven. Only Good can exist there in heaven. But again no matter what I do, the evidence is stacking up at least in the science and sermons I have been hearing lately from the United Church of Christ and a few other churches.


You know I really would like to believe and accept LGBT 100% It would be so simple to just accept everything and anyone’s ideas, and follow the wide path as it seems, which is easy, its the narrow path that is hard.

But if it is supposed to be OK and something I can do without any worries to my soul, why do I still feel convicted not to do this thing, why do I still feel guilty, why do i still feel like I would be betraying my family and hurting them if I did this thing? Is this a false guilt I am feeling. I can hear God clearly on other concerns in my life and yet this one is all jumbled up in my head. Like I said it sure feels an awful lot like the same guilt you feel when the Holy Spirit is speaking to you.

But also I feel like now all of my life I lived in a remote Amish Village where I was told the sky was RED, I believed it was red and accepted it was red, cause everyone else said so! Then it is like I met someone on a Rumspringa who showed me a piece of fabric that was blue, pointed to it and said "This is BLUE" "The Sky is also this color"! And then, even though that person told me it was blue and I could clearly see it was the same as the fabric they showed me, I got scared because people I loved and knew real well insisted It was still RED and I would pay a horrible price for accepting that it was BLUE. Its like the fog is starting to lift and I can plainly see now that indeed the sky during the day is in fact "BLUE"!

But After 2 months of researching science and talking with people on forums, looking at various websites, watching documentaries and spending time in constant prayer I still have this one issue that's tugging at my heart. I have come to know that the bible does not speak out about being either intersexed or transgender. For me personally I can be at peace with that.

When I try to wrap my head around the idea of orientation though its still a problem, I hear a lot of people saying they are also "born that way" and a few have pointed me to websites that have good sermons on the issue. However, I still can't get past this small still voice inside my head and heart that says this is still wrong.

There is not as much science about ones orientation vs being intersexed or transgender. The fact that there are questionable verses in the bible about homosexuality leaves me to pause and consider. I have gone to many websites and listened to many sermons, including wouldjesusdiscriminate.org
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#3
I am trying to keep and open mind and understand.


It takes me a few times to hear these audio sermons and the written ones and have it make sense. Even after hearing all the evidence, why do I still feel guilty about entertaining that idea? Why do I still feel like I would be separated from God and loose my salvation if I accept that final part?

The fact that some people say hormones can change orientation, the fact that some have said they were heterosexual and then decided they were homosexual, that a few say they choose to be, that some experiment and then go back. I thought the idea here was you were born that way?

Sorry there is still not a clear answer for me here. Eternity is an awful long time to be separated from God. I can't just do what I feel is good, because things that I know for sure are sins can also give off the idea of "feeling" good.

This is the last area of humanity I need to understand. But please read my letter some more so you can see where my feelings and thoughts are leading.

For the person who is hurting and suffering like me, it's about feeling guilty, essentially brainwashed into feeling guilty, not hard to do when the people you love are doing it out of fear or lack of info, and being told you are worthless and a sinner and not going to heaven. Being considered an outcast by everyone on all sides.

It seems People do not want to see what the bible really said. (I too am just starting to see what it is maybe saying) People did not care that throughout history in just about every culture there has been people that were born that way. Even today many people are shocked to learn babies are not always born in one gender and don't always display expected sex characteristics of gender given.

Women can have XY Chromosomes and still be women on the outside save for some internal gonads, and have AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrom) which does not allow them to absorb any testosterone, and in fact creates more testosterone than normal, and yet it all gets converted into estrogen. Doctors have destroyed or lost records, families have hidden the truth about such births. Or have done surgeries on babies to assign a binary gender as male or female.

The Clownfish (the finding nemo fish) can actually change its gender all the way 100% when the head female dies, the male assumes the female role, then the next in line largest male becomes her mate. Many Many creatures are bisexual or asexual , not just humans.

**I just recently learned of Mel White and SoulForce.org ** It seems Mel had these feelings many years ago about being gay and there were not that many people who cared when he was growing up. There was little or no science behind it.

Just learned quite a bit about this man who use to ghost write for Jerry Falwell, came out as being gay, started the movement called Soul Force for the entire LGBT Community and spent 30 years in therapy :

That's a very long time and here I have only been asking God to take it away for a short time.

**”After almost 3 decades of counseling and “anti-gay” therapy including prayer, fasting, exorcism, and electric shock, Mel White was able to reconcile his Christian theology and his sexual orientation. At his installation, Mel proclaimed his own, heart-felt statement of faith: “I am gay. I am proud. And God loves me without reservation.” **

I was like wow, electric shock?? Really?? I had already heard about exorcisms, but didn't they also try to cure people with schizophrenia with electric shocks? And before electric shocks use to drill holes in the head and perform a blood letting?

I was amazed at the testimony from him. I have kind of been on the fence here struggling with these issues of gender and especially orientation I did not have anyone to turn to that was Christian and "Different" like me. Now it seems the more I look, the more I find. One thing I am still trying to understand here, I have seen time and time again gays and lesbians in the media, on a forum or in a blog, yell it out loud to anyone who will listen "I am a lesbian, I like women" "I am gay, I like men" or "I am bisexual and I like both" “I was born this way”

Yet a lot of people say Hormones (HRT) can alter a persons orientation to some degree and also can do a 180 on a person. This seems scary to me, does that not sound like a fundamentalist Christians answer to cure the gay out of someone? "Here take this hormone combination for 2 years, and you will be attracted to women forever and ever" or "here you go mam, after 2 years of this treatment of hormones, you will now go crazy for a guy again"

How far does this go here? It has been said to me that we are all bisexuals to some extent, and yet I have met people that are 100% adamant about being heterosexual or lesbian or gay, would never change, no ifs and's or buts. Does not the mere fact that hormones alter you in at least some way, not suggest that the statement "I was born this way" loses some impact?

I just talked with another Christian Lady yesterday, and I tested her spirit and asked questions, she agreed that slavery was wrong, that denying interracial marriage was wrong, that denying women rights was wrong, however she had a shocked look on her face when I told her that people are born with chromosomal variances and sex developments. I said I might be XXY and I told her what that was. She immediately asked me if that was suggesting people are born gay, I told her that they were separate things. (However a hormonal wash on the fetus has been suggested as to contribute to a persons orientation)

So she was a fairly good Christian, I think she was just uninformed, as this is a very small town in Texas. So yeah I think also like you i am helping my counselor to see things she did not know about before.




But wait! Guess what my current pastor told me? I finally decided to talk to them about these issues (this is a conservative small church I am in) She is a female pastor. I asked her how she felt about intersexed people that are born with both genders. I asked her if they should have to choose a gender and have an operation. She said "NO" they do not have to have an operation and "YES" they can get married to someone else as long as that person is comfortable with them having both male and female parts. Or they can choose to have a surgery if they want to. but they don't have to. I was really surprised to hear her say this. Then I asked her if transgender people have the same issue. I asked her would God accept them for who they are and she affirmed "YES" to me. I asked her if God would condemn people to hell that are gay,bisexual or lesbian. She said even though sexual preference is a "Grey area" in the bible she does not believe for one moment God would reject them. As long as they accept the fact that Jesus is Lord.

I then also asked her about Abortion. She said if a woman is in a position where they can't afford to raise a child or go through with the pregnancy , that they really need to pray about it and not make any rash decisions. She did say for certain if they were raped or forced incest upon that they should terminate the pregnancy. The only time she said it would be wrong would be if you simply just decided all of the sudden you did not want to "just cause" with no real reason why. Tricky matter there though.

I asked her about other religions, are they a test of God to see if we believe in Jesus, She said "NO" these were just our attempts to understand God before Jesus walked the earth. As a Christian its not your job to force anyone to believe anything. Let them accept it if they can.

I even asked her would it not be safer to just put these things aside and ignore them instead of risking my eternal salvation. She said simply "If you are living a lie, not being true to yourself, how can you then be an effective witness to other people about Jesus"? Again reminding me that she says God would not tell me "I know you not, depart from me". She did give pause though to people who are inter sexed, she believes that they should still choose an outward gender, and live as either male or female, just simply did not agree that they should go back and forth between looking male or female.


STILL, IS THAT NOT AMAZING? A christian pastor in a small Texas church saying and believing this things! I know she is not filled with demons or the devil, I have seen her fruits of the spirit, she is a strong witness for the Lord. She herself as a female pastor has had to deal with hate and bigotry in the church. Other Christians can in fact feel if something is evil or demonic, she told me I need pray to know the difference.

I asked her finally how do I know the difference between my own guilt and the Holy Spirit convicting my heart on something. Again she said "Are you being an effective witness by lying to yourself, by not being who you are, always unhappy and always struggling with yourself"?


I also found a Christian counselor (therapists) that says on her website and in psychology today, that she deals with gender/orientation issues. (she has the following training MS Counselor , MED, LPC , CHt, BCPC, CISM)When I went there everything seemed to be fine, even got up to the point of talking about intersexed people and we were fine. Then after telling her the big problem, she got a little worried and after telling her everything she made a comment about it being against God. However i argued with her telling her that I was indeed a Christian, that I tried to pray it away and had done everything to let it go.

So she put all that aside and then I asked her what I can do to remember events that are blocked out, remember why I started feeling the way I do, she had advertised hypnotism on her website. I asked about this, she said she could help me even remember things that happened in the womb, which I had never heard of. She also said she would begin a session by offering me helpful suggestions to relax and be in a trance. I also told her that I had been told and had thought it was possible I was possessed by demons, she agreed and said it was possible, but not necessarily the case. I got a bad feeling though like she wants to put suggestions in my head to change me. I told her 3 times I just want to understand myself and remember things, please do not deceive me. I am going back one more time to see if she keeps her word as a therapist. The only thing she seems to agree with so far is that people are born intersexed but beyond that she still feels the rest is against God.


So I really need to hear from you please, have you already discovered what to do or have other views about this, how do I come to terms with being able to live as the sex I feel I am supposed to be. Or maybe instead I can embrace being both male and female genetically or just simply having a female brain in a male body. Or some variation on these ideas? It's all still very new and complicated to me and I am not interested in loosing my salvation and being separated from God.

It is not enough for me to just do what I want, it has to be something God says I can do. I cannot just do a thing because it feels good, I really don't like the "I'm OK, your OK, everything is OK, there is no sin, do whatever feels good" response I have been getting. I need to be able to come to terms with this because I know in my heart that God and satan exist. I know that the devil is very capable of pulling the wool over my eyes and deceiving me.



Am I really a man>? Some days I feel fine being in this body, other days it disgusts me and I want to look and feel different. On The inside in my brain I have often felt I was both genders, but the female part of me is becoming a stronger factor every day. Whats more is I am attracted to women. So That would make me a lesbian? That idea seems out of reach for me. This really boggles my mind now. But I hear some lesbians hate transgenders and claim they are not real women also, and would not want a relationship with anything other than a woman born with a woman's body. So how do you deal with that?




So let me conclude this letter (I hope you had the patience and time to read something this long).

I will also be posting on other forums like this to the folks I have respect for on both sides of the coin. I hope that what you write back to me will offer me some real help. I need to find my place in this world and I know that I have a purpose and that my life has value and meaning.

I look forward to hearing from you all and I will be taking a very long time to work this all out and considering every word that will be given to me. In the end I have to come to terms with God and myself and eternity so that is what I am most concerned about. But I need to understand the whole thing or else I will be living a life that would be a shadow of itself.


Love,

Shawn Strickland

“The Strickalator”
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
#4
We die to self, you look too much behind.

When we accept Yahshua the Messiah into our hearts we do not need to consider all the wrongs against us.

Consider only that we have been wrong and can be forgiven by Yahvah God through Yahshua the Messiah.

When you open your heart to the truth you will find less self time to consider all these thoughts.


You receive the power to overcome temptations of the flesh, the "me" goes and there is safety in that.

You need to draw on Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah each and every day.

Renew the oil for your Lamp... You come to us, and I say search your heart, it is the unlocked door you need to open to let Yahshua the Messiah cast this "demon" out of you.

Read through the Bible and see how evil spirits had to be cast out of many people, know that it is not you but an evil spirit tormenting you.

You need to open that door once and for all to rid this spirit out of you.

It is not you it is a torment that you must overcome by opening your heart and dying to self.


I will pray for you.

You must open that door to Yahshua the Messiah he can overcome this for you.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#5
Thank you for praying for me, I will also keep praying, but I need to point out the things I have been learning. I found the following sermon online about : What was the sin of Sodom? (Genesis 19 and Jude 7) This text is an excerpt from The Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-sex Relationships.


The Genesis 19 account of Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of attempted gang rape of two "outsiders." It says nothing about loving gay relationships, and actually condemns the sort of violence sometimes done to gays and lesbians. Jude 7 talks about a first century Jewish legend that the women of Sodom had sex with male angels. Since it is about heterosexual sex between angels and humans, it clearly has nothing to do with gay relationships.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is perhaps the best known of the "clobber passages" that some try to use against gay people. This story is told in one of the oldest books in the Bible, and has been a favorite among artists and writers for centuries. Even if you have never read the Old Testament account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, you have probably seen it portrayed in a movie or book. Since the biblical account is very long, we will paraphrase it here. You can find the original in Genesis 19 and the preceding chapters.

Abraham had a nephew named Lot who moved to Sodom. At the time, Sodom was considered a comfortable, modern, sophisticated city, and Lot thought it would be a better place to raise his family than out on the plains with Abraham, who was a nomad. Unfortunately, the city was also full of wickedness, and God told Abraham that it would soon be destroyed. Two angels were sent to assess the situation in Sodom, and when Lot saw them in the town square, he invited them to his house for dinner and lodging. He did not recognize they were angels. He seems, however, to have felt a responsibility to be hospitable to strangers — perhaps because he remembered having been a stranger himself.

That night, when the city dwellers learned Lot had welcomed two strangers into his house and into their city, all the people gathered at his door. They demanded that Lot deliver the two men to them so they might “know them.” (Genesis 19:5) (The Hebrew word translated “know” in this passage is sometimes used in Scripture to mean sexual intercourse, and given the context of the passage, that is probably what it means here. (See note 1.)) Lot pleaded with his neighbors not to do such an evil thing. In a despicable act, he even offered them his virgin daughters instead, but the men persisted. Finally, the angels struck all those outside with blindness and warned Lot and his family they should leave the city because God would soon destroy it for its wickedness. The very next day, fire came down from heaven and destroyed the city and all its inhabitants.

Since the Middle Ages, many Christian theologians have viewed this story as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality. They have perpetuated the idea that Sodom was destroyed for its sexual wickedness and that the proof of this wickedness was the desire of the men of Sodom to have homosexual sex. Let’s test this interpretation against both the facts relayed in Genesis 19 and the interpretation of the story by later authors of the Bible. First, let’s examine the facts.

The text of the story tells us that “the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man” (vs. 4) gathered at Lot’s door and demanded that his guests be brought out to them. This language is important because it makes clear that the group at Lot’s door was comprised of either all the people of the city (men and women) or, at a minimum, all the males of the city, both boys and men. This is a telling fact.

Today, San Francisco has the reputation for being the “gayest” city in the world. Yet even in San Francisco, gay men constitute far less than half the total male population. If the Scripture text had told us that “certain men of Sodom” or even “many men of Sodom” gathered at the door, we might then surmise that the men at the door could have been motivated by homosexual desire. But the text says “both young and old, all the people to the last man” gathered at the door. To suggest that every man and boy in Sodom was homosexual is simply not credible. Any reasonable interpretation of the story must account for the fact that all the males of Sodom (both homosexual and heterosexual), and perhaps even the women, participated in this attack. Something other than homosexual desire seems to have been at work here.

This point is reinforced by another fact recounted in the story. We are told that Lot, in a last-ditch effort to save his guests, offered his virgin daughters to the men at the door. Although Lot’s offer is reprehensible, it does yield another important interpretive clue. Suppose you were hosting a dinner party, when suddenly a group of men that you knew to be homosexual began angrily beating on the door, demanding that you send out a male guest from your house. Would it make any sense to offer them a beautiful woman instead? Of course not! If the men were motivated by homosexual desire, offering them heterosexual sex instead would be nonsensical. Lot knew the men of Sodom much better than any of today’s fundamentalist preachers do. And it’s obvious he believed the crowd outside his door was predominantly heterosexual. Why else would he offer his daughters?

Although it might be simpler to blame what took place in Genesis 19 on homosexuals, the facts indicate that something far more encompassing and complex was taking place. But what? If the motivation for the attack was not homosexual desire, then what was it?

Christopher John Farley, A Beating In Brooklyn, Time.com: Time Magazine Archive, August 25, 1997.
Consider an example from modern times. On August 9, 1997 in New York City, two white police officers were strip-searching a black Haitian immigrant named Abner Louima and grew angry with him. They dragged him into a bathroom and, while one officer held him down, the other repeatedly rammed a broken broom up Louima’s rectum. While they did this, the officers reportedly yelled things like, “We’re gonna teach you n****rs to respect police officers!” In the aftermath of this terrible incident, nobody has suggested the assault was motivated by homosexual desire. Intuitively, we recognize the two officers were motivated by hatred and fear of people like Abner Louima. In their minds, there was no better way to demean and humiliate an “enemy” than to sexually violate him.

This same evil motivation is behind the vulgar phrase “F**k you!” That’s why, when Tyler is poking along the highway in his ’87 Honda Civic and an angry man in a Ford F150 flies by and flips him the finger, Tyler doesn’t think, “Oh, he must think I’m cute!” Tyler knows the man is angry — maybe angry enough to brutalize him.

Note 3. On pages 130 and 147 of The Construction of Homosexuality (University of Chicago Press, 1988), David F. Greenberg discusses the use of sexual intercourse as a form of humiliation. Martti Nissinen in Homoeroticism in the Biblical World (Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1998) says, “Homosexual rape has been a traditional way of establishing the relationship with captured enemies and foes.” (page 48)
From archeological records, we know it was also a common practice in the Near East during ancient times for soldiers to use homosexual rape as a way of humiliating their enemies. (See note 3.) When victorious soldiers wanted to break the spirit of their defeated enemies, they would “treat them like women” by raping them. The practice was not driven by sexual desire, but by brutality and hatred toward the enemy.

The motivation to sexually abuse those we hate is, sadly, part of the general human experience (even if it is not part of each of our personal experiences). And it is this motivation, not homosexual desire, which stands behind the sin of Sodom. Perhaps the men of that city feared the two angelic strangers were spies. Perhaps the fact that Lot (a recent immigrant) had taken them in served to heighten their suspicion. Whatever caused their panic, a mob mentality took over, and before long the people of Sodom were at Lot’s house clamoring to brutalize the strangers. This is a story about attempted mob violence, not homosexual desire.

To test this proposition, let’s ask a simple question. Suppose the two angels in the story had been women, but the story otherwise unfolded exactly the same: The men of Sodom clamored to have sex with the two female angels and God destroyed the city. Do you think anyone would conclude this story was a blanket condemnation of heterosexuality? Of course not! Instead, we all would conclude (correctly) that the wickedness of Sodom was shown by their desire to sexually violate two strangers in their midst.

Likewise, Jewish scholars did not associate the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah with homosexuality until Philo in the first century AD and not with any measure of consistency until the sixth century..

In fact, this is the way other authors of the Bible interpreted this story. There are about twenty references to the story of Sodom in the Bible, and none of them says homosexuality was the sin of Sodom. One of the most extensive references to Sodom is found in Ezekiel, which says, “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.” (Ezekiel 16:49-50 (See note 5.)) It is clear from this passage (and others like it (See note 6.)) that the abomination of Sodom, according to the Old Testament prophets, was that they behaved with callous indifference toward the weak and vulnerable — the poor, orphans, widows, and strangers in their midst.

Why then do some Christians interpret this story as condemning all homosexual behavior? We would submit that their interpretation is driven by anti-gay prejudice. Many Christians only know the stereotypes they learned in childhood. They buy into the idea that all gay men are predators and that loving relationships between inherently homosexual people do not exist. So they read the story of Sodom and see a stereotype of what they think all gay people are like. They then assume the story must be a sweeping condemnation of homosexuality, because they assume all homosexuality takes the form shown in this story. In truth, this story is at most a condemnation of homosexual rape. And, as other Scriptures affirm, it is more generally a condemnation of the mistreatment of those who are most vulnerable, including strangers. It is ironic that the story of Sodom is now used by Christians to justify hatred toward another vulnerable group — gay people.

This story clearly does not apply to the question we bring to Scripture, namely, whether two persons of the same sex can live in a loving, committed relationship with the blessing of God. So we can take this clobber passage and set it aside.

Going after strange flesh (Jude 7)

The second of the clobber passages is another reference to Sodom and Gomorrah. In the King James Version of the Bible it reads:

Note 7. When quoting the clobber passages, we have chosen to use the King James Version, because this is the translation most often quoted by Christians who use these passages against gay, lesbian, and bisexual people.
“Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

When we read this verse in modern America, having been raised in a culture that despises gays and refers to them as “queer,” it is easy to assume Jude’s reference to “going after strange flesh” must mean homosexuality. For many heterosexual people, it seems unnatural or strange for a person to desire intimacy with someone of the same sex. However, well-informed theologians will tell you this is not what Jude was talking about.

At the time the book of Jude was written, many believed some of the women of Sodom had engaged in intercourse with male angels. This belief was probably derived from Genesis 6:1, 2 and 4, where we are told the “Sons of God”(angels) took the daughters of humans as wives. This was the final act which brought God’s judgment on the earth in the form of a great flood. And it seems some Jewish writers believed this was also the sin which sealed Sodom’s fate.

According to first century legend, some of the women of Sodom (and other wicked ancient cities) were thought to have had sex with beings who were made of different flesh — angelic flesh. This is what Jude was referring to when he talked about “going after strange flesh.” He was referring to heterosexual sex between male angels and human women, not homosexual sex between humans. Many theologians, including many conservatives, interpret the passage this way.

Again we ask, does this passage apply to the question we bring to Scripture? And we must answer that it has nothing to say about whether it is possible for two humans of the same sex to have an intimate, loving relationship with the blessing of God
 

shemaiah

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2011
2,233
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#6
Its not over, you can still live a free life with Christ and He can work on you if you let Him. Start spending time with God, read His word more, pray more, and praise Him more. Develop a relationship with Him, fast if you have to and He will change you. God bless
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#7
Yes and I will seek him daily, read scripture and look for the small still voice and let him guide my path. But I need to understand scripture better than I had in the past, so please help me explain now this following sermon excerpt:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:10)

The words sometimes translated "effeminate" and “homosexual” in these passages are obscure and difficult to translate. The first word identifies someone who is morally weak, and has nothing to do with nellie gay men. The second word probably means “people who use power to obtain sex,” though the word is so rare that a confident translation is impossible. Neither word refers specifically to gay men or lesbians.
Listen to a sermon on this topic:

:Another passage of Scripture sometimes used against gay people is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, which reads as follows in the King James Version:

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

Note 1. William Arndt, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1979), page 489.
In this passage there are two key phrases relevant to our discussion. First there is the reference to “effeminate” persons, which is often viewed as a reference to nelly gay men. In truth, however, the Greek word translated “effeminate” in verse 9 is quite broad. The word is malakoi, and it literally means “soft.” (See note 1.) So Paul is saying “soft people” will not inherit the kingdom of God. Since we know Paul was not talking about the Pillsbury Dough Boy, we have to ask what he meant.

Note 2. Dale B. Martin, Arsenokoitês and Malakos: Meaning and Consequences (Source: Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality: Listening to Scripture edited by Robert L. Brawley; Westminster John Knox Press, Louisville Kentucky, 1996), page 124. Nissinen also offers “frailty of body or character, illness, sentimentality, or moral weakness” as other possibilities for the meaning of this word in other contexts (page 117).
This common Greek word had different connotations depending on the context in which it was used. In terms of morality, it generally referred to something like laziness, degeneracy, decadence, or lack of courage. (See note 2.) The connotation was of being “soft like a woman” or like the delicate expensive fabrics worn by rich men. In the patriarchal culture of the time, women were thought to be weaker than men, more fearful, more vulnerable, and more vain. Thus, men who ate too much, liked expensive things, were lazy, or liked to dress well were considered “soft like a woman.” Although this type of misogynistic thinking is intolerable in our modern society, it was common in ancient times and explains why the King James Version translated malakoi as “effeminate.”

But it is important to understand the difference between ancient and modern notions of what makes one effeminate. Paul wasn’t condemning men who swish and carry purses; he was condemning a type of moral weakness. The ancient Roman and Greek understanding of what it meant to be manly or womanly was quite different from today. First-century Romans didn’t think of effeminacy as merely a homosexual trait. In that culture, any man who was more interested in pleasure than in duty was considered to be woman-like. And men who worked to make themselves more attractive, “whether they were trying to attract men or women, were called effeminate.” (See note 3.) They saw all pleasure-seeking men as effeminate, whomever they sought pleasure with. In first-century Roman terms, most pro-wrestlers in the WWF (manly men by our definitions) would be considered effeminate, because of their apparent interest in fancy, hyper-masculine costumes and posturing. From this perspective, Paul was condemning men who are vain, fearful, and self-indulgent.

In recent years, however, some have suggested that, in the context in which it appears in 1 Corinthians 6, malakoi may refer specifically to male prostitutes, who would have served as the receptive partner (i.e., soft, “woman-like”) in sexual intercourse. This translation is reflected in two of the most widely used modern English translations of the Bible, the New International Version and the New Revised Standard Version. Since malakoi was used to refer to men who exhibited the negative traits associated with women in first-century culture, it’s not hard to see how the term might also be used to refer to male prostitutes. They would be viewed as sexually indulgent (a trait associated with women) and as the ones who played a receptive role in intercourse (again, associated with women). Because here Paul uses malakoi in a list of sexual sins, it is possible to infer that he may have been referring specifically to male prostitutes, rather than soft men in general.

However, regardless of whether Paul intended to refer specifically to male prostitutes or more generally to all men considered morally soft, it is apparent that the term malakoi has nothing to do with the question we bring to Scripture. We are not defending prostitution, nor vanity or self-indulgence. Our question is whether same-sex couples may live in loving, committed relationships with the blessing of God. The term malakoi does not address that.

Note 4. Some have suggested an earlier use of the word in a piece of literature called the Sibylline Oracles, a collection of oracles written by many people over a number of centuries. However, the dating of the particular oracle in which this word appears is uncertain. For more on this topic see Dale B. Martin’s article, page 120.
The next key phrase in this passage is rendered in the King James Version as “abusers of themselves with mankind.” A similar phrase appears in a list of sins in I Timothy 1:10. Both phrases are derived from a single Greek word, arsenokoitai, which is quite rare. In fact, these two biblical references may be the first examples we have of this word being used in the literature of the time. (See note 4.) Because the word is so rare, its exact meaning is probably lost forever. However, some scholars have worked hard to make an educated guess.

Note 5. Martti Nissinen, Homoeroticism in the Biblical World (Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1998), page 114. John Boswell, on page 342 of Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, states that the second half of this word, “is a coarse word, generally denoting base or licentious activities (see Romans 13:13), and in this and other compounds refers to the vulgar English word “f***er”.
One translation technique is to look at the root words alone. Arsenokoitai is a combination of two existing words, one meaning “bed” and referring to sex, and another meaning “male.” (See note 5.) Thus, some scholars surmise the term has something to do with male sexual expression — perhaps exclusive male sexual expression, since no woman is mentioned.

Note 6. This example, coined by John Boswell in the 1980s, is still a good illustration of the troubles inherent in translations based on simple root-word analysis.
Unfortunately, this method of translation often leads people astray. For example, imagine a future translator coming across the word “lady-killer” two thousand years from now and wanting to know what it means. It’s clear the phrase is made from two words, lady and killer. So, it must mean a woman who kills, right? Or is it a person who kills ladies? The difficulty in obtaining a good translation is clear — particularly when we know lady-killer was a term used in the 1970s to refer to men whom women supposedly found irresistible. (See note 6.)

Note 7. Nissinen, page 115.
A better way to understand what Paul may have meant by arsenokoitai is to look for other instances of the word in the subsequent writings of his time. This approach yields several telling facts. First, two early church writers who dealt with the subject of homosexual behavior extensively, Clement of Alexandria and John Chrysostom, never used the word in their discussions of same-sex behavior. The word shows up in their writing, but only in places where they appear to be quoting the list of sins found in 1 Corinthians 6, not in places where they discuss homosexuality. This suggests they did not believe Paul’s term referred to homosexual behavior. (See note 7.)

Note 8. Martin, pages 120-123. See also John Boswell’s Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, pages 345-348.
A similar pattern is found in other writings of the time. There are hundreds of Greek writings from this period that refer to homosexual activity using terms other than arsenokoitai. (See note 8.) If Paul had intended to refer generally to homosexual sex, or to one of the partners in gay-male sex, he had other commonly-used, well-known words at his disposal. He wouldn’t have had to resort to this ambiguous compound word, which future generations would find difficult to translate. Apparently Paul was trying to refer to some more obscure type of behavior.


Note 11. Hippolytus Scr. Eccl. (Refutation of All Heresies), 060, 5.26.23.4.
This conclusion is reinforced by a survey of the actual uses of arsenokoitai in Greek literature. Scholars have identified only 73 times this term is used in the six centuries after Paul. (See note 9.) (There are no known instances before Paul.) In virtually every instance the term appears in a list of sins (like Paul’s) without any story line or other context to shed light on its meaning. There are, however, a few helpful exceptions. In one instance, a Greek author uses the term when cataloguing the sins of the Greek gods. (See note 10.) In this context, the term is probably intended to refer to the time Zeus abducted and raped a young boy, Ganymede. Arsenokoitai is also used in an ancient legend in which the snake in the Garden of Eden is said to have become a Satanic figure named Naas. Naas uses a variety of means (including sleeping with both Adam and Eve) to gain power over and destroy them. In this story, Naas is said to have gone to Adam and had him like a boy. Naas’ sin is called arsenokoitai. (See note 11.) These examples suggest that arsenokoitai refers to instances when one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another.


Note 13. See Martin’s section titled Arsenokoitês, pages 118-123, for a thorough discussion of contextual clues to the meaning of this word.
This premise is reinforced by yet another translation technique. As noted above, most of the times when arsenokoitai is used in early Greek literature, it occurs in a list of sins (just like in 1 Corinthians 6). (See note 12.) Common experience tells us list-makers tend to group similar items together. (When Tyler makes a grocery list, he puts the vegetables at the top, the dairy at the bottom, and everything else in-between.) In these lists, arsenokoitai is often placed at the end of the list of sex sins and the beginning of the list of economic sins or vice versa. (See note 13.) For example, in 1 Corinthians 6, we find it between malakoi (which may refer to male prostitutes) and “thieves.” In I Timothy 1:10, the word appears between “fornication” and “slave traders.” This is consistent with the meaning suggested above — that arsenokoitai describes a male who aggressively takes sexual advantage of another male. Examples of this type of behavior would include a man who rapes another (as in the Sodom story or the story of Zeus and Ganymede) or a man who uses economic power to buy sex from a male prostitute who sells his body to survive. This latter example is an especially neat fit if malakoi is understood to be a reference to the prostitute, in which case Paul’s list would include a reference both to the male prostitute (malakoi) and the man who takes advantage of the prostitute (arsenokoitai). This type of person is a close kin to the thief and the greedy — the two Greek words that most often follow arsenokoitai in the lists of sins.

A thief, a greedy person, and one who uses power to obtain sex are all seizing something that does not rightfully belong to them.

Thus, we conclude that aresenokoitai is best understood as a reference to men who force themselves sexually on others. This conclusion is consistent with the New Revised Standard Version, the English translation of the Bible often regarded as most scholarly. The New Revised Standard Version translates arsenokoitai as “sodomite.” As we have already seen, the men of Sodom were the ultimate example of sexual aggression and oppression. Even the New International Version, a more conservative English translation, appears to have been uncomfortable translating aresenokotai as a general reference to homosexuality. Instead, in 1 Corinthians 6 they translate the term as “homosexual offender,” suggesting that to commit the sin referred to here one must use homosexuality in an aggressive or offensive way.

Note 14. Robin Scroggs makes this argument on pages 85 and 86 of The New Testament and Homosexuality (Fortress Press, Philadelphia, 1983). David Greenberg makes a similar argument on page 214 of The Construction of Homosexuality. Although Scroggs, Greenberg, and Nissinen believe the term may refer to some type of homosexual behavior, they do not agree on the type of behavior. For example, Scroggs suggests this may be a reference to male prostitution. Moreover, Nissinen makes the point, on page 117, that our translation of obscure words is always informed by our ideological preconceptions.
Finally, there is one more approach for finding the meaning of an obscure word relevant to the present discussion. Etymology is an attempt to trace the origins of a word — not just its component parts or uses after it was created, but where the word originally came from. For a word as old as arsenokoitai, doing etymological research is often quite speculative, but some scholars have pointed out that the two Greek words scrunched together to form this new word appear next to each other (as separate words) in Leviticus 20:13 in the Septuagint. (The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament that Paul would have read.) From this, they gather that the word was created by people familiar with this passage, and that Paul was probably referring to the same behavior prohibited by Leviticus 20:13. (See note 14.)

This brings us full circle. As we’ve already seen in our discussion of Old Testament law, Leviticus 20:13 was written in the context of cultic sexual practices, including temple prostitution. In Romans, we saw that Paul was addressing homosexual behavior that occurred in similar cultic situations, where people had abandoned the one true God to worship pagan idols. If Paul derived the term arsenokoitai from Leviticus 20:13 (and that’s a big if), it would follow that Leviticus 20 and Romans 1 would provide the best evidence of the type of homosexual behavior he was intending to prohibit, i.e., cultic sexual practices.

Given the existing state of the literary evidence, it is impossible to know whether Paul was intending to refer to Leviticus 20 or was using the term arsenokoitai more broadly to refer to a man who aggressively forces himself on another. For us, it is not necessary to resolve the question. It is sufficient to note that Paul’s terminology manifestly does not address the type of behavior we are asking about — two people of the same sex who love each other dearly and live in committed relationship.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
#8
I worry that you are spending too much time seeking justification for this demon to remain in you.

Please seek Yahshua the Messiah and ask him to cast the demon out from you.

Fall on the rock that saves you.

You are delaying this by not accepting your feelings and actions are wrong.

We must admit we are wrong and need help.

I hope you consider what I say to you, i ask for nothing but you to consider stopping the search to justify your "demon".

The people of this world will give you the "okay" to live out the temptations you give into, but it is not the people of this world you need.

Give in and fall on the rock that will Save you.

Fight the fall and the rock will fall on you.

Love and peace always in the name of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.
 
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loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
#9
Let it be known that I too had "demons" of a different kind, I would battle with depression, and I say to you that it nearly had me take my own life...

So, please do not consider me talking to you as someone who looks down on you, but I look at you as someone who is in the same position i was before I fell on the rock that saved me.


And yes, I would try to stop the fall only to fall deeper into the darkness, it is not us but the power of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah that saves us.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#10
well first let me say that as a Christian, I am seeking guidance here to understand the scriptures, I am not that wise, you may have had things revealed to you by the Holy Spirit that I have not seen yet, so I am asking you then to please address the sermons on the scriptures I just quoted.

Also, I know that demons can oppress a person and whisper and send thoughts, but in fact do not own my soul, that belongs to Jesus Christ and God and the Holy Spirit.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
#11
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

What does this verse mean to you? Forget all the articles you have read, what do you see when you read this verse?


I see no concession for a loving relationship between two men....

I see it is abominable for men to come together as man and woman come together.

The Bible tells us that man and woman come together in a relationship before Yahvah God.

Life continues to grow through man and woman from the beginning until the end...
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#12
Alright , my friend in Christ Jesus, let me show you another sermon that addresses this scripture you quoted.



Israel's Holiness Code. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13)

The chapters that contain these verses are clearly identified as speaking against practices involved in cultic idol worship. The entire passages are generally accepted as not applying to modern Christian life.

These two verses in Leviticus read as follows in the King James Version:

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)

“If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Before delving into these two verses, it would be helpful to read How Language is Interpreted, which is part of the discussion of Romans 1 I will post that later

If we wish to understand the true meaning of these verses, we must look at their context, both textual and historical. Until we understand what prompted these rules in Old Testament times, we will not be able to determine if the rules should be applied to the case of two people in committed, loving relationship.

Note 1. Leviticus 18:2-3, 18:24, and 20:23.
The text itself gives us a big clue as to the intended meaning. Three different times we are specifically told that the rules set forth in chapters 18 and 20 are meant to prevent the Israelites from doing what the Egyptians and Canaanites did. The term Canaanites refers to the group of nations who lived in the land into which the Israelites migrated when they left Egypt. It follows, therefore, if we can determine what type of homosexual behavior was common among the Canaanites and Egyptians, we will better understand what these verses were meant to prohibit.

Note 2. Some recent scholarship has called this truism into question (e.g., see the article The end of the male cult prostitute: A literary-historical and sociological analysis of Hebrew qades-qadesim [Source: Congress Volume, pages 37-80, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1997] by Phyllis A. Bird, published in the Vetus Testamentum, 66). But even if these practices were not as prevalent as scholars once thought, the biblical text indicates the biblical authors believed they were, and their writings are based on that factual premise. See also, Homoeroticism in the Biblical World by Martti Nissinen, pages 41-42, for a discussion of this.
Biblical historians tell us the Canaanite religions surrounding the Israelites at the time of Leviticus often included fertility rites consisting of sexual rituals. These rituals were thought to bring the blessing of the god or goddess on crop and livestock production. During the rituals, whole families, including husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, cousins, aunts and uncles would sometimes have sex. Also included was sex with temple prostitutes. In short, every kind of sexual practice imaginable was performed at these rituals, including homosexual sex.

Note 3. For a lengthy discussion of the worship of Asstarte/Ishtar, see The Construction of Homosexuality (University of Chicago Press, 1988), David F. Greenberg, pages 95-97.
Consider one specific example. Historians tell us that many Canaanites and Egyptians worshipped a goddess of love and fertility called Astarte or Ishtar. Within her temples were special priests called assinu, who were deemed to have special powers. Physical contact with the assinu was believed to ward off evil and promote good luck. These priests were, in effect, living good luck charms, and worshipers would often ritually touch them as part of their worship practices. Sexual intercourse was considered especially effective for gaining the goddess’s favor, because the male worshiper was offering his greatest possession, semen (which was thought to be the essence of life), to the goddess through her priests. Depositing semen in the body of a priest of the goddess was believed to guarantee one’s immortality. Similar cultic sexual practices flourished in connection with many other ancient pagan deities.

This is what was going on in Canaan and Egypt at the time the Levitical rules were announced — homosexual temple prostitution. And as already noted, Leviticus 18 and 20 specifically say they were written to address pagan religious practices. Leviticus 18 begins with the admonition, “You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you.” (18:3) Chapter 20 is even more specific, beginning with an injunction against the pagan practices associated with a god named Molech. And both chapters include long lists of sexual practices common in the cultic rituals we mentioned above. However, neither of them speaks to the question of whether two people of the same sex can live in loving relationship with the blessing of God.

Note 4. Greenberg, page 92.
In fact, historians tell us our model of loving, long-term homosexual relationships did not meaningfully exist in Canaanite culture. This was a tribal culture in which it would have been virtually impossible to form such relationships. Offspring were essential to survival in this primitive agricultural economy. Moreover, there were rigid distinctions between women’s work and men’s work. If two men had lived together as a couple, for example, one of them would have been placed in the position of doing women’s work, and the presence of a man working among the women of the village would not have been tolerated. (See note 4.)

It simply is not reasonable to believe the author of Leviticus intended to prohibit a form of homosexual relationship that did not exist at the time. When read in textual and historical context, the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 and 20 are clearly directed at homosexual temple prostitution, and that is how they should be applied.

Some people may object, saying, “But if you ignore the context and just read the words of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 in black and white, they appear to prohibit all sex between men, not just sex in pagan rituals.” But that is the whole point: The meaning of words depends on context. Remember, the words of 1 Corinthians 11 also appear to require long hair and head coverings for all women in all circumstances. But, because we have studied the context, we know that is not what was meant. A text taken out of context is pretext. Let’s apply the same common-sense rule here.

The Leviticus passages were clearly written in the context of pagan religious ritual. Since we are not bringing a question about the appropriateness of cultic sex practices for modern Christians, we can safely set aside these clobber passages.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#13
Also I just wanted to respond to your quote
loveme1: Life continues to grow through man and woman from the beginning until the end...
Very true indeed, but intersexed people are still born, and many many people have gender identity disorder, and about 10% of the population is homosexual. How can 10% of the population threaten the existence of the other 90% of humanity?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
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#14
This is what was going on in Canaan and Egypt at the time the Levitical rules were announced — homosexual temple prostitution. And as already noted, Leviticus 18 and 20 specifically say they were written to address pagan religious practices. Leviticus 18 begins with the admonition, “You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you.” (18:3) Chapter 20 is even more specific, beginning with an injunction against the pagan practices associated with a god named Molech. And both chapters include long lists of sexual practices common in the cultic rituals we mentioned above. However, neither of them speaks to the question of whether two people of the same sex can live in loving relationship with the blessing of God

Neither does it deal with the man that lies with his fathers wife, being okay if he loves and wants to have a loving relationship with her....

He may have strong feelings for his fathers wife and love her, but it is still Abominable to act on that temptation.

Committing Adultery with a person you may or may not "love" is not justified but condemned by the Bible.

So, if was to meet someone whom I had feelings for and act on those feelings, I put me first and not Yahvah God.


Loving Yahvah God with all your heart and soul is to not do what displeases him.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#15
there are a number of Leviticus Laws and the Holiness code that Christians do not follow because they were ceremonial laws or they were civil laws or they had to be moral laws.




Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19) *we do this today without guilt*

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19) *we do this today without guilt

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19) (we do this today without guilt*

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27) *we do this today without guilt*

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) *Have you ever done that?*

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). *I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?*

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18) * we don't do this to women today*

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27) *while a sin, we do not stone them to death*

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9) *this is insane to even think of doing today*

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18) *excuse me, really?*

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
*cursing God is a sin, but we do not stone anyone for it today*
Again it comes down to what sort of laws they were, Jesus came to fulfill the law. Bring to completion or reality.

Civil - Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government

Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ

Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy"

So how does a Christian pick and chose then? Why are so many Christians debating the topic of intersex,transgender and homosexuality? We use to use the bible to approve of slavery,treating women like lesser beings, calling interracial marriage a sin, denying equal rights and of course Hitler was in the wrong as well.

Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#16
Another sermon I need explained which pertains to me even more so is this one



( “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

In the ancient world, eunuchs were widely associated with homosexuality . Here a self-avowed eunuch is welcomed in to the early church without any concerns about his sexual orientation. He was welcomed on the same basis as other people – his faith in Jesus Christ.

Discussion: Acts 8:26-40

This story challenges the “grasshopper mentality,” a phrase that comes from an old joke about a grasshopper in a bar. (If you come from a conservative background like we do, to understand the joke, you need to know there’s a mixed drink called a “grasshopper.”)

A grasshopper steps up to a bar and says, “I’d like a drink, please.”
The bartender asks, “What’ll it be?”
“I don’t know. What do you suggest?”
“Well,” the bartender says, “you may not know it, but we have a drink named after you!”
At this, the grasshopper grins and says, “In that case, I’ll have a Stuart!”
You see, the bartender had been unable to see past the grasshopper’s “type” to think he might have a name, a family, and a life beyond his “grasshopperness.” And that is the way many Christians view gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. Once they find out someone is gay, it is as if that person has a neon sign on his or her forehead, flashing, “Gay! Gay! Gay!” But God sees people differently, looking past incidental labels and seeing into the core of each being. As the Apostle Peter says, “God shows no partiality.” (Acts 10:34) The grace of God is available to gay people on the same basis as all other humans. That is what the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch is all about.

The author of Acts sought to write a well-researched history of the acts of the apostles following the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension into heaven. In chapter eight of that book, we find Philip heading a great evangelistic campaign in Samaria. The story tells us that along with “proclaiming the Messiah,” (8:4) Philip was healing people and casting out demons. His efforts were going so well, and so many were coming to faith, “there was great joy in that city.” (8:8) However, in the midst of this great revival, the Holy Spirit told Philip to “get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (8:26) This road was in the wilderness.

This seems like a strange command: Leave the great revival among the Samaritans, and go out into the wilderness. But Philip did what God asked. Then the story gets even stranger. Out in the wilderness, Philip finds a lone Ethiopian eunuch traveling south from Jerusalem. The author tells us the man was sitting in his chariot, reading from Isaiah. Having just been to Jerusalem to worship, he was now headed home.

It is this nameless man who makes the story so important to gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians. So, let us look more closely at the identity of the Ethiopian eunuch. At the time of the writing of Acts, the term Ethiopian was used to describe people from Nubia, south of Egypt. So, we know from this description that he was probably a black African. But that still leaves us with the question, “What is a eunuch?”

Note 1. The Keeper of the Bed: The Story of the Eunuch (Arlington Books, London, 1973) by Charles Humana, page 21. Note: Our discussion in the next few pages is drawn from the work of several authors, including Rev. Nancy Wilson in Our Tribe, Michael S. Piazza in Holy Homosexuals: The Truth About Being Gay or Lesbian and Christian, Second Edition (Sources of Hope Publishing House, Dallas, Texas, 1995), David F. Greenberg in The Construction of Homosexuality, and Faris Malik in Born Eunuchs: Homosexual Identity in Ancient World.
The Greek word used in Acts is eunouchos, which means literally “guardian or keeper of the couch.” (See note 1.) The term refers to those who were placed in positions of highest trust in royal palaces and wealthy households. Eunuchs served and guarded the women in these households. Because of their intimate access to the royal courts, eunuchs often rose to senior government positions. In this story, the Ethiopian eunuch was Treasurer to the Queen of Ethiopia. (8:27)

Not just anyone was permitted to serve as a eunuch. Given their intimate access to the women of the household, they had to be men who could be trusted not to have affairs with (or force themselves upon) the women — because to do so would cloud the line of succession to the throne and confuse inheritance rights. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the ideal candidate for the position of eunuch would be someone known for his disinterest in women. Although the ancients did not have the same clear concept of heterosexual and homosexual that we do today, people were put together in the same way then as now. There were men then (as now) who had a reputation for being disinterested in women as objects of sexual attraction. They would make the ideal eunuch.

Note 2. Faris Malik, Introduction to Born Eunuchs.
Of course, it was not always possible to find someone like this. In those situations, or in situations where the master wanted to be extra cautious, eunuchs were often castrated, i.e., their testicles were removed so they would be incapable of fathering children. But it would be historically inaccurate to picture eunuchs as a bunch of straight men who were castrated. Ancient literature indicates that various types of eunuchs were recognized. There were “man-made eunuchs,” meaning those who had been castrated. But there are also references to so-called “natural” or “born” eunuchs. This category apparently included males who from childhood seemed incapable of or disinterested in intercourse with women.(See note 2.)

Note 3. Talmud Bavli, Tractate Yevumos (The Schottenstein Edition, Mesorah Publications Ltd., Brooklyn, NY, 1999), Chapter 8, 79b.
For example, in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud, which was written several hundred years after Christ but is based on an oral tradition that goes back much further, Rabbi Eliezer refers to “eunuchs by nature” and contrasts them with man-made eunuchs. He asserts that natural eunuchs can be “cured,” a statement that would make no sense if he were talking about men who had physical genital defects. (See note 3.)

Note 4. Talmud Bavli, Tractate Yevumos, Chapter 8, 80b.
In the same Talmud, other rabbis discuss how a natural eunuch can be identified. Signs of natural eunuchs are said to include lateness of pubic hair, urine that does not form an arch, absence of a beard, softness of hair, smoothness of skin, a high voice, and a body that does not steam when bathing in winter. (See note 4.) Are you starting to get the picture? The ancient stereotype of “natural” or “born” eunuchs sounds hauntingly like the modern stereotype of gay men as effeminate sissy-boys who need to be “cured” because something is wrong with them.


Note 7. Lucian, Volume III (William Heinemann, London, 1921), translated by A.M. Harmon, page 197.
And what was “wrong” with them? It is clear from the ancient literature that eunuchs as a class had a reputation for being attracted sexually to men, rather than women. For example, an ancient Summarian myth about the creation of eunuchs says they “do not satisfy the lap of women.” They were specifically created, the myth says, because they can resist the wiles of women. (See note 5.) The book of Sirach, found in the Old Testament of the Catholic Bible, says that embracing a girl makes a eunuch groan. (Sirach 30:20) The Roman playwright Juvenal (who lived near the time of Christ) stated, “When a soft eunuch takes to matrimony. . . it is hard not to write a satire.” (See note 6.) Lucian, a Greek satirist who lived about one hundred years after Christ, compares a eunuch with a concubine to a deaf man with a flute, a bald man with a comb, and a blind man with a mirror. (See note 7.) In other words, a eunuch has as much need for a woman as a fish has for a bicycle.


Note 9. Quintus Curtius, History of Alexander, Volume II (Harvard University Press, Cambridge, 1956), translated by John C. Rolfe, page 51.
Instead, eunuchs were commonly associated in ancient culture with sexual interest in men. For example, the Kama Sutra (an ancient Eastern sacred text) has an entire chapter on eunuchs seducing men. (See note 8.) Quintus Curtius, an historian who wrote about Alexander the Great, reports that Alexander’s palace included “herds of eunuchs, also accustomed to prostitute themselves [like women].” (See note 9.) Quintus Curtius also reports that Alexander the Great fell deeply in love with a eunuch named Bagoas and they entered into a relationship of mutual love.

These examples from ancient literature indicate that, in ancient culture, eunuchs were a suspect category. They were commonly regarded as being sexually interested in men, not women. This does not mean all were gay. But clearly, as a class, they were strongly associated with homosexual desire in the popular mind. To introduce one’s self as a eunuch in ancient times was roughly akin to introducing one’s self today as a hairdresser from San Francisco.

With this historical background, we can now return to the story in Acts 8 about the Ethiopian eunuch. The point we have been leading up to is this: When the Ethiopian introduced himself to Philip as a eunuch, Philip would have immediately known he was dealing with a man who was part of a class commonly associated with homosexual desire.

Acts 8:32-33 tells us the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah 53:7-8. This passage was seen by early Christians as a prophecy about Jesus. The whole chapter tells about the suffering of God’s anointed one. Verse 3 says, “He was despised and rejected by others.” Verse 7 says, “He was oppressed and he was afflicted.” It seems like a strange passage for someone to read just after worshipping in Jerusalem, the holy city. But it makes sense when we understand that the Ethiopian eunuch had probably found himself despised and rejected by the religious leaders in Jerusalem.

Note 10. Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David (Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1978), page 124. In Homoeroticism in the Biblical World, Martti Nissinen states that “any eunuch attempting to join the Christian community would have had to deliberately ignore the Torah (Old Testament Jewish Scriptures), which forbade it.” Robin Scroggs, in The New Testament and Homosexuality, details how Philo, a first century Jewish philosopher, not only upheld the ban on eunuchs, but associated eunuchs with Roman male homosexual prostitutes.

Just like gay, lesbian, and bisexual people of today, eunuchs were the sexual outcasts of Jewish religious society. Deuteronomy 23:1 states, “No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.” By the first century, this verse was understood as applying to anyone who was incapable of fathering children (either physically or by reason of what we today would call sexual orientation). The first-century teachers of Jewish law forbade converting such a person to Judaism, and they would have informed the Ethiopian eunuch when he arrived in Jerusalem that he could not even enter the outer court of the temple. Tom Horner tells us, “The eunuch was persona non grata both socially and religiously.” (See note 10.)

So, in Jerusalem, the Ethiopian eunuch would have been assured by the people of God that he could not become one of them. He would have been despised and rejected, cut off from God’s grace by the religious leaders.

Perhaps someone among his friends had furtively told him about Isaiah 56:3-5, which promises eunuchs who keep God’s commandments that someday they will receive a house, a monument, and a name within God’s walls. Perhaps, like gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians today, he had gone to his religious leaders pointing to the Scriptures which affirmed him, hoping he might somehow be accepted. But instead, he had been clobbered once again with Deuteronomy 23:1. A eunuch “may not enter the assembly of God’s people!” And so he had taken his precious scroll of Isaiah and begun his journey home, reading about another of God’s children who had been despised, rejected, and cut off.

It was at this point Philip, guided by the Holy Spirit, happened along and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” The Ethiopian eunuch, still seeking a religious authority figure, answered “How can I unless someone guides me?” (8:31) So, Philip started with this Scripture and “proclaimed to him the good news of Jesus.” (8:35) Then they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is some water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” Philip’s answer should be astonishing to anyone who still holds a prejudice against gay, lesbian, and bisexual believers.

Philip responded, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Philip did not say, “Let’s talk about Deuteronomy 23:1.” He also did not say, “I realize since you’re a eunuch that you may desire men; can you promise me you’ll never have a sexual relationship with a man?” Instead, operating under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” We have no way of knowing whether the Ethiopian eunuch was in fact gay. But we do know he was part of a class of people commonly associated with homosexuality and that this fact was completely irrelevant to whether he could become a Christian.

The implications of this story are profound for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. This story illustrates that what matters is how we relate to Jesus — a point made over and over again in the New Testament, but which many modern Christians refuse to apply consistently. Scripture is not what keeps them from accepting their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters; only prejudice does. For if there were some authentic scriptural basis for excluding the Ethiopian eunuch because of the real possibility he was homosexual, we can be sure that Philip, a man who followed God even when God led him into the wilderness, would have been quick to pursue it.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#17
Consider for a moment what is in Deuteronomy 27, Which comes after Leviticus in the Old Testament. No where here is it mentioned that men with men or women with women is a curse. Why would they leave that out here, if it was supposed to be a curse?(

Curses from Mount Ebal

11 That same day Moses also gave this charge to the people: 12 “When you cross the Jordan River, the tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin must stand on Mount Gerizim to proclaim a blessing over the people. 13 And the tribes of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali must stand on Mount Ebal to proclaim a curse.

14 “Then the Levites will shout to all the people of Israel:

15 ‘Cursed is anyone who carves or casts an idol and secretly sets it up. These idols, the work of craftsmen, are detestable to the Lord.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

16 ‘Cursed is anyone who dishonors father or mother.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

17 ‘Cursed is anyone who steals property from a neighbor by moving a boundary marker.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

18 ‘Cursed is anyone who leads a blind person astray on the road.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

19 ‘Cursed is anyone who denies justice to foreigners, orphans, or widows.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

20 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with one of his father’s wives, for he has violated his father.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

21 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with an animal.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

22 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his sister, whether she is the daughter of his father or his mother.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

23 ‘Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his mother-in-law.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

24 ‘Cursed is anyone who attacks a neighbor in secret.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

25 ‘Cursed is anyone who accepts payment to kill an innocent person.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’

26 ‘Cursed is anyone who does not affirm and obey the terms of these instructions.’

And all the people will reply, ‘Amen.’
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#18
I didn't have the time to read all of this. If the OP is truly here to seek help, then we can help. But if you're just here to justify this stuff, then we can't help.

It's really hard to tell your motives, so for now I'm assuming you want help.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#19
From here on out, don't give even a hint that you're trying to justify this stuff.
Some folks come here using the 'i need help' thing, as a guise to push an agenda.
 
S

Strickalator

Guest
#20
I don't have any agenda's I just want to serve the Lord , and be an effective minister of Christ. Like I was telling you my salvation is very important to me, I don't want to be deceived.

Thank you so much for putting it back up.