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@Bede @Magenta so, in the interest of promoting good understanding and looking at all the facts, and in the hopes that this will be received charitably by everyone reading, at the request of Nebuchadnezzer (post 2,059), I read this page https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm I...

okay, at your request I read the entire page. apparently, that's all of the documents put forward by the first Vatican council. what I saw was that when referring to one of the 12 apostles, the writers were careful to use the word apostle. when referring to one of the subsequent leaders of the...

I can see that, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

I totally hear what you're saying! May things go well with you, my sister in Christ!

yes, I hear what you're saying and you may well have the right of it. I agree that for irenaeus, "universally" meant the area he was familiar with. the church was founded at Rome? do you agree with that? most people say the church was founded at Pentecost in the upper room. the church is...

Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. well, again, it looks like we're just reading it differently. as I...

yes, I agree with what you're saying. also, and a lot of people might disagree with this, the events may not be in chronological order. this taking place before 13 :7, I think Zechariah 12:10 I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of...

that verse raises an interesting situation for me I think Amos prophesied long before Jeremiah. Jeremiah 31:31 See, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. I suppose that could refer to spiritual Israel, but...

I think the basis for overseers or supervisors (assuming that's what you mean by holy see) comes from here 1 Timothy 3:1 This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work. did those Roman emperors require the bishops attending the councils to reach a...

yes John 4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. yes yes, in ignorance. not loyal to Catholicism, loyal to the scriptures. so, let's use logic Matthew 15:9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules...

how about if I put it this way, I would happily share the table of the Lord with the Pope. but I am saddened that he won't share it with me.

well, tell me if in your view this logic works, or if a definition has been stretched or something: if a person with a trinitarian baptism is part of the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is synonymous with the church, and from the Catholic perspective the church is the Catholic Church...

to be honest, it looks very challenging to understand. does verse 8 happen at the same time as verse 7? is chapter 13 a continuation of chapter 12? and does chapter 14 continue on from there? I don't know.

well, for me, that approach would conflict with some other parts of the scriptures. but if you see no conflict, then sure, it's okay with me. Paul himself says that the situation is a mystery, so I doubt that we would reach a satisfying conclusion through discussion or debate.

not every single Jew, no. but Jews as a group, yes. yes, in the passage I posted earlier. no, Jesus never lied. but when we look at the passage from John 5, we see that it is about believing, it doesn't talk about worshipping.

well, we may be talking about two sides of the same coin. a person in imperfect communion with the Catholic church is still in communion with the Catholic Church. I asked a question on this subject on a Catholic forum years ago. some of the people were quoting something from the canon law, but...

so it sounds like we agree that this passage refers to physical Israel, not spiritual Israel Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the...

those would all be valid possibilities, as long as those involved in the conversation knew what was being referred to. I mentioned irenaeus saying that the church is "founded and organized at Rome". he could have said founded and organized at Italy, but he picked Rome. it sounds like an...

well, and I I mean this with a positive tone, given how many popes there have been, I doubt if anyone understands everything all of them have said. I'm not following the evidence or logic of why you say that. well, logically that would mean one Church. I think we all agree that the one church...

there's a lot of things in the passage, of course. but one thing in there is that the Jews that Jesus is talking to were worshipping God.