“LOVING GOD VERSUS OBEYING GOD'S LAW”

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
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New Zealand
#21
When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins). Those laws you can read in the scriptures in Leviticus 4th Chapter

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us. Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (20) by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) and having an high priest over the house of God; (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).
The ten commandments are the means of serving God in the New Testament church.

But the obedience to them is not conditioned on eternal life. It's a response to having been saved already.. not the means of salvation. It's a system of service, not the way of eternal deliverance.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,942
1,263
113
Australia
#22
The ten commandments are the means of serving God in the New Testament church.

But the obedience to them is not conditioned on eternal life. It's a response to having been saved already.. not the means of salvation. It's a system of service, not the way of eternal deliverance.
The eternal price is paid in full by Jesus so we can not add to it. We don't serve to be saved we serve because we are saved. Love is the motivator..
Does that mean that if you know what is in the law and choose to not serve you do not love God?
Love for Jesus = keeping the law.
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#23
The ten commandments are the means of serving God in the New Testament church.

But the obedience to them is not conditioned on eternal life. It's a response to having been saved already.. not the means of salvation. It's a system of service, not the way of eternal deliverance.

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
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#24
Your preaching Judaism.


I believe I'm preaching the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I called it the uncut word of God. The bible speaks of only one way to get eternal salvation. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:5,6).
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#25
The eternal price is paid in full by Jesus so we can not add to it. We don't serve to be saved we serve because we are saved. Love is the motivator..
Does that mean that if you know what is in the law and choose to not serve you do not love God?
Love for Jesus = keeping the law.

What are you saved from?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,951
867
113
#26
I believe I'm preaching the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I called it the uncut word of God. The bible speaks of only one way to get eternal salvation. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:5,6).
Exactly, your preaching Judaism.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#27
Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
He who endures to the end context is not about deliverance for eternal life. It's deliverance from trials and persecution in the end times.

Also the Matthew verse you got there is missing other context that gives it more meaning.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
268
116
43
70
#28
Jesus was obedient to the OT law because he walked after the Spirit as we're commanded to do under the New Covenant. The law was changed, which is proven by a change being made to a Melchizedek priesthood. The OT law was good and holy, but the law of the Spirit of life along with the New Covenant is better. ie... No longer is it an eye for an eye, but rather we're to turn our cheek to a slap 70 x 7. The law tells us not to kill, but the NC tells us that if one hates a brother, then that one is a murderer. Or to lust for another is to commit adultery in the heart. So, we can see that the law is good, but the NC is better. We're held to a higher standard in the NC, but then we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit whereas the OT faithful were not. We also have better promises than they did and we have Jesus where they only had the promise of a Messiah. The NC has no curse of death, but rather brings renewal by the Holy Spirit via the scriptures in those who are doers of the word of God.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,779
624
113
#29
In the days of Jesus, the religious leaders were constantly questioning Jesus in order to test Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment?

Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

(36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment.

(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments.



In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them.Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus also reinforced what was said in Deuteronomy verse (9) by adding that those that love Him will be loved by the Father. How does one love Jesus? by keeping His commandments and Moses said God will keep covenant and have mercy with those who keep His commandments. So therefore by following Jesus one shall receive love from Him as well as mercy from the Father.

Note in these scriptures it did not say those who profess their love for Jesus or those that claim that Jesus knows what in their heart. Jesus made a clear and direct statement if one has His commandments and keeps them they are the ones who love Him. The statement that Jesus made as well as the condition Moses gave in Deuteronomy verse (9) were based on behalf of an individuals actions not their feeling or emotions or conditions. To exhibit love towards Jesus one must engage in a specific action and that action is being obedience to the word of God. And one will see that they are to be obedient regardless of their feeling or the surrounding circumstances.

Hmm its odd how you left out the rest of what Jesus said before and after. You did make sure to use the word "commandments". My only guess is "it the 10 commandments is what Jesus was talking about". We do know and understand that before Jesus died He and all of Israel were still living by under the law right? You know we don't do this any more right? The NT they talked about this? Why leave all that out. You do believe from Acts on yes? You quote the OT so do you follow believe all those promises are yours? I notice the ones that talk about the LAW never talk about other things...very odd to me.

We do know that GOD wrote His laws/ways on our hearts yes? No one ever has to read the 10 commandments to know you don't do harm you don't lie you dont blah blah blab because its on our heart. The sinner knows this. Way to add more burdens its what they never wanted to do but thanks
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,942
1,263
113
Australia
#30
Is the curse of death still on the human race?

Do we need to have faith in the death of Jesus today to save us from the penalty of sin (death)?

Yes and yes.

We are freed from death and sin by faith in Jesus.

The death of Jesus on the cross proves that the law was not removed because if the law was removed or changed we would not need the blood of Jesus to pay the price for transgressing it.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,942
1,263
113
Australia
#31
What are you saved from?
Sin.
Sin = death

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Wages of sin = death
Sin is the transgression of the law.
Am i saved from death by removing the law or by removing the penalty of death.

Did Jesus remove the law or did Jesus pay the price for transgressing the law?

Rom 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#32
Sin.
Sin = death

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Wages of sin = death
Sin is the transgression of the law.
Am i saved from death by removing the law or by removing the penalty of death.

Did Jesus remove the law or did Jesus pay the price for transgressing the law?

Rom 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jesus remove the Sacrificial laws and the priesthood laws, not the royal (10 Commandments) or statues, and judgements. Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (20) by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) and having an high priest over the house of God; (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

So this is why I ask the question, because Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#33
Hmm its odd how you left out the rest of what Jesus said before and after. You did make sure to use the word "commandments". My only guess is "it the 10 commandments is what Jesus was talking about". We do know and understand that before Jesus died He and all of Israel were still living by under the law right? You know we don't do this any more right? The NT they talked about this? Why leave all that out. You do believe from Acts on yes? You quote the OT so do you follow believe all those promises are yours? I notice the ones that talk about the LAW never talk about other things...very odd to me.

We do know that GOD wrote His laws/ways on our hearts yes? No one ever has to read the 10 commandments to know you don't do harm you don't lie you dont blah blah blab because its on our heart. The sinner knows this. Way to add more burdens its what they never wanted to do but thanks

People fail to realize that if the laws (10 Commandments) was nail to the cross, their would be no church today, even on the first day of the week, which is not written in the law. But it is very strange that people say there is no law, Jesus did it all, and refuse to follow what’s written in the Bible. That the day to go to church is on the seventh day of the week, Saturday. Then they say or quote, that the laws are written in our hearts, if that’s the case for some people, then you would know in your heart what day the Sabbath is on. Also it’s very spiritual that it’s written in the law, remember the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week.

All have sinned (broken the law...Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). When Jesus (the true Lamb of God) was sacrificed, he removed our past sins. If we accept Jesus as our sin offering, we are required to repent and get baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS ("there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved..."(Acts 4: 12).

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#34
He who endures to the end context is not about deliverance for eternal life. It's deliverance from trials and persecution in the end times.

Also the Matthew verse you got there is missing other context that gives it more meaning.
That's not correct, that 's probably how you want to look at the verse. Because Paul says in (Rom. 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You had better continue in God’s goodness or you will be cut off. This is also the writing of thee Apostle Paul. You must continue to keep God’s laws if you expect to receive salvation. You have to endure to the end, the end of your life not the world, everyone is not going to make to the end of the world, but there will be some that will, because we now are living close to that time.
Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.