1 John 4:18

[JFSurvivor]

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." -1 John 4:18

So I am confused because it says, "...fear has to do with punishment..." Well talking to many Christians they tell me that they are afraid of punishment by God. I have to admit, I am too.

I also hear many Christians say that to fear God is a lot like fearing a parent. I used to fear my parents because I didn't want to get punished. Now, since I am older, I fear their disapproval and them being "disappointed in me." So that analogy never really made sense. Then people say, "Well God is the perfect parent." I don't know what a perfect parent looks like because my parents are imperfect.

Lastly there are many non-believers who make the case, why would a loving God hold the threat of hell over your head if you don't do as he says? That always confused me because in a way they are right. How can God still be loving and that verse, mentioned above, be true if there is a threat of hell hanging over us if we are not saved?

"This is good and pleases God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." -1 Timothy 2:3,4 I had heard it said that God's will isn't always done, so we have to pray for it. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done." -Matthew 6:10 But God is God so why not throw satan into the fiery lake right now and be done with it so everyone can see God for who he is? But would that take away our free will?

I'm confused.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Hi, JFSurvivor.

Somebody else started a thread on this same exact verse recently and here's a link to my response there:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/106958-what-does-mean-fear-god.html#post1872146

I hope that what I posted there helps to answer at least part of your questions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the lack of fear is eternal death caused by being disobedient (or more understandable, that our failure in self effort will no longer condemn us)

It is hard to understand trying to place our earthly parents in this equation. We are talking separation (the gospel) the only way a parent can be in the conversation is if our parents kick us out every time we disobey them, then tell us we can not get back into their family because of our sin (an eternal banishment) no matter how sorry we say we are or no matter what we do to try to make up for our disobedience. This is what the gospel says our plight against God is.

we can not use the punishment line, For only the child gets chastened, one who is not a child can do as he wishes, he will not get chastened by the parent.

as for the unbeliever argument about God hanging hell over our head. God is actually hanging eternal life over our head, He came to save the world. not judge it. God gave us everything we need to be saved, ANyone who dies the second death will have no excuse.

 

[Hizikyah]

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." -1 John 4:18

So I am confused because it says, "...fear has to do with punishment..." Well talking to many Christians they tell me that they are afraid of punishment by God. I have to admit, I am too.

I also hear many Christians say that to fear God is a lot like fearing a parent. I used to fear my parents because I didn't want to get punished. Now, since I am older, I fear their disapproval and them being "disappointed in me." So that analogy never really made sense. Then people say, "Well God is the perfect parent." I don't know what a perfect parent looks like because my parents are imperfect.

I dont think any of us are perfect in love, and the Messiah says;"fear Him who can kill body and soul" certianly Yahshua/Jesus understanding was beyond any other that has ever lived, the possibility of recieveing what Yah has to offer far exceeds any hard times we may go through in this time on earth, so be strengthened with the reward that lays before you;

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

I think it be better to be corrected by Him now and have joy later...

Lastly there are many non-believers who make the case, why would a loving God hold the threat of hell over your head if you don't do as he says? That always confused me because in a way they are right. How can God still be loving and that verse, mentioned above, be true if there is a threat of hell hanging over us if we are not saved?

The Messiah finished His work in His first coming, but as long as we live out end has not arrived, He tells us to "endure until the end" I think that is self explanatory. Think about it the Creator knows us before we were born He knows if we are going to be with Him in the Kingdom, however we do not know what tomorrow will bring, to me that shows we must patiently and soberly seek Him continually.

"This is good and pleases God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." -1 Timothy 2:3,4

I had heard it said that God's will isn't always done, so we have to pray for it. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done." -Matthew 6:10 But God is God so why not throw satan into the fiery lake right now and be done with it so everyone can see God for who he is? But would that take away our free will?

I'm confused.

Man has chosen his way... Man is given free will to fully show there is no life without the Creator, what we see in the world is a place that has forsaken the ways the Creator Instructs. In judgement none will be able to say their own way was sufficient, and the Creator is going to allow this to continue until man kind is nearly extinct, to illustrate this. It is sad to see what is happening, yet it must be so or it would not be free will, thing is we can seek Him we don't have to go the same way as the world.

What is to come is infinitely more beautiful than anything we humans have ever known....

 

[psychomom]

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." -1 John 4:18

So I am confused because it says, "...fear has to do with punishment..." Well talking to many Christians they tell me that they are afraid of punishment by God. I have to admit, I am too.

this is my take on that verse...
we are perfectly loved by God, as shown to us in Christ's work for us.
Jesus took ALL the punishment we justly deserve on the cross, and we need never fear God's wrath toward us.

God may discipline us, but as His beloved children--to correct and train us, not to punish us.
God is just, and won't punish sin twice.

just to add regarding the casting of satan into the lake of fire right now...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God waits patiently for His own to be gathered to Himself.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

But God is God so why not throw satan into the fiery lake right now and be done with it so everyone can see God for who he is? But would that take away our free will?

I'm confused.

Hi, again.

God has set times in which certain things will be fulfilled and such set times certainly apply towards both Satan and demons. For example, we read:

Matthew chapter 8

[28] And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
[29] And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
[30] And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
[31] So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
[32] And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
[33] And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.
[34] And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

The demons inside of this demoniac apparently knew that there was a set time for their judgment and they therefore inquired of Jesus if he was going to "torment them BEFORE the time".

Revelation chapter 12

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

When this YET FUTURE angelic battle takes place, thereby triggering what is commonly referred to as "the great tribulation", Satan will come down "having great wrath BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT HE HAS BUT A SHORT TIME". Again, God's times are set in relation to the judgment of Satan and demons (and man) and I believe that the Bible tells us exactly when these set times will be fulfilled. We can discuss the same a bit further, if you'd like to.

 

[Reformed_Baptist]

Lastly there are many non-believers who make the case, why would a loving God hold the threat of hell over your head if you don't do as he says? That always confused me because in a way they are right. How can God still be loving and that verse, mentioned above, be true if there is a threat of hell hanging over us if we are not saved?

There only right is you allow them to define what love us rather then God - John 3:16 is a pretty good definition of love from the bible.

Remember God. is not just love, he is also a God of justice - he cannot allow sin to go unpunished that would be to deny his holy and just nature! In the cross that love and justice meet and God others forgiveness to those who will believe because Jesus Christ is being punished for sin.

Now think of it like this - God has seen his son killed so that we can be forgiven - what would it say of his love for him if he then went on to forgive people who didn't trust in his son?

"This is good and pleases God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." -1 Timothy 2:3,4

I think you have to look at verse again. If God desires all men to be saved does that means he desires the son of perdition (Judas) to be saved? Clearly not according to John 17:12! Also, if God desires all people to be saved why do so many die having never heard the gospel? The word 'all' (GK: pas) has a wide semantic domain - it does not always means 'everyone everywhere' in fact it rarely means that - it is worth doing a study on 'all men' in the NT and you will see that most of the time it is being used in reference to a specific group and not to every person who has ever lived, for example how can Titus show humility to everyone who has ever lived in every age of the world - Titus 3:2?

In context, Paul is telling Timothy that he God desires all kinds of men to be saved - not all men - that would make God the biggest failure ever!

had heard it said that God's will isn't always done, so we have to pray for it.

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done." -Matthew 6:10

What you have heard is contrary to the teaching of God words - take for example Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

But God is God so why not throw satan into the fiery lake right now and be done with it so everyone can see God for who he is?

Paul explains that in Romans 9

But would that take away our free will?

What do you mean by free will? I don't believe anyone has such a thing - our wills are always constrained by external limits - for example I could not choose to wear any socks I liked this morning, no, my choice was limited by what was in my drawer!

Why is it that a concept that we accept and take for granted in our every day life is suddenly rejected when it comes to salvation? Suddenly it becomes 'I have to be able to chose freely?' That is, I am afraid, nothing but a man elevating notion that gives us far more credit then we deserve! Salvation is God's work, not ours, even the faith that we exercise is his gift to us Eph 3:8-9

I don't know if any of that is helpful or not! But I would urge you to turn to God's word, he is not the author of confusion and so getting to grips with the bible should solve your confusion

 

[psychomom]

hey, guys?

the OP has been through a LOT. and she's a baby in the Lord.
she's learning and growing, and it's lovely to see.

i just hoped that might make a difference in the replies.

 

[Kaycie]

You should fear to disobey God, but if you obey God you have His love and there's nothing to fear.

 

[jsr1221]

You should fear to disobey God, but if you obey God you have His love and there's nothing to fear.

Is there a point of no return if you've disobeyed God? Kind of like an addict who after numerous times of trying to get sober, the one millionth time is the time he succeeds? (Exaggeration on the million times but I hope what I asked makes sense).

 

[JFSurvivor]

Is there a point of no return if you've disobeyed God? Kind of like an addict who after numerous times of trying to get sober, the one millionth time is the time he succeeds? (Exaggeration on the million times but I hope what I asked makes sense).

I dunno if this helps but look up 1 John 3:20.​

 

[Hizikyah]

I dunno if this helps but look up 1 John 3:20.​

1 John 3:20, "in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

I would add this to that great verse:

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I dunno if this helps but look up 1 John 3:20.​

I John chapter 3

[18] My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
[20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
[21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I'm not sure how you're understanding that verse presently, but I do know that I've heard numerous people, even preachers, take that verse totally out of context over the years and attribute to it the exact opposite meaning of that which the Apostle John intended. IOW, whereas CONTEXTUALLY John was saying that if our own hearts condemn us, then how much more does God the same in that He is greater than our hearts, but this verse is regularly twisted to say, "Hey, don't worry if your own heart condemns you...God is greater than your heart and He doesn't condemn you". That is not what John was saying here.

 

[JFSurvivor]

1 John 3:20, "in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

I would add this to that great verse:

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

So essentially: even though we sin, God is greater than our sin and even though we know we are rotten to the core Jesus has covered that.

Did I get that right?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

So essentially: even though we sin, God is greater than our sin and even though we know we are rotten to the core Jesus has covered that.

Did I get that right?

If we're "rotten to the core", then what did the "new birth" accomplish?

 

[JFSurvivor]

I John chapter 3

[18] My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
[20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
[21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I'm not sure how you're understanding that verse presently, but I do know that I've heard numerous people, even preachers, take that verse totally out of context over the years and attribute to it the exact opposite meaning of that which the Apostle John intended. IOW, whereas CONTEXTUALLY John was saying that if our own hearts condemn us, then how much more does God the same in that He is greater than our hearts, but this verse is regularly twisted to say, "Hey, don't worry if your own heart condemns you...God is greater than your heart and He doesn't condemn you". That is not what John was saying here.

But isn't the whole point of Jesus coming that we won't be condemned? I understand being convicted but not condemned.

 

[Hizikyah]

So essentially: even though we sin, God is greater than our sin and even though we know we are rotten to the core Jesus has covered that.

Did I get that right?

I believe so, because His mercy is greater than anything we can do, as long as we seek Him, confess to Him, and are guided by Him! but yes I agree I just wanted to add

...witouht His mercy I would be doomed 10000000+ times over, His mercy humbles me, makes me feel so little yet loved by Him.... (just thinking out loud)

Psalm 100:1-5, "Make a joyful shout to Yahweh, all you lands. Serve Yahweh with gladness! Come before His presence with singing! Know that Yahweh is our Father! It is He Who made us, and not we ourselves. We are His people, and the sheep of His pasture. Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His Name! For Yahweh is righteous, His mercy is everlasting, and His truth endures throughout all generations!"

 

[JFSurvivor]

If we're "rotten to the core", then what did the "new birth" accomplish?

The new birth made us clean despite our rotten-ness. Like we are rotten to the core because we are ALL sinners but Jesus covered that so that when God looks at us he doesn't see our flaws and failures. That doesn't mean I think once saved we can keep sinning. I think God knows when we are really putting our best foot forward and when we are slacking off because he KNOWS US so it all looks different for everyone because everyone is at different points in their walks of faith.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

But isn't the whole point of Jesus coming that we won't be condemned? I understand being convicted but not condemned.

That's where repentance and forgiveness comes in. IOW, if/when our hearts condemn us because we know that we've done something wrong, God is even more aware of the same because He's greater than our hearts. At such times, we need to repent and find cleansing of our sins via the blood of Christ and having been cleansed we can then pray to God with confidence or assurance.

 

[JFSurvivor]

That's where repentance and forgiveness comes in. IOW, if/when our hearts condemn us because we know that we've done something wrong, God is even more aware of the same because He's greater than our hearts. At such times, we need to repent and find cleansing of our sins via the blood of Christ and having been cleansed we can then pray to God with confidence or assurance.

I think we are saying the same thing but different words.