1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[GRACE_ambassador]

Only One Gospel - the SAME Gospel for the Jew and also for the Gentile - One SAME Gospel Salvation.

THIS is part of the problem of Confusion of Contradictions! And
"God is NOT the author of confusion!" (1 Corinthians 14:33)

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels + More Scriptural Evidence!
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

 

[Jackson123]

I'm pointing out that this is what the text states in Matthew 24:31 -

"...from the four winds, from [the] ends [plural] of the heavens [plural] to the ends [plural] of them [plural]."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-31.htm




And I stated that "heavens [plural]" is what is also used in the other verses I listed (for comparison with Matt24:31):

--Jeremiah 49:36
--Daniel 8:8
--Daniel 11:14
--Zechariah 2:6


[note: it does not always refer to "UP THERE"... check out the passages I just listed ^ ; note ALSO that Matt24:31 is not saying this is its "destination location" being referenced there]




____________

Then there are also the verses saying the following (and which distinguishes between them, in these verses):

--"heavens [plural] and the heavens of heavens [plural / plural]" 2Chron6:18 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_chronicles/6-18.htm

--"heavens [plural] and the heavens of heavens [plural / plural]" 1King8:27 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_kings/8-27.htm



Hope that helps.

My question is do you believe more than one heaven?

 

[DavidTree]

THIS is part of the problem of Confusion of Contradictions! And
"God is NOT the author of confusion!" (1 Corinthians 14:33)

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels + More Scriptural Evidence!
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Not sure where you are at here - please clarify - do you believe in two Gospels???

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Not sure where you are at here - please clarify - do you believe in two Gospels???

Yes, all The Scriptural Evidence Is in the three "links" - I guess they are UNclickable?
So, let's try:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels!
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-approval-two-different-gospels.197854/post-4506994

+ More Scriptural Evidence For TWO Gospels!
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-approval-two-different-gospels.197854/post-4646666

Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
https://christianchat.com/threads/b...ween-prophecy-and-mystery.197650/post-4498578

Hope that helps...

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, all The Scriptural Evidence Is in the three "links" - I guess they are UNclickable?
So, let's try:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels!
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-approval-two-different-gospels.197854/post-4506994

+ More Scriptural Evidence For TWO Gospels!
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-approval-two-different-gospels.197854/post-4646666

Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
https://christianchat.com/threads/b...ween-prophecy-and-mystery.197650/post-4498578

Hope that helps...

Yes, that works - thank you - i will check it out.

 

[DavidTree]

THIS is part of the problem of Confusion of Contradictions! And
"God is NOT the author of confusion!" (1 Corinthians 14:33)

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels + More Scriptural Evidence!
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

God is not the author of confusion - anyone who states two Gospels is.

Jesus says, now today, to the Jews first and also to the Gentiles there is One Gospel:
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

One Gospel for the Jew and the Gentile:
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

All Jews who reject their Messiah / Jesus will be condemned by the Law for rejecting the Prophet and Savior Jesus Christ.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luke 13: 34-35

Preaching two gospels will bring a curse on you

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:9

 

[Nehemiah6]

My question is do you believe more than one heaven?

The Bible says there are three heavens, and that the third heaven is God's Heaven.

 

[DavidTree]

Seven Steps to Peace in Christ and Freedom from error.

#1 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

#2 By the word of the Lord = we declare to you (Body of Christ) that

#3 we who are alive and remain (Body of Christ) = until the coming of the Lord

#4 will by no means precede (go before) = /Who?/ = those who have fallen asleep = the Dead in Christ.

#5 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,

#6 and the dead in Christ will be the FIRST to rise.

#7 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

Peace and love to my Brother and Sisters in Christ who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD and Do Not tell a Lie.

 

[Ahwatukee]

“As I pointed out, the 5th bowl judgment/wrath is poured out on the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness,…”
Notice in Acts 2, that God’s Holy Spirit was also “poured out” upon all mankind…constituting the Baptism of the Spirit in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. Find one other place where Jesus baptizes with His Spirit and cite that reference.

Your question is not relevant to the issue, as it has to do with 1 Thess.4:16-18 not being the same event as Matt.24:29-31.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living immortal and glorified and caught up.

Matthew 24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and to establish His millennial kingdom.

 

[DavidTree]

Your question is not relevant to the issue, as it has to do with 1 Thess.4:16-18 not being the same event as Matt.24:29-31.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living immortal and glorified and caught up.

Matthew 24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and to establish His millennial kingdom.

Seven Steps to Peace in Christ and Freedom from error.

#1 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

#2 By the word of the Lord = we declare to you (Body of Christ) that

#3 we who are alive and remain (Body of Christ) = until the coming of the Lord

#4 will by no means precede (go before) = /Who?/ = those who have fallen asleep = the Dead in Christ.

#5 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,

#6 and the dead in Christ will be the FIRST to rise.

#7 After that = we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

By the Word of the LORD = There is only One Second Coming and One FIRST Resurrection and One Rapture AFTER the FIRST Resurrection

Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

Peace and love to my Brother and Sisters in Christ who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD and Do Not tell a Lie.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 13 talking about great tribulation let see what happen there

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It seem the antichrist or the devil that persecute saint, not God so GT is also talking about wrath of the Devil to saint/ Christian, mean not raptured yet

Good day, Jackson!

First, let us list the correct wording of the scripture:

"If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go;

if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.”

Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

========================================================

The KJV has it "if anyone leads into captivity" which interrupts the idea of the context, which is about what the saints of that time are going to be facing. The above is correct in that it demonstrates that any saint who is destined by God to be taken into captivity, then that is what his/her fate will be. Likewise, if any saint is destined by God to be killed with a weapon, then being killed with a weapon is what their fate is. To be clear, the saints themselves are not going to be taking the wicked into captivity nor are they going to be killing looking to kill them. They are the one's who are going to be hunted and on the run.

It seem the antichrist or the devil that persecute saint, not God so GT is also talking about wrath of the Devil to saint/ Christian, mean not raptured yet

The persecution of the saints by the antichrist/beast is a part of God's wrath. In addition, while the beasts kingdom is going on, God's seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place throughout the entire time period. Therefore, anything that is done by the antichrist/beast during that time, is during God's time of wrath and is in fact a part of the. The mark of the beast is a part of God's wrath and testing.

Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the seven years as the result of the 7th trumpet, which is God's wrath. He is angry because once that happens, he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns and he is cast into the Abyss. So, that entire time period is the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, with Satan getting angry because he knows that his time is short.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are not multiple comings in the clouds with power and glory, angels with trumpets and gatherings of the elect.

they are the same event.

Good day, Evmur,

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: This is the event of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, dead and living, where we are caught up to meet Him in the air, where according to John 14:1-3, He takes us back to the Father's house. This takes place prior to the God's wrath.

Matthew 24:29-31: This event takes place after God's wrath when the Lord, with the church, returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 14:13-18 is the Lord descending to the atmosphere to gather His church and return to the Father's house. And Matthew 24:29-31 is the Lord's physical and visible return to the earth to end the age.

When you make these two events as being the same, then you are trampling on other scriptures which states that believers with in the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which is what would be happening if you have both events taking place after God's wrath. To be clear, Thess. and Matt. are not about the same event.

In addition, Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church. Angels do not gather the dead and the living at the time of the Lord's appearing. They are raise in power, immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the angels will be going throughout the earth gathering LIVING saints, i.e. those saints who will have made it through the entire wrath of God. These will be those great tribulation saints who will have survived the entire time of wrath and will be those, along with the remnant of Israel, who will enter inter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth.

 

[Jackson123]

[QUOTE="Nehemiah6, post: 4648101, member: 258921"
]The Bible says there are three heavens, and that the third heaven is God's Heaven.[/QUOTE]
3 heaven or 1 but have 3 level

 

[Ahwatukee]

“28 Do not be amazed at this; for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”
Exactly when/where does this particular “hour” occur in your knowledge of “tribulation” doctrine?

Hello Mindwrencher,

When combining all of the scriptures regarding the resurrection, it soon becomes apparent that resurrection takes place in phases, which is called "the first resurrection." Because people have not done a complete study on this, the take the word "First" to mean "only," which is false. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, the church is next where the dead will rise and the living will be transformed, then the two witnesses who are resurrected in Revelation 11, the Male Child/144,000 who are changed and caught up to God in Rev.12:5 and the resurrection of the saints who will have died during the great tribulation, which takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The resurrection of the OT saints may be included in the latter.

So you see, there are phases to the first resurrection of the righteous. There will also be a resurrection of the unrighteous at the end of the thousand years. Those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over, where in opposition, those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, the second death has power over them, the second death being the lake of fire. In fact they are always referred to as "the dead" even after they are resurrected, which is referring to their unsaved state with God.

 

[Evmur]

Good day, Evmur,

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: This is the event of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, dead and living, where we are caught up to meet Him in the air, where according to John 14:1-3, He takes us back to the Father's house. This takes place prior to the God's wrath.

Matthew 24:29-31: This event takes place after God's wrath when the Lord, with the church, returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 14:13-18 is the Lord descending to the atmosphere to gather His church and return to the Father's house. And Matthew 24:29-31 is the Lord's physical and visible return to the earth to end the age.

When you make these two events as being the same, then you are trampling on other scriptures which states that believers with in the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which is what would be happening if you have both events taking place after God's wrath. To be clear, Thess. and Matt. are not about the same event.

In addition, Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church. Angels do not gather the dead and the living at the time of the Lord's appearing. They are raise in power, immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the angels will be going throughout the earth gathering LIVING saints, i.e. those saints who will have made it through the entire wrath of God. These will be those great tribulation saints who will have survived the entire time of wrath and will be those, along with the remnant of Israel, who will enter inter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth.

but .. but

I am saying TWO events The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God. if you will pardon me it is your argument that compounds the two things.

We ARE saved from the wrath of God, totally agree. But we are not saved from tribulation. Tribulation comes from man. "in the world you will have tribulation"

Tribulation is persecution. The Great Tribulation is the great end-time persecution Jesus warns us of.

 

[Ahwatukee]

but .. but

I am saying TWO events The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God. if you will pardon me it is your argument that compounds the two things.

We ARE saved from the wrath of God, totally agree. But we are not saved from tribulation. Tribulation comes from man. "in the world you will have tribulation"

Tribulation is persecution. The Great Tribulation is the great end-time persecution Jesus warns us of.

Hello again, evmur,

I previously agreed with you regarding this issue in that, Jesus said believers would have trials and tribulations, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness and which has been the case from the on-set of the church. However, once the church is gathered, then the time of God's wrath will begin, the Day of the Lord via the seals, trumpets and bowl Judgments. Everything that takes place during that time is God's wrath/tribulation, not Satan's and not man's, but God's. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, whether the coming wrath upon this earth or the judgment at the great white throne. It is because it is God's wrath and the fact that Jesus already satisfied it on our behalf, that believers cannot be exposed to it.

Therefore, until the Lord descends to gather the church, believers will experience trials and tribulations, but will be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Forgive me for any confusion regarding this issue.

 

[Evmur]

Hello again, evmur,

I previously agreed with you regarding this issue in that, Jesus said believers would have trials and tribulations, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness and which has been the case from the on-set of the church. However, once the church is gathered, then the time of God's wrath will begin, the Day of the Lord via the seals, trumpets and bowl Judgments. Everything that takes place during that time is God's wrath/tribulation, not Satan's and not man's, but God's. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, whether the coming wrath upon this earth or the judgment at the great white throne. It is because it is God's wrath and the fact that Jesus already satisfied it on our behalf, that believers cannot be exposed to it.

Therefore, until the Lord descends to gather the church, believers will experience trials and tribulations, but will be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Forgive me for any confusion regarding this issue.

No we agree totally, except [I think] you call the wrath the GT and most folks understand from the doctrine that the church will escape the whole period. They think it is the Jews who are gunna take another hiding. I've heard people say God is going to make them scream for mercy before they are converted.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No we agree totally, except [I think] you call the wrath the GT and most folks understand from the doctrine that the church will escape the whole period. They think it is the Jews who are gunna take another hiding. I've heard people say God is going to make them scream for mercy before they are converted.

Good day, Evmur!

I believe that God's wrath/tribulation, will be poured out during the entire seven years following the churches removal. The GT is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And the reason that it is called the GT, is because it is in the middle of the seven years when that ruler, the antichrist, stops Israel's sacrifice and offerings and has that abomination set up in the temple and is also when he will proclaim himself to be God. It is also when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth which results in the desolation of Israel fleeing out into the wilderness where she is cared for during the 1260 days, i.e. the last 3 1/2 years. It is also the same time when the beast/antichrist wages war against and conquers the saints (Gentiles) who come out of the great tribulation.

But to recap, I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will occupy the entire seven years in their chronological order. Sometime after the church is gathered, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant which is synonymous with the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24-27.

|<------------------------------------ SEVEN YEARS OF GOD'S WRATH/TRIBULATION------------------------------------------->|
|<----------------------- 3 1/2 YEARS-------------ABOMINATION SET UP-------------------3 1/2 YEARS (GT)----------------->|
|<----------------------------SEALS------------------------TRUMPETS------------------------------BOWLS------------------------->|