1Cor. 12, Romans12, Ephesians 4..
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C
coby
Guest
C
coby
Guest
What's unbiblical about an overseer?
Romans 16:3-5 (KJV)*
3*Greet*Priscilla*(named first)and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:*4*Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.*5*Likewise*greet*the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.*
Colossians 4:15 (NASB)*
15*Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also*Nympha*and*the church that is in her house.
Qualifications of Overseers
3*This*is*a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a]*he desires a good work.*2*A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;*3*not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,*but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;*4*one who rules his own house well, having*his*children in submission with all reverence*5*(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);*6*not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the*same*condemnation as the devil.*7*Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Romans 16:3-5 (KJV)*
3*Greet*Priscilla*(named first)and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:*4*Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.*5*Likewise*greet*the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.*
Colossians 4:15 (NASB)*
15*Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also*Nympha*and*the church that is in her house.
Qualifications of Overseers
3*This*is*a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a]*he desires a good work.*2*A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;*3*not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,*but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;*4*one who rules his own house well, having*his*children in submission with all reverence*5*(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);*6*not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the*same*condemnation as the devil.*7*Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
A
Ariel82
Guest
The body of Christ is NOT being edified. Proof.
Romans 12:4 and 6 . 'For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same function.'
Function here does NOT mean cleaning toilets or driving the bus. Read this whole chapter. I have. I could not find the position of heading up a bake sale in any of these scriptures. Break free from that mind set please.
'Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us...' 'Us' here does NOT mean the Ministerial League of Associate Pastors. Wait for it....wait for it....it means US, the people, the body of Christ...every member. Take a deep breath. Don't go apoplectic on me. Stay with me.
1Cor. 12:4 and 6-7. 'Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.'
'And here are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.'
The 'All' in the previous verse isn't referring to the Ministerial League of Associate Pastors either. It's still speaking about 'US', the folks, the body of Christ, every member. Read the whole chapter please. Take a heart pill if need be, but read it prayerfully.
The five fold ministry functions are ....Ephesians 4:12.....'for the perfecting of the saints, (here's where it gets real ugly for some) FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY..(who is working the ministry?.....not the Ministerial League of the Associate Pastors again....nope...its 'US'. The little people. The body of Christ, every member)...(for he what?...wait for it....wait for it....put your crash Helmet on) FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.
So now. I submit, with all the above positive scriptural, biblical, NT ecclesiastical proof, that we Christians, in the context of modern church, are NOT BEING EDIFIED as God has designed. We are being cheated and misled, intentionally or not, and we, individually, are paying a high cost for it, whether we know it or not. Every member edifying the whole with their spiritual function in the open meeting. That's bible. It's not allowed by the controllers. It's not happening.
Please study this out for yourself. This thread is for those that know something is lacking and hunger for a greater experience in the things of God. It's up to us to demand it. It's time we start 'going by the book'. Not just saying we go by the book, but actually going by the book. Love you all. Be free, be blessed.
Romans 12:4 and 6 . 'For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same function.'
Function here does NOT mean cleaning toilets or driving the bus. Read this whole chapter. I have. I could not find the position of heading up a bake sale in any of these scriptures. Break free from that mind set please.
'Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us...' 'Us' here does NOT mean the Ministerial League of Associate Pastors. Wait for it....wait for it....it means US, the people, the body of Christ...every member. Take a deep breath. Don't go apoplectic on me. Stay with me.
1Cor. 12:4 and 6-7. 'Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.'
'And here are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.'
The 'All' in the previous verse isn't referring to the Ministerial League of Associate Pastors either. It's still speaking about 'US', the folks, the body of Christ, every member. Read the whole chapter please. Take a heart pill if need be, but read it prayerfully.
The five fold ministry functions are ....Ephesians 4:12.....'for the perfecting of the saints, (here's where it gets real ugly for some) FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY..(who is working the ministry?.....not the Ministerial League of the Associate Pastors again....nope...its 'US'. The little people. The body of Christ, every member)...(for he what?...wait for it....wait for it....put your crash Helmet on) FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.
So now. I submit, with all the above positive scriptural, biblical, NT ecclesiastical proof, that we Christians, in the context of modern church, are NOT BEING EDIFIED as God has designed. We are being cheated and misled, intentionally or not, and we, individually, are paying a high cost for it, whether we know it or not. Every member edifying the whole with their spiritual function in the open meeting. That's bible. It's not allowed by the controllers. It's not happening.
Please study this out for yourself. This thread is for those that know something is lacking and hunger for a greater experience in the things of God. It's up to us to demand it. It's time we start 'going by the book'. Not just saying we go by the book, but actually going by the book. Love you all. Be free, be blessed.
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P
Persuaded
Guest
An honest question for you Yet.
If you came to our Bible study tonight, what would want to do?
How would you "minister" to us?
How much time would you expect to have?
If you came to our Bible study tonight, what would want to do?
How would you "minister" to us?
How much time would you expect to have?
The 'church' as we know it today seems a million miles from the NT 'church'.
That may be a great generalization, but I'll stand on it. There is a gulf between our average Christianity and the ecclesia of the
NT that makes the Grand Canyon look like a cavity in someone's tooth. Leonard Ravenhill.
See? I'm not the only voice crying in the wilderness!
That may be a great generalization, but I'll stand on it. There is a gulf between our average Christianity and the ecclesia of the
NT that makes the Grand Canyon look like a cavity in someone's tooth. Leonard Ravenhill.
See? I'm not the only voice crying in the wilderness!
The opening poster addressed this in a response, of course. Acts 20:28 and the opening verses of I Peter 5 tell elders to pastor.
I don't know that all who pastor are elders. But the elders of the church are to pastor.
Not exactly in those words. But take a look at I Corinthians 14. Paul presents all prophesying in a positive light when he mentions the idea of an unlearned or unbelieving man coming into the assembly. He says that when they come together 'every one of you' has a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation, interpretation. He says, 'let all things be done unto edifying.' So 'every one of you' is to be allowed to do these things in an edifying manner.
And he also addresses the Corinthians and all who believe in Jesus and says, "for ye may all prophesy, one by one...." So if the Spirit does move an individual to prophesy, he should be allowed to do so within the guidelines the Lord has given in the scripture.
What I don't see is any kind of indication that speaking in church was limited to elders. Romans 12 commands the one gifted to prophesy to prophesy, the one gifted to teach to teach, and the one gifted to exhort to exhort. I Peter 4 tells believers to minister their gifts to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Stewardship is a serious issue. The elders who pastor the flock of God should be encouraging stewardship of spiritual gifts, including teaching, prophesying, and edification.
Romans 12 commands the one gifted to teach to teach. It doesn't say that this is only the case for elders. Where else would they have used this gift except for the assembly, i.e, the 'church'? Paul instructed Titus that a bishop be 'apt to teach.' (Paul uses 'elders' and 'bishop' interchangeably in the passage. See also Acts 20:28 where the elders in one city church are called 'bishops' and I Peter 5 where elders are told to take 'oversight' of the flock of God.)
If those appointed bishops are to be 'apt to teach' before they are appointed bishops, wouldn't they have shown evidence of this beforehand? How would they have demonstrated this except by teaching the assembly?
I think this points out one of the weaknesses of the teaching of the Reformed tradition, the idea that ordained ministers are to be 'ministers of the word and sacrament.' That's okay, I guess, unless you start limiting the ministry of the word and sacrament to ordained ministers. The scripture does not teach such an idea.
We also owe the confusion over pastors and elders to the Reformed tradition and the weird way Presbyterians copied the model of Geneva Switzerland in the time of John Calvin. Torrence had an interesting article on this in a Scottish theological journal in the mid 1980s. I saw a copy of it in my stuff as I was sorting through it recently.
In Germanic languages, the word 'priest' or similar words were used to refer to Old Testament 'priests', but the word derived for the Greek word for church elder. Luther wrote of the 'priesthood of all believers'-- not referring to the eldership of all believers. So there was a lot of confusion over that word. The Reformed folks in Switzerland started calling their ordained ministers 'pastors' (or their equivalent for it) out of Ephesians 4:11. They wanted a Christian form of city government and saw models in Greek-speaking communities in the 300's in Syria and North Africa that referred to their community leaders as 'elders.' So they did that. Their city councilmen were 'elders.' Church and state were merged so these men were active in church and the Christian community. If I'm not mistaken, they were likely the ones who made the judgments to drive Anabaptists out of town and threaten to burn them, who burnt Servetus, and passed judgment on those who would name their children with names like Claud instead of Abraham.
Scottish Presbyterians copied Geneva and blew their model up into a state church. They ended up with extra-Biblical unordained elders, which turned into the modern non-pastoral board elder. Originally, both the Genevan Reformed folks and the Scottish Reformed folks knew their 'elders' weren't Biblical elders, using Biblical elder verses to refer to pastors. But the Presbyterians got confused after a couple of hundred years and started using 'elder' verses to refer to their lay elders.
I've come late to the thread having taking a break from ChristianChat.com for a long time. On the one hand, I agree with a lot of Yet's points. On the other, I don't think of all pastors as charlatans, etc.
I believe many pastors are God-fearing gifted members of the body of Christ that operate in the gift of teaching. I can't find a set 'salary' in scripture, or a negotiated contract between a professional pastor and the congregation in scripture. But I do see that Paul told Timothy that elders who rule well are worthy of double honor. The Greek word for honor is time, a two syllable word with a long e at the end, pronounced a little bit like the English 'tea may' (but probably without the dipthong 'y's at the end of syllables that most speakers of English don't pick up on because they are so engrained in our phonetic system.)
I took a Classics class in college and read the Illiad in translation. One bit of a lecture that was actually useful was the meaning of the word 'time'. The general, Menalaus or Agamemnon or whichever one it was wanted to punish Achilles for not following his orders or doing what he wanted. Achilles had received 'time'-- honor-- previously. He'd been given spoil, some gold or whatever and a slave girl, the daughter of a priest they'd captured. He'd been sleeping with her, apparently. So the general took Achilles 'honor'-- his spoil-- material goods and the slave-- back. In doing so he took the 'honor' he'd given Achilles.
The teacher explained it. Both the physical goods and slave were 'honor' as well as the abstract concept of honor.
Elders are considered worthy of double 'honor' in I Timothy 5, in the same passage where it says to 'honor' widows. The issue was physical provision for widows.
So if elders rule well-- and elders are to pastor-- they are worthy of double honor, especially those who minister in preaching and teaching.
So it is fitting to support the elders of the church just as it is fitting to support apostles and evangelists who preach the word of God and spread the Gospel into new areas.
I Corinthians 14 speaks of 'every one of you' having a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation, interpretation. Some of those who teach may be doing a bit of 'sermonizing'. They may teach for a long time. Even if Paul had a some dialogue, some interaction in Acts 20, he still probably did the bulk of the speaking for a long time. Teachers need to be allowed to function in their gift as well. Prophets may go on a bit, too. They certainly did at times in the Old Testament. If the Spirit isn't moving anyone else to speak, why would be complain about their speaking for quite a while? We must judge after two or three. But if a revelation comes to one who sits by, the speaking prophet must hold his peace.
So speaking for a long time and elders being honored, even materially, by the congregation is not forbidden. I don't believe all professional pastors are 'charlatans' even if I may not care for the way the 'system' they are a part of operates.
I believe many pastors are God-fearing gifted members of the body of Christ that operate in the gift of teaching. I can't find a set 'salary' in scripture, or a negotiated contract between a professional pastor and the congregation in scripture. But I do see that Paul told Timothy that elders who rule well are worthy of double honor. The Greek word for honor is time, a two syllable word with a long e at the end, pronounced a little bit like the English 'tea may' (but probably without the dipthong 'y's at the end of syllables that most speakers of English don't pick up on because they are so engrained in our phonetic system.)
I took a Classics class in college and read the Illiad in translation. One bit of a lecture that was actually useful was the meaning of the word 'time'. The general, Menalaus or Agamemnon or whichever one it was wanted to punish Achilles for not following his orders or doing what he wanted. Achilles had received 'time'-- honor-- previously. He'd been given spoil, some gold or whatever and a slave girl, the daughter of a priest they'd captured. He'd been sleeping with her, apparently. So the general took Achilles 'honor'-- his spoil-- material goods and the slave-- back. In doing so he took the 'honor' he'd given Achilles.
The teacher explained it. Both the physical goods and slave were 'honor' as well as the abstract concept of honor.
Elders are considered worthy of double 'honor' in I Timothy 5, in the same passage where it says to 'honor' widows. The issue was physical provision for widows.
So if elders rule well-- and elders are to pastor-- they are worthy of double honor, especially those who minister in preaching and teaching.
So it is fitting to support the elders of the church just as it is fitting to support apostles and evangelists who preach the word of God and spread the Gospel into new areas.
I Corinthians 14 speaks of 'every one of you' having a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation, interpretation. Some of those who teach may be doing a bit of 'sermonizing'. They may teach for a long time. Even if Paul had a some dialogue, some interaction in Acts 20, he still probably did the bulk of the speaking for a long time. Teachers need to be allowed to function in their gift as well. Prophets may go on a bit, too. They certainly did at times in the Old Testament. If the Spirit isn't moving anyone else to speak, why would be complain about their speaking for quite a while? We must judge after two or three. But if a revelation comes to one who sits by, the speaking prophet must hold his peace.
So speaking for a long time and elders being honored, even materially, by the congregation is not forbidden. I don't believe all professional pastors are 'charlatans' even if I may not care for the way the 'system' they are a part of operates.
Why was Jesus killed? For preaching against the sins of the world? Nope! The pastors in Jerusalem had him killed because He preached against the traditions of men while scrapping the word of God. Mark 7:1-13. Traditions trumping the word for 20 centuries now. A sit was then, so it is now. Nothing new under the sun. Ekklesiastes 1:9
Jeremiah 23:7. 'I have not sent THESE prophets(pastors) yet they ran (appointing themselves as clerics) I have NOT spoken to them, yet they prophesied (taught).
But if they had (at least) stood in My council (staid with God's word) and caused My people to hear My words (the true word of God, not wrested scripture) then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.'
Teaching the TRUTH would have God's backing and anointing that convicts the heart and brings repentance. A FALSE HERETICAL word does NOT have that power. The TRUTH will set a person free, John 8:32, a deception will NOT! Stop with the 'tickling'. 2Tim. 4:3
vs. 14 I have seen also in the prophets(pastors) of jerusalem(the harlot church) they commit adultery (on modern terms, Internet porn for one. Google 'pastors hooked on porn'. Way to much time on their hands, suppose to be working jobs. See: Acts 20:33-35. Eyes filled with adultery.) and walk in LIES(teaching deception for fun and financial profit).
Somebody please wake up to God's word.
You call me a trouble maker for saying the apostasy is here and now which the word says it is.
You say the organized 'church' is okee dokee which the word says it isn't.
Im going with His word.
But if they had (at least) stood in My council (staid with God's word) and caused My people to hear My words (the true word of God, not wrested scripture) then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.'
Teaching the TRUTH would have God's backing and anointing that convicts the heart and brings repentance. A FALSE HERETICAL word does NOT have that power. The TRUTH will set a person free, John 8:32, a deception will NOT! Stop with the 'tickling'. 2Tim. 4:3
vs. 14 I have seen also in the prophets(pastors) of jerusalem(the harlot church) they commit adultery (on modern terms, Internet porn for one. Google 'pastors hooked on porn'. Way to much time on their hands, suppose to be working jobs. See: Acts 20:33-35. Eyes filled with adultery.) and walk in LIES(teaching deception for fun and financial profit).
Somebody please wake up to God's word.
You call me a trouble maker for saying the apostasy is here and now which the word says it is.
You say the organized 'church' is okee dokee which the word says it isn't.
Im going with His word.
C
coby2
Guest
More falsehoods from you. Jesus never scrapped the word of God. Jesus confirmed the word of God and fulfilled the word of God.
Jesus was not killed by the will of man as you suppose but Jesus made Himself and offering for our sin. Willingly He went to the cross of Calvary and took upon Himself our sin that He might make atonement for us and provide eternal justification before the Father in heaven.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jude 3- 'beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, IT WAS NEEDFUL for me to write unto you, and exhort you that YOU SHOULD ERNESTLY CONTEND (apagonizomai: as a combatant with intensive force) for the faith which was ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.' Any twisted gospel reject. Galatians 1:8
'For there were certain men who crept in unnoticed ...UNGODLY MEN.....denying (contradicting Christ for fun and profit) the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.'
I am told to NOT be so combative and forceful. But the above verses command me to be a vigilant warrior for truth. For the gospel as it has been given to us in His word. I have no choice but to keep teaching His word though it falls on many deaf ears. Yea it hurts but woe unto me if I do not teach the truth. 1Cor. 9:16
'For there were certain men who crept in unnoticed ...UNGODLY MEN.....denying (contradicting Christ for fun and profit) the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.'
I am told to NOT be so combative and forceful. But the above verses command me to be a vigilant warrior for truth. For the gospel as it has been given to us in His word. I have no choice but to keep teaching His word though it falls on many deaf ears. Yea it hurts but woe unto me if I do not teach the truth. 1Cor. 9:16
M
Mitspa
Guest
Reform is coming to the church and those who bring it will have a rod of correction...like Paul. Woe unto those who refuse to repent when God makes this clear.