1st Pentecost (Mt Sinai) & 1st post resurrection Pentecost (Temple Mt) were a betrothal/marriage contract.

DavidTree · Jun 4, 2022

JTB said:

This brings up the question of who is Christ's bride. It's commonly believed to be the church, but I think that's wrong. I can explain why, but it's long and detailed and most won't take the time to read and understand it. But if you're thinking that being part of the church automatically makes you part of His Bride, you're not getting the whole picture.

Just noticed Post #20

DavidTree · Jun 4, 2022

JTB said:

Who is the Bride of Christ.

In Revelation an angel tells John "this is the bride of Christ". Does John see a church building or group of people? No, he sees the Holy City of New Jerusalem. So on the surface the Bride of Christ is very clearly specified - as the Holy City of New Jerusalem.

But then John sees something else - that there are people who live within New Jerusalem, while there are nations of others who live outside the Holy City. Now remember, this is on the new earth so these are ALL saved people. Yet there is a clear distinction between those who live in the City, and those who live outside of it.

Another distinction is presented by the Tree of Life. The people who live in the City eat from the tree of life, whereas we see that the leaves of the tree are for the nations that surround it.

One thing we see about those who live in the City is that they are God’s servants. Servants can take the form of tradesmen, who are paid a wage and work at will. Or servants can be slaves who are given neither consideration. In Old Testament times, if you had a Hebrew slave you had to offer him his freedom after a period of service. But if you were a good and loving master he might not have wanted to leave. So, you would pierce his ear as a symbol of his becoming your bondslave. In return for his agreeing to be your slave for life, you agreed to care for him and his family for life. Now the Bible talks about both kinds of servants, workers and slaves, but when God speaks about His end-time servants He speaks of His bondslaves, those who when offered freedom have chosen slavery.

The population of New Jerusalem also includes those who "overcome.” Overcome is a fighting term, meaning to gain victory against an adversary in combat. In Jesus’ letters to the churches He commends their good works, rebukes their wrongs, exhorts them to seek a special understanding, and makes a specific promise to "those who overcome.” They are promised to eat from the tree of life; to not be hurt by the second death; and to be given hidden manna and a white stone with a new name on it, unknown to any others but themselves and God. They are also given power over the nations (keeping in mind this is the New Earth). They are also to be given the morning star, to be clothed in white, and to never have their names blotted out from the book of life but confessed before the Father and His angels. They are to be made pillars in the temple of God and to never go out from it, and to have written on them the name of the City of God.

These promises are all identifiable to those described by John of the inhabitants of New Jerusalem. Except for one new promise, that of being given the morning star. Jesus called himself the Morning Star, and promised to give Himself as such to His Bride.

This should start to put together some kind of picture for you. Jesus’ bride is those who have sealed themselves to God as true bondslaves. They will be His Bride and live with Him in the City. Those who served Him as workers will live outside the City in the nations of the saved.

Perhaps His Bride could also be seen by looking at her prefiguration. God will physically dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem. On Old Earth (our Earth) God physically dwelt on earth in the Tabernacle and the Temple. The facilities both consisted of a central structure, surrounded by a walled courtyard. One tribe out of the 12 (the Levites) were called apart from the rest to serve inside the tabernacle/temple as God’s priests. The other tribes lived outside, but brought their sacrifices into the tabernacle/temple. This is what John saw with the New Earth and New Jerusalem - the only difference being nations instead of tribes, a city instead of a tent/building, and commerce instead of sacrifice.

Nowhere yet have we seen "the Church” in descriptions of His bride. This is unusual, because the Church is largely accepted as being the Bride of Christ. That connection comes from Ephesians 5:22-33, where Paul talks about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the Church. In trying to explain what he calls a mystery, Paul quotes Genesis 2:23 where God declares that man and woman will become one flesh. In this setting God has just taken part of Adam’s body (his rib) to create his wife Eve. Paul specifically calls the church the body of Christ; Jesus is called the second Adam. To fit the pattern of Adam would it not follow that a part, and not all, of His body will be taken to create His bride?

In another place (2 Cor. 11) Paul explains further. He says he wishes to present us to the Lord as a chaste virgin. But then he fears that we will corrupt that purity. I think what Paul meant is that the Church, the aggregate body of all who believe in Christ, have been born-again virgin for betrothal to the Lord. But this virginal quality can be corrupted on an individual basis. Those of His people who don’t fall to this corruption and remain virginal will be taken from those who do, to become His bride. The rib from the body.

The Bible also talks about people entering into a wedding feast at Jesus’ coming. But in a Biblical wedding feast, the bride was not invited and did not attend. She was sequestered away someplace being prepared for the wedding night. After the feast, the groom would go to take his bride from that place. An example of this is Jacob’s marriage to Rachel (Gen. 29). If his bride to be had been at the wedding feast, Jacob would have known he was being given Leah instead. So again, there are two groups here… the general populace who feast, and the bride who is sequestered preparing for the groom.

So if a Biblical bride is not at the feast, where does she go? We see in Revelation 12 the prophecy of a woman who flees to a place prepared for her in the wilderness where she is cared for. Hosea 2 talks about the day of the Lord, as God speaks about Israel’s harlotry and His judgment upon her, after which He allures her into the wilderness and speaks comfort to her there. She is given vineyards as in the day she was called up out of Egypt, and she now calls Him Husband, not master. Jesus said that those in Judea should flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. The Judeans were very close and loyal to Him. Again, there’s a repeating theme.

God has made it clear thru that repetition. Among mankind there are two kinds of people - those who accept salvation and those who don't. Then God further divides the saved, into those who are workers and those who are slaves. On the New Earth, those who are slaves will inhabit New Jerusalem as His Bride. Those who are workers will live in the nations of the saved around it.

God will have a pure and chaste bride - those who are committed to be His eternal bondservants. Not all of His Body will be a part of her, but each of us has a chance to be that rib. It all depends on how much we love our Creator, and whether we let our simple dependence upon Him be corrupted.

Please post the Scriptures that show your view of a separation from the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ.

Edify · Jun 4, 2022

JTB said:

This I cannot agree with. We're either His or we're not.
Being a part of his body, we are His, unless we rebel as in the Falling away.

FlyingDove · Jun 4, 2022

Aaron56 said:

Hello,
I believe we should respect other's beliefs & I respect yours. I'm sure many people agree with your posted position. Here are a couple links that agree mine.

https://www.google.com/search?q=was...IABa4gBa5IBAzAuMZgBAKABAqABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=was+the+law+given+at+sinai+a+marriage+contract&va=b&t=hr&ia=web Best Wishes, JJ

Blik · Jun 4, 2022

Amanuensis said:

I got the idea that Penecost commemorted the giving of the law when scripture told me this was so.

Jeremiah 31: 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Amanuensis · Jun 4, 2022

Blik said:

Jesus told them to wait in the city of Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high and they would be witnesses to all nations.

When they were asked what does this mean

Peter quotes Joel... (not Jeremiah)

17And it will be in the last days, says God,

that I will pour out my Spirit on all people;

then your sons and your daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

and your old men will dream dreams.a

18I will even pour out my Spirit

on my servants in those days, both men and women

and they will prophesy.a

So shouldn't we focus on that as the meaning and reason for this event happening on that day?

If we try and figure out why God chose this Jewish Feast day (Frist Fruits) to fulfill the promise of the Spirit of Prophecy being poured out on the men and women believers of Christ to empower them to preach the Gospel with signs and wonders to the ends of the earth, we mustn't come up with theories about what the day of Pentecost foreshadows that takes attention away from this prophesy of Joel or the reason for this outpouring as Jesus told them about it.

It might be that God chose that day because that is when all these Jewish pilgrims from other nations would be in town to witness it.

If there is a shadow in the day of Pentecost to be considered I would be looking at the original meaning of the Feast Day. But any theory about a shadow being fulfilled must not obfuscate or take away from the main message of Acts 2.

The day had come when the promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was being poured out on the believers, (all 120, not just apostles and including women) who all spoke in tongues and by doing so were said to have prophesied, and were to go forth to all nations in this Holy Spirit power to preach the Gospel. Peter's message that day pierced the hearts of those that heard because there was a supernatural change in Peter to Preach such an anointing message as one who had the Power of the Spirit to Prophetically Preach in such a way as made the difference. In one day 3000 were saved which had never happened before this day. The Greater Works Jesus said would happen when they received this gift had begun.

All this talk about commemoration of Law, marriage and covenants aren't discussed in Acts 2. I just don't understand why it should be something that people discuss when talking about Pentecost.

It seems to have it's roots in mixing traditions of Jewish Pharisees as though they were correct and trying to make them shadows of New Testament realities. The problem is that those traditions trying to make Pentecost celebrate the giving of the Law was nonsense from the start as far as I can tell. All the commentaries provide footnotes where you can read where these teachings first started long after Pentecost was observed simply as a feast of firstfruits which was how it was still observed in the first century by most Jews.

Blik · Jun 4, 2022

Amanuensis said:

Jesus told them to wait in the city of Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high and they would be witnesses to all nations.

When they were asked what does this mean

Peter quotes Joel... (not Jeremiah)

17And it will be in the last days, says God,

that I will pour out my Spirit on all people;

then your sons and your daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

and your old men will dream dreams.a

18I will even pour out my Spirit

on my servants in those days, both men and women

and they will prophesy.a

So shouldn't we focus on that as the meaning and reason for this event happening on that day?

If we try and figure out why God chose this Jewish Feast day (Frist Fruits) to fulfill the promise of the Spirit of Prophecy being poured out on the men and women believers of Christ to empower them to preach the Gospel with signs and wonders to the ends of the earth, we mustn't come up with theories about what the day of Pentecost foreshadows that takes attention away from this prophesy of Joel or the reason for this outpouring as Jesus told them about it.

It might be that God chose that day because that is when all these Jewish pilgrims from other nations would be in town to witness it.

If there is a shadow in the day of Pentecost to be considered I would be looking at the original meaning of the Feast Day. But any theory about a shadow being fulfilled must not obfuscate or take away from the main message of Acts 2.

The day had come when the promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was being poured out on the believers, (all 120, not just apostles and including women) who all spoke in tongues and by doing so were said to have prophesied, and were to go forth to all nations in this Holy Spirit power to preach the Gospel. Peter's message that day pierced the hearts of those that heard because there was a supernatural change in Peter to Preach such an anointing message as one who had the Power of the Spirit to Prophetically Preach in such a way as made the difference. In one day 3000 were saved which had never happened before this day. The Greater Works Jesus said would happen when they received this gift had begun.

All this talk about commemoration of Law, marriage and covenants aren't discussed in Acts 2. I just don't understand why it should be something that people discuss when talking about Pentecost.

It seems to have it's roots in mixing traditions of Jewish Pharisees as though they were correct and trying to make them shadows of New Testament realities. The problem is that those traditions trying to make Pentecost celebrate the giving of the Law was nonsense from the start as far as I can tell. All the commentaries provide footnotes where you can read where these teachings first started long after Pentecost was observed simply as a feast of firstfruits which was how it was still observed in the first century by most Jews.

Do you think Peter is making Jeremiah a lia

Amanuensis · Jun 4, 2022

Blik said:

I don't understand what you mean. But I am going to bow out. I am not trying to argue about it.

I commented because I was concerned that the message of Acts 2 was getting overlapped with another message but I have already posted enough to help anyone find more information if they care to, and I don't want to go on and on about it.

Aaron56 · Jun 4, 2022

Blik said:

When you administrate the curse and the cure you are allowed to dispense both and remain righteous. The curse will bring the righteous to Christ.

Aaron56 · Jun 4, 2022

FlyingDove said:

What religion is this: where all views are equally respected?

If you can receive it, what I wrote will lead you to the truth. Have you any questions?

JTB · Jun 5, 2022

Edify said:

I never said we turn away.

What I said is that, as a rib was taken from Adam's body to create his wife Eve, a part of Christ's Body is taken to for His Bride.

That doesn't mean the body ceases to be.

JTB · Jun 5, 2022

DavidTree said:

I assume we all know scripture well enough to know the basics, but yes I will revisit this and add more scriptural notations.

DavidTree · Jun 5, 2022

JTB said:

THANK YOU BROTHER, for this assesment as i have found there being many on here who have not read/studied the Scripture for very long or just follow what they are told by their religion/background.

DavidTree · Jun 6, 2022

JTB said:

The Rib from Adam formed his Wife = only Two People here

No rib was taken out of Christ, we are added to Christ spiritually when we are Born-Again by the Spirit = Two People here.

Find the Scripture(s) that make Three People = A.) Christ B.) His Body C.) His Bride

PEACE

JTB · Jun 6, 2022

DavidTree said:

That was the premise of the entire post.

1. Revelations... God/Christ, New Jerusalem, and the nations surrounding New Jerusalem. That's 3.
2.The temple/tabernacle ... God, the tribes, and the Levites. That's 3 again.
3. Levels of servitude... God, servants, and bondslaves. 3 once more.

Please read with the intent to hear and consider, not just to respond. Then you won't miss these obvious things.

DavidTree said:

True, true.

One reason I don't always quote scripture is because I hate scripture gambling. I play one verse saying something. You lay down 2 implying the opposite. I see your two and raise you a third. You then go all in with every verse/chip you got. So I then respond with an opposing pile. This kind of thing rarely gets anyone anywhere.

There's very few who post here that don't have scripture backing up their position. So I tend to try and focus not as much on what it says, but what it means. Because scripture can be twisted to say darn near anything one wants. The meaning is what's important.

DavidTree · Jun 6, 2022

JTB said:

lol = scripture gambling = lol................i liked that

Listen, people/religion gambles with the scriptures but never is the operation of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is a 'must have and must speak forth' my Brother = See Matthew 4:1-11 , John 5:39 , John ch17

Without the exact Scripture verses/passages backed up by "two or more witnesses(Scripture Itself)" we are only left with opinions.

The Twelve Tribes are One Body with the Tabernacle representing Christ = only 2

You cannot say God is the the 3rd because the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are ONE.

But i see how you surmised that and my mind/heart is open to new discovery but it must say this in Scripture in the mouth of two or three witnesses(from Scripture).

What is needed(MUST) here is NT Scripture separating the Body of Christ from the Bride of Christ.

So please bring forth the Scripture to "bear witness" so that i can SEE.
PEACE

JTB · Jun 6, 2022

DavidTree said:

OK, one more try.... Please try to put aside your confirmation bias for a moment and listen in and hear what's being said.

In Revelation we find the New Earth (You're familiar with Rev 21 so you really don't need me to point that out do you?). This is AFTER the GWT and the decreation of the existing earth and heavens and the lake of fire judgment. So everyone on the New Earth are believers. Ie, the body. The body of Christ inhabits the New earth. But we see that body divided, between those who live in New Jerusalem, and those who inhabit the nations outside the city. So you have God/Christ, the body of Christ inhabiting the NE, and the subset taken from the body to live in New Jerusalem.

Same with the temple/tabernacle (You know where to find that, right?) You have God over the body of the Jews, ie the 12 tribes. But then you have ONE tribe/part of that body of 12 (the Levites, I'm sure you can find that as well) set apart to enter the Temple/Tabernacle where God dwells. Again, there's God, the body, and the subset of that body.

Ditto with the servants. The Body of Christ is made up of the servants of God. But again, those servants are then divided into regular servants and bondslaves (Bondslaves being set apart from regular servants in Deuteronomy 15). So AGAIN, there is God/Christ, the overall body of His servants, and His Bondslaves which are part of that body yet set aside from them.

I hope you can see those 3 parts now, 'cause I ain't gonna 'splain it again.

Have a blessed day!

DavidTree · Jun 6, 2022

JTB said:

What you just did here is the exact same process that those who hold to 'pre-trib rapture' do.

This is why i am asking you to provide Scriptural Witness from the LORD/Gospel or the Apostles Letters that clearly separate the Body of Christ from the Bride of Christ.

Going to chapter 21 in Revelation, which is far advanced AFTER the Lord's Second Coming and AFTER the 1,000 Year Reign, does not show Witness to your claim.

PLEASE bring forth from the LORD/Gospel and the Apostles that bear Witness to your claim and show the separation of the Body of Christ from the Bride of Christ = simple and Trustworthy.

Thank You my Brother in Christ

FlyingDove · Jun 7, 2022

JTB said:

I understand & respect your posted view. I'd like to add a different perspective.

I believe these verses speak of One Body/One Bride

Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(MY NOTE: Christ died for His Church/Body made up of both Jew & Gentile See Eph below)

Eph 2:
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(MY NOTE: This middle WALL of PARTITION Paul is referring to was a wall of stone balusters. It separated/divided the outer temple Courtyard of the Gentiles (considered ungodly/impure) from the rest of the temple.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(MY NOTE: Thru faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice Jew & Gentile are made into ONE BODY/ONE BRIDE)

Eph 3:6 - That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(MY NOTE: Gentile believers are fellow-HEIRS & PARTAKERS in the same/ONE BODY/ONE BRIDE, Also see 1 Cor 12:12-31)

New Jerusalem:

I believe at death all believers Jew & Gentile will go to the place Jesus went to prepare (Jn 14:3). And will upon His return help Him rule.

The Jewish remnant & other believers alive at Jesus 2nd coming. Still in their Adamic/sinful nature, will under Christs peaceful/no war rule, quickly repopulate earth. After 1000 yrs satan will be loosed. Their offspring, like us today, will have a choice to make. Shalom, JJ

JTB · Jun 7, 2022

DavidTree said:

I don't believe in pre-trib, so at least I got that going for me

.

If Revelation 21 doesn't do it for you, specifically talking about the new earth, New Jerusalem and those who live there, and nations outside the Holy City and those who live there, yes all occurring not just after the second coming and the millennium and after the great white throne judgement and the casting of unbelievers into the lake of fire, I don't know what will my friend. It doesn't get any clearer than John being shown the Bride as specifically being a city of people set apart from the rest of the new earth which is populated entirely by believers.

1st Pentecost (Mt Sinai) & 1st post resurrection Pentecost (Temple Mt) were a betrothal/marriage contract.

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