2 Cor. 5:17 and Rom. 7:15-20

[FW_KeyboardMan]

How do you reconcile these two passages? One says the old things have passed away, and the other says that sin still lives within.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Paul, in Romans 7, is referencing his Old Life prior to the removal of his sinful nature. We know this because he of what he wrote in Colossians about this Curse of the Sinful Nature. By the way, the Curse of the Sin Nature is the Purpose of Christ, to come to earth to redeem us of this Curse.

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Christ cuts away the Curse from the Hearts of His Holy Elect:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

So as Paul, in Romans 7, writes of his Sinful Nature, this was well after that nature was removed, on or at about the time of his Damascus Road experience.

Romans 7:18, 25 NLT - "And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. ... 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

If Paul writes about the Sinful Nature being cut out by the Circumcision of Christ, then it means that as he referenced it in Romans 7, he was referring to the days PRIOR to its removal.

So when Paul states, "Who will rescue us from this life dominated by sin and death," the answer is Christ as he clearly teaches in Colossians 2:9-15. And so now, as you read those amazing Seven verses, they take on an entirely new meaning.

Below, in verse 10, we find that Paul teaches that through the Circumcision of Christ, a person is whole and complete because the Heart has been Purified. The Sinful Nature has been cut away. The Curse of the Lord has been removed and disassociated with the heart, thus we have been made right with God. Therefore, and back to Romans 7, we can now know FOR SURE that Paul was referring to his "Old Man."

After the Damascus Road experience, he no longer lived by the Laws of Moses, but he began to live by the Effectual Laws of the Spirit of Life.

Romans 8:2 NLT - "And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."

The old Sinful Nature has now been replaced by the Divine Nature . . . which is Life-Giving!

Romans 8:2 NLT - "And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."

We cannot hold the Divine Nature and Sinful Nature at the same time, for anything with a Sinful Nature cannot be Divine . . . the Holy Spirit will not share His Temple with the Devil. That happened only in the temple made of stone, but this temple, our body . . . this is His property, having been purchased by the Blood of Christ.

HNV - ". . . in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation, -- in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the Ruach HaKodesh of promise, who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory."

 

[JaumeJ]

How do you reconcile these two passages? One says the old things have passed away, and the other says that sin still lives within.

God has begun a work in each of us, not we. He will not have perfected anyone until His Day. It is in the Book.

 

[Blik]

How do you reconcile these two passages? One says the old things have passed away, and the other says that sin still lives within.

2 Cor. 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

If you read on in these passages you find that when we receive the new of Christ within us, we are still human and must choose to listen to Christ within. In verse 20 it brings this out by imploring us to the appeal Christ within makes to you.

Romans 7: 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Paul is simply stating that he is human and humans are born in sin.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Sorry guys . . . in my above post, I actually copied and pasted Rom 8:2 twice. The second posting is supposed to be:

2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."

 

[FW_KeyboardMan]

So as Paul, in Romans 7, writes of his Sinful Nature, this was well after that nature was removed, on or at about the time of his Damascus Road experience.

So are you saying that Romans 7 was written by Paul to describe his life before salvation?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

So as Paul, in Romans 7, writes of his Sinful Nature, this was well after that nature was removed, on or at about the time of his Damascus Road experience.

So are you saying that Romans 7 was written by Paul to describe his life before salvation?

100%

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

We should ask ourselves . . . is it reasonable to believe that Paul could have written any piece of Romans if he were still under the Curse of the Lord?

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

 

[FW_KeyboardMan]

Where does I John 1:5-10 fall in relation to this?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Where does I John 1:5-10 fall in relation to this?

I wish that we could sit down and speak about it, for there is much that could be discussed.

First . . .

1 John 1:5 NKJV - "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all."

Because there is no darkness in God, and because Christ is in God, there can be no darkness in Christ. If we are in Christ, and if Christ is in God, then there can be no darkness within us. This means that the Curse of the Sinful Nature (as Paul discussed in Romans 7 and Colossians 2:9-15) must be removed.

Look at the first two verses of Colossians 2:9-15. They are:

Colossians 2:9-10 NKJV - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

In Christ is "fullness" and because of this fullness, and because we are "complete in him," how can the Sinful Nature remain? Now, look at the next verse following 9-10, for the first two verses exlplain verse 11:

Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

It is because of the Circumcision of Christ, Paul clearly teaches, that we are able to be considered whole and complete. If the Curse is not cut away and permanently removed, how can we be whole and complete?

As for the rest of the passages in John, people will continue to sin, but this does not mean that they remain under a Curse. Why? The Purpose of Christ is to redeem us of this Curse, and when subsequent sin occurs, His death upon the cross has paid the price for those sins. Thus, we are considered made Right with God, not by whether or not we are physically perfect, but because Christ presents us to God as Spiritually perfect. When we sin, we have an advocate who is Christ (also taught in 1 John):

1 John 2:1 NLT - "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous."

Old Testament sacrifice never made anyone "Right" with God. They only paid for certain sins . . . but they did not provide Salvation. Circumcision of the Heart is the beginning of Salvation. Jesus then grants the ability to Turn and Repent. He then sends the Gift of the Holy Spirit. However, for the Old Testament Saints, they would need to wait for the Day of Christ so that they could believe in him and the Power of His Resurrection.

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

Back to Colossians 2:9-15 . . .

Colossians 2:12 NLT - "For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead."

My friend, I beg you to study Colossians 2:9-15 for the next one to two years. The entire Bible revolves around those SEVEN perfect verses. They will show you the THREE elements of Christ necessary to understand the True Gospel. The Gospel revolves around the three below elements:

The Purpose of Christ
The Work of Christ
The Effect of Christ

If we do not understand how to explain those three elements of Christ, we cannot say that we Truly know the Gospel. The above three elements are nothing more than descriptive chapter titles of a potential book, thus, they ARE NOT the Gospel themselves. But, if we can explain all three, then we will be equipped to actually knock on doors and spread the True Word of God.

John 3:16 is the Purpose
Colossians 2:9-15 is the Work
Romans 12:2 is the Effect

May the Lord grant you this Understanding (Circumcision of the Heart), the Knowledge (the Gift of the Holy Spirit) and the Wisdom (God) to express them.

 

[p_rehbein]

How do you reconcile these two passages? One says the old things have passed away, and the other says that sin still lives within.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

................,................................................................................................

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


Can't help but notice you offer zero thoughts concerning the reconcilliation of the Scriptures you posted. Hmmmmm...........

I bet no matter what answers/thoughts others post, you will continue to add Scriptures to the ones in the OP......

Now, do not get me wrong, I LOVE FISHING, but I ain't all that fond of those who come to CC for the purpose of Pfishing............

 

[FW_KeyboardMan]

Can't help but notice you offer zero thoughts concerning the reconcilliation of the Scriptures you posted. Hmmmmm...........

I bet no matter what answers/thoughts others post, you will continue to add Scriptures to the ones in the OP......

I offered no thoughts because I don't know the answer to the question. What does "old things have passed away" refer to if other verses discuss a Christian's sin? My goal is merely understanding so that I can work out things in my own life. Your suspicious assessment of my motives is somewhat hurtful.

 

[FW_KeyboardMan]

As for the rest of the passages in John, people will continue to sin, but this does not mean that they remain under a Curse. Why? The Purpose of Christ is to redeem us of this Curse, and when subsequent sin occurs, His death upon the cross has paid the price for those sins. Thus, we are considered made Right with God, not by whether or not we are physically perfect, but because Christ presents us to God as Spiritually perfect. When we sin, we have an advocate who is Christ (also taught in 1 John):

So it is possible for a Christian to sin? I am not looking for justification for sinning, but rather an explanation for why it still occurs.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I offered no thoughts because I don't know the answer to the question. What does "old things have passed away" refer to if other verses discuss a Christian's sin? My goal is merely understanding so that I can work out things in my own life. Your suspicious assessment of my motives is somewhat hurtful.

I'm really sorry that that person had to come at you like that. Unfortunately, "christian" forums are pretty cut-throat. Go figure.

 

[studentoftheword]

How do you reconcile these two passages? One says the old things have passed away, and the other says that sin still lives within.

FW_KeyboardMan ------your scriptures you Quoted are addressing 2 separate Issues

I say --------It is very hard to reconcile Scripture by just using 1 or 2 verses ---you need to read the Chapter and find out what the Context is of that piece of scripture as Scripture will always answer Scripture --------

In Romans Paul is speaking about the Law and how we are Released from the death of the Law -----The law was given to increase sin an to show the Israelite's that they needed a Saviour -----the wages of Sin is eternal death

The Israelite's were disobeying God and they themselves ask for some rules to follow and God gave then the 10 Commandments that no man could keep ----so the Curse was in place ----there was no Blessings in place -as no man could keep any of the laws ---the law brought Spiritual death -----before the law was given there was a chance for eternal life -----after the law all were under the curse of the law ----- Jesus came to release us from the Curse of the laws by keeping it ---Jesus is the only one who kept all 613 laws -----and by that released us from the curse after he died


In 2 Cotinthians ----Paul is addressing our Reconciliation back to God -----

When we receive Jesus as our Lord ---we are Adapted back into God's family Spiritually -------our SPIRIT ONLY is renewed and we are now ready for Spiritual life instead of death -------WE Still are in the Flesh and so we still have the Nature to sin and WE WILL SIN _____but God does not Charge Sin to us any more ------

You may not know but there are 2 deaths for unbelievers ---Physical death and then Spiritual death which is eternal separation from God forever -------believers die physically and are with God in His Spiritual realm ----

2 Corinthians 5 -------Verse 19 ------
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Our SPIRIT MAN is HOLY ---SANCTIFIED we are heaven bound ---our Past --Present and Future sins are forgiven by God -------

We will have our Sin Nature till we die -----but we have now Grace who is Jesus to call on to give us strength to resist the sin -----Satan is still god of this world and is able to tempt us into sin but the more you mature in Christ the less you will sin as you want to please God and will do all you can not to sin ---------Read the 2 scriptures you quoted ------below

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is Romans 7 NIV
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[b]

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

!5 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


2 Corinthians 5 NIV

The Ministry of Reconciliation

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Hope this helps some for clarification -------

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

So it is possible for a Christian to sin? I am not looking for justification for sinning, but rather an explanation for why it still occurs.

Well, that's a great question. Most say yes, but then there are a few who say that they "never sin."

Paul wrote:

1 John 2:1 NIV - "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Once the Curse of the Lord has been cut away as though human foreskin (it isn't coming back), that individual still must contend with their memories. For example, I was once completely addicted to not only pornography, but actual sex with many women. I have horrible sexual relationships and I have had a couple that were incredible. How am I to forget these things? And no, God does not guarantee the instant rubberstamp change of heart regarding things of this world. Once the Sin Nature is cut out, we still like our buzz from alcohol, or cannabis, even sex . . . but we will learn to overcome them. Some of those sinful abuses that we once had will be cured perhaps instantly, but as said, not all . . . for there is no guarantee of such.

2nd Corinthians 3:14-18 shows us that over time, we will begin to reflect the Glory of Christ more and more:

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

Interestingly enough, the Veil mentioned above is the Curse of the Sinful Nature. Did you see how Paul teaches that in Christ it is removed? It is removed like the foreskin of a man, and it is the Work of Christ. When the Curse (the Veil) is removed, our hearts become unhardened, and thus we can see the Truth. Go back and read the story of Moses and the Veil . . . it will make more sense (now).

But it is the last part that answers your question. Paul states, clearly, that we will be Transformed, becoming more and more like Christ . . . we are changed!

This is the Effect of Christ. Remember those THREE Elements?

1) The Purpose of Christ
2) Work of Christ
3) The Effect of Christ

The Effect of Christ is that we will change to reflect His Glory . . . His sense of Holy Perfection. But, before we can change, we must understand the Purpose of Christ, and then ask Jesus to conduct His Holy Work upon our hearts.

And now you can better understand Romans 12:2, for it also shows that there is an expected result of the Work of Christ:

Romans 12:2 NLT - "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

Until we undergo the Circumcision of Christ, Romans 12:2 will be an impossibility to reach and obtain. And did you note what is written above about the Will of God? It isn't until we receive the Circumcision of Christ that we can then learn and then know the will of God.

So here are the Three Elements of Christ put together as one short example of the True Gospel - (John 3:16-17 - Galatians 3:13 - Colossians 2:11 & 13 - Romans 12:1-2):

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice--the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

 

[Blik]

So it is possible for a Christian to sin? I am not looking for justification for sinning, but rather an explanation for why it still occurs.

If you read 2 Cor. 5:17 and not let the Lord finish his sentence by reading the rest of what the Lord tells us, then you could think the Lord thinks he can redo our human body that was born in sin to make us a body that cannot sin. If you let the Lord finish his sentence, then you find that it is only through Christ we are sinless, and we are implored to be reconciled through Christ.