2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified Bible)

[Red33]

THORN - skolops

originally denoted "anything pointed or with a point," e.g., "a stake;" in Hellenistic vernacular, "a thorn" (so the Sept., in Num 33:55; Eze 28:24; Hsa 2:6), 2Cr 12:7, of the Apostle's "thorn in the flesh;" his language indicates that it was physical, painful, humiliating; it was also the effect of Divinely permitted Satanic antagonism; the verbs rendered "that I should (not) be exalted overmuch" (RV) and "to buffet" are in the present tense, signifying recurrent action, indicating a constantly repeated attack. Lightfoot interprets it as "a stake driven through the flesh," and Ramsay agrees with this.

 

[Abiding]

THORN - skolops

originally denoted "anything pointed or with a point," e.g., "a stake;" in Hellenistic vernacular, "a thorn" (so the Sept., in Num 33:55; Eze 28:24; Hsa 2:6), 2Cr 12:7, of the Apostle's "thorn in the flesh;" his language indicates that it was physical, painful, humiliating; it was also the effect of Divinely permitted Satanic antagonism; the verbs rendered "that I should (not) be exalted overmuch" (RV) and "to buffet" are in the present tense, signifying recurrent action, indicating a constantly repeated attack. Lightfoot interprets it as "a stake driven through the flesh," and Ramsay agrees with this.

yes, this is the intended meaning

 

[zone]

THORN - skolops

originally denoted "anything pointed or with a point," e.g., "a stake;" in Hellenistic vernacular, "a thorn" (so the Sept., in Num 33:55; Eze 28:24; Hsa 2:6), 2Cr 12:7, of the Apostle's "thorn in the flesh;" his language indicates that it was physical, painful, humiliating; it was also the effect of Divinely permitted Satanic antagonism; the verbs rendered "that I should (not) be exalted overmuch" (RV) and "to buffet" are in the present tense, signifying recurrent action, indicating a constantly repeated attack. Lightfoot interprets it as "a stake driven through the flesh," and Ramsay agrees with this.

"his language indicates that it was physical, painful, humiliating"
inconclusive.

~

i agree with The Voice of the Martyrs on this one, i think.

Wednesday, April 15, 2009

What was Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”?

The conjectures as to what Paul’s "thorn in the flesh" (2 Cor. 12:7) was are legion. Many, if not most, commentators believe that was a physical ailment. However, I think that the context in which this verse appears suggests quite a different answer, one that can provide tremendous encouragement to persecuted Christians.

The most extensive of all of Paul’s description of his afflictions for Christ’s sake is found in 2 Corinthians 11:23-12:10. It is at this point that Paul directly challenges those in Corinth who deny his credentials as a true apostle of God.

In 1 Corinthians, he has shown how God’s weakness in the cross of His Son, a weakness of suffering and self-sacrifice turned out to be God’s strength and power. He has maintained that his sufferings are linked with Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-11) and it is the world that rejects the method by which God has chosen to reconcile the world to Himself and sees only the shame and apparent defeat. In contrast, those who are being saved see it as fragrant offering to God (2:14-17).

Paul contended that his sufferings are necessary to manifest the life of Christ (4:5-15) and argued that the messengers of the gospel must live lives in accordance to the gospel (6:1-13). Christ died on the cross for man’s salvation and cross-bearing messengers are those who will bear this message to mankind. God’s methods are consistent with His message.

Yet, the Corinthians persist in listening to teachers whose message and methods are at odds with the cross of Christ. In verse 23 Paul asks, "Are they servants of Christ?" The Greek wording used here does not concede that he believes that the "super-apostles" really are servants of God. The wording is more: "Servants of God are they? Well, if they are such (and it would be absurd to say such), I am more!"

The term "servant of Christ" is reminiscent of Isaiah's reference to the suffering Servant and the servants of the suffering Servant. One cannot call himself a servant of God if he denies the need to sacrifice and suffer for Christ’s sake. Suffering defines the servant of God.

In verse 23-30, Paul spells out the credentials he points to that prove that he is a servant of God:

…with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.[1]
​

Then in verse 31-32, Paul gives an example of the things that he will boast of

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands" (2 Cor. 11:23-33).
​

As we noted in our study of Acts, immediately following his conversion, Paul began to preach the gospel. As a result, a plot to kill him was hatched and he was forced to flee Damascus through a hole in the wall in a basket (Acts 9:25). This experience drove home to him an incredible truth that he never forgot.

Paul might have been tempted to feel proud of his revelation from Christ, his dramatic testimony of conversion, from persecutor to messenger of God. But then he remembers that his first attempt to share the gospel resulted in his being lowered out of a window in the wall in the middle of the night in a basket that was probably used to dump rubbish outside of the wall. Paul learned that this is what the messenger of God can expect!

What did you expect following Christ would be like when you first started following Him?
In chapter 12:1, Paul goes further. The super-apostles boast of the great visions that God has given them. "Well," says Paul, "let me break a 14 year silence and tell you about visions and revelations from God that I have received."

I suspect that at this point, the Corinthians would have leaned forward in eager anticipation of what Paul was about to write. This was the kind of message that they liked to listen to.

Paul refuses to go into too many details, however. He talks about having received a vision of heaven in verses 2-5, but Paul is clearly embarrassed at having to boast at all (verse1). He refers to himself as "a man in Christ" (in the third person) in order to emphasize that receiving this vision did not make him any special type of Christian.

All that Paul feels comfortable boasting about is his weaknesses (verse 5). And so he immediately discredits the wonderful vision that God had given him in verse 7: "So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated" (2 Cor. 12:7)

The Thorn in the Flesh
Given what Paul has just discussed in the passages just prior to this verse and that which he will refer to again in verse 10; a context of opposition and persecution for the sake of Christ, I would suggest that in verse 7-10 that Paul has not changed topics. He is still talking about persecution.

The early church theologian Chrysostom took the term "Satan" in its general Hebrew sense of "adversary", and understood this "messenger of Satan" by which he was buffeted to signify "Alexander the coppersmith, the party of Hymeneus and Philetas, and all the adversaries of the Word, those who contended with him and fought against him, those that cast him into prison, those that beat him, that led him away to death; for they did Satan's business".[2] Augustine, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret, Photius, and Theophylact and other early church fathers also saw this in the same light.[3]

More recently, R.V.G. Tasker wrote in regards to this passage "As there is nothing which tends to elate a Christian evangelist so much as the enjoyment of spiritual experiences, and as there is nothing so calculated to deflate the spiritual pride which may follow them as the opposition he encounters while preaching the Word, it is not unlikely that Chyrsostom’s interpretation is nearer the truth than any other."[4]

However we understand it, the fact is that this "messenger of Satan" was sent by God; Satan has only a limited freedom of action. God is ultimately in control. Nothing comes into the life of the believer that does not first pass through the sovereign hands of God.

That is not to say that Paul did not want this suffering removed from his life:

Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (12:8-9a).

How exactly God said this to Paul, we are not told. The use of the perfect tense here, however, is illuminating, indicating that this was a past action with continuing results. In other words, what God told Paul regarding His grace being sufficient is still true for him at the time at which he is writing this letter. This was God's answer to Paul's prayer then and it still stands. And it is not a matter of accepting "second best." In Paul's mind, God’s grace in the midst of affliction is just as much an answer to prayer as deliverance because he declares, "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong" (2 Cor. 12:9b-10).

The key word here is, of course, "for the sake of Christ." Paul did not purposely go seeking for persecution. His only preoccupation was the cause of Christ, the spreading of the gospel, and these sufferings came to him as consequences of his pursuit after the purposes of God. There is nothing special in suffering for the sake of suffering. Suffering and persecution are only the inevitable results of spreading the gospel in a world that is hostile to God, the gospel, and His messengers.

Persecution reminds us who we belong to and proves that we truly are messengers of God.

http://theologyofpersecution.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-was-pauls-thorn-in-flesh_7683.html

~

and the OT references to troublesome people as thorns still fits.
zone.

 

[Red33]

"his language indicates that it was physical, painful, humiliating"
inconclusive.

~

i agree with The Voice of the Martyrs on this one, i think.

Wednesday, April 15, 2009

What was Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”?

The conjectures as to what Paul’s "thorn in the flesh" (2 Cor. 12:7) was are legion. Many, if not most, commentators believe that was a physical ailment. However, I think that the context in which this verse appears suggests quite a different answer, one that can provide tremendous encouragement to persecuted Christians.

The most extensive of all of Paul’s description of his afflictions for Christ’s sake is found in 2 Corinthians 11:23-12:10. It is at this point that Paul directly challenges those in Corinth who deny his credentials as a true apostle of God.

In 1 Corinthians, he has shown how God’s weakness in the cross of His Son, a weakness of suffering and self-sacrifice turned out to be God’s strength and power. He has maintained that his sufferings are linked with Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-11) and it is the world that rejects the method by which God has chosen to reconcile the world to Himself and sees only the shame and apparent defeat. In contrast, those who are being saved see it as fragrant offering to God (2:14-17).

Paul contended that his sufferings are necessary to manifest the life of Christ (4:5-15) and argued that the messengers of the gospel must live lives in accordance to the gospel (6:1-13). Christ died on the cross for man’s salvation and cross-bearing messengers are those who will bear this message to mankind. God’s methods are consistent with His message.

Yet, the Corinthians persist in listening to teachers whose message and methods are at odds with the cross of Christ. In verse 23 Paul asks, "Are they servants of Christ?" The Greek wording used here does not concede that he believes that the "super-apostles" really are servants of God. The wording is more: "Servants of God are they? Well, if they are such (and it would be absurd to say such), I am more!"

The term "servant of Christ" is reminiscent of Isaiah's reference to the suffering Servant and the servants of the suffering Servant. One cannot call himself a servant of God if he denies the need to sacrifice and suffer for Christ’s sake. Suffering defines the servant of God.

In verse 23-30, Paul spells out the credentials he points to that prove that he is a servant of God:

…with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.[1]
​

Then in verse 31-32, Paul gives an example of the things that he will boast of

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands" (2 Cor. 11:23-33).
​

As we noted in our study of Acts, immediately following his conversion, Paul began to preach the gospel. As a result, a plot to kill him was hatched and he was forced to flee Damascus through a hole in the wall in a basket (Acts 9:25). This experience drove home to him an incredible truth that he never forgot.

Paul might have been tempted to feel proud of his revelation from Christ, his dramatic testimony of conversion, from persecutor to messenger of God. But then he remembers that his first attempt to share the gospel resulted in his being lowered out of a window in the wall in the middle of the night in a basket that was probably used to dump rubbish outside of the wall. Paul learned that this is what the messenger of God can expect!

What did you expect following Christ would be like when you first started following Him?
In chapter 12:1, Paul goes further. The super-apostles boast of the great visions that God has given them. "Well," says Paul, "let me break a 14 year silence and tell you about visions and revelations from God that I have received."

I suspect that at this point, the Corinthians would have leaned forward in eager anticipation of what Paul was about to write. This was the kind of message that they liked to listen to.

Paul refuses to go into too many details, however. He talks about having received a vision of heaven in verses 2-5, but Paul is clearly embarrassed at having to boast at all (verse1). He refers to himself as "a man in Christ" (in the third person) in order to emphasize that receiving this vision did not make him any special type of Christian.

All that Paul feels comfortable boasting about is his weaknesses (verse 5). And so he immediately discredits the wonderful vision that God had given him in verse 7: "So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated" (2 Cor. 12:7)

The Thorn in the Flesh
Given what Paul has just discussed in the passages just prior to this verse and that which he will refer to again in verse 10; a context of opposition and persecution for the sake of Christ, I would suggest that in verse 7-10 that Paul has not changed topics. He is still talking about persecution.

The early church theologian Chrysostom took the term "Satan" in its general Hebrew sense of "adversary", and understood this "messenger of Satan" by which he was buffeted to signify "Alexander the coppersmith, the party of Hymeneus and Philetas, and all the adversaries of the Word, those who contended with him and fought against him, those that cast him into prison, those that beat him, that led him away to death; for they did Satan's business".[2] Augustine, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret, Photius, and Theophylact and other early church fathers also saw this in the same light.[3]

More recently, R.V.G. Tasker wrote in regards to this passage "As there is nothing which tends to elate a Christian evangelist so much as the enjoyment of spiritual experiences, and as there is nothing so calculated to deflate the spiritual pride which may follow them as the opposition he encounters while preaching the Word, it is not unlikely that Chyrsostom’s interpretation is nearer the truth than any other."[4]

However we understand it, the fact is that this "messenger of Satan" was sent by God; Satan has only a limited freedom of action. God is ultimately in control. Nothing comes into the life of the believer that does not first pass through the sovereign hands of God.

That is not to say that Paul did not want this suffering removed from his life:

Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (12:8-9a).

How exactly God said this to Paul, we are not told. The use of the perfect tense here, however, is illuminating, indicating that this was a past action with continuing results. In other words, what God told Paul regarding His grace being sufficient is still true for him at the time at which he is writing this letter. This was God's answer to Paul's prayer then and it still stands. And it is not a matter of accepting "second best." In Paul's mind, God’s grace in the midst of affliction is just as much an answer to prayer as deliverance because he declares, "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong" (2 Cor. 12:9b-10).

The key word here is, of course, "for the sake of Christ." Paul did not purposely go seeking for persecution. His only preoccupation was the cause of Christ, the spreading of the gospel, and these sufferings came to him as consequences of his pursuit after the purposes of God. There is nothing special in suffering for the sake of suffering. Suffering and persecution are only the inevitable results of spreading the gospel in a world that is hostile to God, the gospel, and His messengers.

Persecution reminds us who we belong to and proves that we truly are messengers of God.

http://theologyofpersecution.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-was-pauls-thorn-in-flesh_7683.html

~

and the OT references to troublesome people as thorns still fits.
zone.

Even if this 'messenger of Satan' was a 'troublesome person' (as you suggest) they were a messenger OF SATAN and it makes no difference if God permitted or sent this messenger Himself. The messenger was 'of' Satan. This points to Satan as present, usable for the purposes of God and active in his diabolical plot to hinder the gospel and the righteousness of God. God permitted Satan to bring trouble upon Job but was not permitted to take his life. God used this 'messenger' to keep Paul from 'exalting himself above measure' and that was for his sake and for the sake of the gospel that he was ordained by God through grace to preach to the Gentiles.

The thing that would not work with the 'amillennial' view and the binding of Satan (Rev 20:1-3) is the prospect that Satan could be active through 'demons', or through his 'ministers' of righteousness or through these troublesome people (like the Pharisee crowd), they would be motivated by Satan as the god of this world system or the 'cosmocrater' of (Eph 6:12) in this present evil world (Gal 1:4). It is not outlandish to consider this 'messenger of Satan' to be an evil influence through a demon or disembodied spirit that was a thorn in his flesh (outward and not possession) that would continually harass Paul by 'buffeting' and beating him randomly.

This next paragraph or two is MY OPINION ONLY.

I believe that the thorn or stake in Paul's flesh, that he prayed to God to depart and leave him, had to do with being constantly hammered and reminded in a condemning way, by the accuser of the brethren, what he had done to the church and believers in having them slaughtered as a Pharisee before his conversion. This messenger (singular) of Satan would not leave him alone and constantly buffeted him on this matter and it bothered Paul because of the revelation and knowledge that Christ had given him concerning the church that he was now a part of as an apostle. This thorn was not personal sin on Paul's part but it related to his treatment of those that now were his brethren who were in such close identification to the Lord, when testified by Christ on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:4).

When Paul asked the Lord three times to have this thorn removed, God used it to put Paul in a place where he would have to receive grace in the midst of being buffeted and that would have to be sufficient for Paul and he would have to learn to be content with that, though it was accusatory and antagonistic and humiliating for Paul's flesh. Paul may have done to believers what he did in ignorance, BUT he still did it and the damage it caused for the church was apparent and now the church would have to accept all this revelation from Paul (their great persecutor) that was not written in the scriptures yet because it concerned the mystery of the church and the body and bride of Christ.

 

[Abiding]

context about glorying in the flesh was started about chapter 11:16-12:10 and in ch11:30 all that happenned to him is considered infirmities. Certianly his baggage im sure was used against him but i think his point was he prayed for relief from the trials Jesus told him from the start hed have to face...and as Jesus did in the garden even when He knew His mission...Paul did..nevertheless thy will be done Paul is saying and decided to glory in his infirmities.

Maybe a larger view is lost trying to pinpoint a single thing.

 

[zone]

Even if this 'messenger of Satan' was a 'troublesome person' (as you suggest) they were a messenger OF SATAN and it makes no difference if God permitted or sent this messenger Himself. The messenger was 'of' Satan. This points to Satan as present, usable for the purposes of God and active in his diabolical plot to hinder the gospel and the righteousness of God. God permitted Satan to bring trouble upon Job but was not permitted to take his life. God used this 'messenger' to keep Paul from 'exalting himself above measure' and that was for his sake and for the sake of the gospel that he was ordained by God through grace to preach to the Gentiles.

The thing that would not work with the 'amillennial' view and the binding of Satan (Rev 20:1-3) is the prospect that Satan could be active through 'demons', or through his 'ministers' of righteousness or through these troublesome people (like the Pharisee crowd), they would be motivated by Satan as the god of this world system or the 'cosmocrater' of (Eph 6:12) in this present evil world (Gal 1:4). It is not outlandish to consider this 'messenger of Satan' to be an evil influence through a demon or disembodied spirit that was a thorn in his flesh (outward and not possession) that would continually harass Paul by 'buffeting' and beating him randomly.

This next paragraph or two is MY OPINION ONLY.

I believe that the thorn or stake in Paul's flesh, that he prayed to God to depart and leave him, had to do with being constantly hammered and reminded in a condemning way, by the accuser of the brethren, what he had done to the church and believers in having them slaughtered as a Pharisee before his conversion. This messenger (singular) of Satan would not leave him alone and constantly buffeted him on this matter and it bothered Paul because of the revelation and knowledge that Christ had given him concerning the church that he was now a part of as an apostle. This thorn was not personal sin on Paul's part but it related to his treatment of those that now were his brethren who were in such close identification to the Lord, when testified by Christ on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:4).

When Paul asked the Lord three times to have this thorn removed, God used it to put Paul in a place where he would have to receive grace in the midst of being buffeted and that would have to be sufficient for Paul and he would have to learn to be content with that, though it was accusatory and antagonistic and humiliating for Paul's flesh. Paul may have done to believers what he did in ignorance, BUT he still did it and the damage it caused for the church was apparent and now the church would have to accept all this revelation from Paul (their great persecutor) that was not written in the scriptures yet because it concerned the mystery of the church and the body and bride of Christ.

hi Redster, interesting theory.
we i agree that the problem was not a physical ailment, but a persecution of sorts: you seem to think it was a demon, i say one of satan's workmen (among whom we all once lived, following the prince of darkness).

re: the Millennium:

there is only ONE thing he is restrained from doing according to Rev 20:

"to keep him from deceiving the nations (gentiles) anymore"

until just prior to the Second Advent when he is released:

"to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle."

Rev 20 says ZERO about sin, killing, roaring lion, nothing.

he is restrained from one thing: DECEIVING THE NATIONS...but that will come to an end when God sends strong delusion on the whole world....when satan is released for his short space (2 Thess 2)

~

what was life like for gentiles (nations) concerning the true God before Christ came?

Micah 4:5
All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Acts 14
We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. 16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

Acts 17
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Red33]

Zone,

According to your understanding, before the ascension, Satan was able to deceive the nations. What does this mean to deceive the nations? Was Satan able to blind the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4) and now being bound is not able to do that in the nations that are established upon the earth? Is this referring to the government of nations that are now not being able to be deceived, that the people of these nations are subject to as citizens of their country?

Do believers and disciples of Christ have unlimited and unfettered access to preach the gospel in the uttermost parts of the earth without being hindered by thrones, by dominions, by principalities and powers in (Col 1:16)? Are not believers, who are in the field, constantly having to wrestle with the powers to be that oppose the gospel and the authority of the word of God? Have not these thrones, dominions, principalities and powers been subject to the guidance and direction of the god of this world system through the lust and affections of the flesh, to do those things that are contrary to the will and ways of God and His righteousness throughout the nations of the earth?

The Soviet Union was not open to the gospel or even to the dispensing of Bibles until the late 1970's (with few exceptions), and before then the door was closed as it was in most of the communist satellite countries. Missionaries were risking being imprisoned for smuggling Bibles at check points. Many times missionaries have had to pray for decades for God to open doors into certain nations of the world because of the great blindness and deception that occupied the minds and hearts of those who did not believe and had no light from God in their land for centuries.

Would men like Richard Wurmbrand, who have suffered much, be able to help us understand Satan's undertaking in these countries to hinder and keep out the gospel of Christ from the ears of those who have not heard? Can you be absolutely sure that Satan had nothing to do with the religions of the world that have been established over the last 2,000 years, having initiated trends of thinking to formulate cultures and systems of religious thought and expression that transgress God's established authority through the His word and to discredit the church, any way he can devise, which is the pillar and ground of the truth?

We have a viable enemy that we are not to be ignorant of his devices nor are we to give place to him in this present evil world. He is the god of this world system and all the nations of it. He is the prince and power of the air and will seek out and deceive all and any that will give him place to do so. He is a murderer from the beginning, the father of all lies, the accuser of the brethren, he is a tempter, a slanderer, one who is our adversary that beguiles as the wicked one. To believe that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations at this present time of the church age, in my opinion, is a subtle deception in and of itself.

 

[zone]

Zone,

According to your understanding, before the ascension, Satan was able to deceive the nations. What does this mean to deceive the nations? Was Satan able to blind the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4) and now being bound is not able to do that in the nations that are established upon the earth? Is this referring to the government of nations that are now not being able to be deceived, that the people of these nations are subject to as citizens of their country?

Do believers and disciples of Christ have unlimited and unfettered access to preach the gospel in the uttermost parts of the earth without being hindered by thrones, by dominions, by principalities and powers in (Col 1:16)? Are not believers, who are in the field, constantly having to wrestle with the powers to be that oppose the gospel and the authority of the word of God? Have not these thrones, dominions, principalities and powers been subject to the guidance and direction of the god of this world system through the lust and affections of the flesh, to do those things that are contrary to the will and ways of God and His righteousness throughout the nations of the earth?

The Soviet Union was not open to the gospel or even to the dispensing of Bibles until the late 1970's (with few exceptions), and before then the door was closed as it was in most of the communist satellite countries. Missionaries were risking being imprisoned for smuggling Bibles at check points. Many times missionaries have had to pray for decades for God to open doors into certain nations of the world because of the great blindness and deception that occupied the minds and hearts of those who did not believe and had no light from God in their land for centuries.

Would men like Richard Wurmbrand, who have suffered much, be able to help us understand Satan's undertaking in these countries to hinder and keep out the gospel of Christ from the ears of those who have not heard? Can you be absolutely sure that Satan had nothing to do with the religions of the world that have been established over the last 2,000 years, having initiated trends of thinking to formulate cultures and systems of religious thought and expression that transgress God's established authority through the His word and to discredit the church, any way he can devise, which is the pillar and ground of the truth?

We have a viable enemy that we are not to be ignorant of his devices nor are we to give place to him in this present evil world. He is the god of this world system and all the nations of it. He is the prince and power of the air and will seek out and deceive all and any that will give him place to do so. He is a murderer from the beginning, the father of all lies, the accuser of the brethren, he is a tempter, a slanderer, one who is our adversary that beguiles as the wicked one. To believe that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations at this present time of the church age, in my opinion, is a subtle deception in and of itself.

Redster...
why don't you just listen to a few good sermons and be a Berean?
you can always go back to Scofield if you want.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/MP3-Audio--Multimedia/Doctrine-and-Theology/Eschatology/Riddlebarger-on-Amillennialism-101/

 

[Red33]

Redster...
why don't you just listen to a few good sermons and be a Berean?
you can always go back to Scofield if you want.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/...chatology/Riddlebarger-on-Amillennialism-101/

You do know that it is always your option to respond to any of the posts that are addressed to you and I would never personally demand answers from you in anyway. However, your response here is not a good one and your convictions are very weak, especially when you make strong reference to others having influence (like Schofield and others) and by that take away individuality from believers. You have never given a clear answer as to what deceiving the nations means to you and how can you not see or discern the many strategies that Satan has utilized over the last 2,000 years (or even the last 100 years) to deceive the nations and prevail against the church.

You have refused to receive many of the scriptures that testify of Satan being active in the present world that is made up of nations and kingdoms on the earth and any influence and dominion that he has had over them and how they govern themselves and the people that are subject to their domain. This line of thinking is something you reject as having any present application, therefore it does not represent any benefit for the believer as part of their faith that comes from the whole counsel of God.

There will be a period of 1,000 years that Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3) and that will take place AFTER the second coming of Christ, who will throw the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and will slay the remnant of those that received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast (Rev 19). If any believe otherwise, they are objectively, categorically and chronologically in error and it does not matter whether they are a Berean or a dispensationalist or not.

 

[zone]

You do know that it is always your option to respond to any of the posts that are addressed to you and I would never personally demand answers from you in anyway. However, your response here is not a good one and your convictions are very weak, especially when you make strong reference to others having influence (like Schofield and others) and by that take away individuality from believers. You have never given a clear answer as to what deceiving the nations means to you and how can you not see or discern the many strategies that Satan has utilized over the last 2,000 years (or even the last 100 years) to deceive the nations and prevail against the church.

You have refused to receive many of the scriptures that testify of Satan being active in the present world that is made up of nations and kingdoms on the earth and any influence and dominion that he has had over them and how they govern themselves and the people that are subject to their domain. This line of thinking is something you reject as having any present application, therefore it does not represent any benefit for the believer as part of their faith that comes from the whole counsel of God.

There will be a period of 1,000 years that Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3) and that will take place AFTER the second coming of Christ, who will throw the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and will slay the remnant of those that received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast (Rev 19). If any believe otherwise, they are objectively, categorically and chronologically in error and it does not matter whether they are a Berean or a dispensationalist or not.

Red.
i have 3500 posts stacked up.
some of them deal directly with this subject, and a few are direct discussions i have had with you.

i've addressed it from every angle, used scripture, posted innumerable resources, so to say i am avoiding it is so far from the truth it isn't funny.

i'm tackling it head-on...it's perhaps yourself who will not consider the alternative.

here's EVERYTHING Rev 20 says about the binding of satan:

to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

now you've ranged all over scripture looking for the lists of theings he DOES and CAN do, without yourself asking what is meant by that single phrase, in that singe parenthetical chapter which uses the symbol language of the VISION). you're asking me to prove why, if satan is bound, he is doing things Rev 20 doesn't even address.

i've repeatedly offered you the work of excellent scholars (like Riddlebarger) who were at one time Dispensationalsits. as they exegete the passages, they also examine the alternative interpretations. i've posted hundreds of critical analyses of dispensationalism - where it came from and what it means)...but you won't consider them.

yet you want me to keep addressing the same questions again and again. you seem to think i have concoted this idea on my own Red. which really isn't reasonable.

the problem is that dispensational theology affects every single part of how one approaches the scriptures, including the Gospel itself, since it sees two covenants and two peoples of God in place at one time. this most certainly impacts the Gospel message for jews, and evangelism in general, since one of the new believer's first question will be : what's it going to be like at the end?

if the presupposition is wrong, the entire explanation from that moment forward will be wrong. and if that is the case, i have to wonder who is being hurt by a refuse to spend a few sleepless night questioning what you believe ad why you believe it.

dispensationalism is so far removed from what the Bible actually says, it's extremely difficult to "fix" or come to agreement on a given point (i.e.: Rev 20, Romans 11, Dan 9) when two people are reading the Bible as if they were two different books.

again, i ask that you please just take one day and consider men of God who have abandoned dispensationalism, and see what they say about why they did so.

then we can talk based on a discussion of what they have seen in scripture (and what they have found is NOT in scripture): it may give us some breathing room.
zone.

 

[Red33]

Forget dispensationalism for a minute and just focus on one thing. If Satan is presently bound and is not able to deceive the nations, how was he deceiving the nations prior to being bound? Answer that first to yourself (DO IT!) and then tell me that Satan has had nothing to do with any nation being deceived over the past 2,000 years. Are you going to tell me there is no nation under heaven involved with deception? After all the things that you have written in criticism of others you are not going to consider Satan having the power to presently deceive others including the nations?

I am not a two year old and I understand what deception is about. I see it in people and in my own nation and have for many years and it is much worse in other nations that do not know the living God. Are you going to attribute everything to the flesh without being influenced supernaturally by the prince and power of the air? I don't care what these men teach, if they believe as you do they have abandoned the truth about the great deceiver and the accuser of the brethren and they are willfully being ignorant of a major part of God's whole counsel. That is a dangerous ground to tread and you are treading that ground.

 

[zone]

Forget dispensationalism for a minute and just focus on one thing. If Satan is presently bound and is not able to deceive the nations, how was he deceiving the nations prior to being bound? Answer that first to yourself (DO IT!) and then tell me that Satan has had nothing to do with any nation being deceived over the past 2,000 years. Are you going to tell me there is no nation under heaven involved with deception? After all the things that you have written in criticism of others you are not going to consider Satan having the power to presently deceive others including the nations?

I am not a two year old and I understand what deception is about. I see it in people and in my own nation and have for many years and it is much worse in other nations that do not know the living God. Are you going to attribute everything to the flesh without being influenced supernaturally by the prince and power of the air? I don't care what these men teach, if they believe as you do they have abandoned the truth about the great deceiver and the accuser of the brethren and they are willfully being ignorant of a major part of God's whole counsel. That is a dangerous ground to tread and you are treading that ground.

so, you're unwilling to consider other interprations of scripture that have been mainstream orthodoxy for centuries and centuries (until less than 200 year ago).

and, since you believe i've abandoned the truth; and you refuse to consider you may be wrong, what is there left to say?

Matthew 4.
Jesus Begins to Preach
12 When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he returned to Galilee. 13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— 14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:

15 “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the way to the sea, along the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.”

17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

 

[Red33]

Zone,

The truth in that area has been abandoned and not the finished work of Christ. I will leave it there and not go any furthur.

 

[oncemore]

sorry to say this but in acts 9 when saul (paul) was called by the LORD by the light vs9 he was blinded by light this is the thorn in the flesh that his talking about in 2cor.12. he some times could not see having looked at that light.

 

[Abiding]

Do you mean on the road the Lord sent a messenger of satan ahead to blind and buffet Paul so He could talk to him? seems weird and also out of place since he hadnt recieved any abundance of revelations yet.

 

[AnandaHya]

oncemore, that doesn't make sense. God light is not a messenger of Satan even if it is blinding. God sends someone to heal and teach Paul later in the book of Acts.