2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified Bible)

[zone]

ok that would make sense. the guy was going around trying to pervert the churches with his smooth talking and tell them things that were not revealed to him and claimed to be an apostle of Christ and Paul called him out as a liar but since he was a smoother talker he got people to believe him. The guy also was a mooch that got the churches to feed him and that is why Paul uses the difference between him and Timothy and what the false apostle did and taught.

Paul's Thorn In The Flesh (2nd Cor. 12:7-10)

I think the messengers of Satan that have flesh and most consider to be human as more dangerous then the ones in spirit/demonic form.

ananda, you've made an excellent point, and one i intended to raise, also.

the reference to minsters of satan doesn't mean they are literally demons in human skin coverings (though many are most certainly possessed - recall the woman ("apostle") in the video)...it means they serve the god of this world (satan).

this is why i get kinda frustrated by the continual rebuking of demons and looking to the spirit realm when we have enough trouble watching out for men who are enemies of The Cross, both outside and inside the church. if we can find out who those false apostles and ministers are, or more precisely what their game is: then we have some real practical use for our Gospel armour.

zone.

 

[Laodicea]

The thorn in the flesh was an infirmity not a demon or a messenger of Satan read the surrounding texts to get the context

2 Corinthians 12:5-10
(5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
(6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
(7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Note especially verse 8 where he prays for it to be taken away not he

 

[journey41]

[

quote=Scotth1960;468541]It's not altogether clear from Scripture what this thorn in the flesh was, and what the words "a messenger of Satan" mean. It could have been a human being, not a demon.
It could have been someone who was always bothering Saint Paul and trying to criticize his ministry of Christ. Some people think it was a physical illness, a thorn in the flesh, a bodily disease that was troubling Paul. This is a secondary matter and it really isn't all that important that we have a clear understanding what this means. It's an obscure passage from St. Paul, and St. Peter warns us there are some things in St. Paul which we may not easily understand (2 Peter 3:14-16). God bless us, everyone.

It could of been anything. He could of got sick or heard disturbing news which hindered or scared him, or even had a certain weakness. Could of been lust or swearing, who knows. Whatever it was, it affected his flesh. The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak. He prayed about it and was delivered. Paul is trying to tell us not to think too highly of him, and because of his weakness he didn't feel too proud. His guilt brought him down a few notches, as he was probably starting to feel 'perfect'

We are not perfect yet till Christ comes and makes us perfect. The enemy will always go for our weaknessess. Thats why we have to strive to be perfect, but we cannot be perfect till Christ comes and changes our bodies to spirit. That is our reward. To be like Christ, fully transformed. Goodbye flesh, goodbye sin.

Thorn means sin.

 

[zone]

The thorn in the flesh was an infirmity not a demon or a messenger of Satan read the surrounding texts to get the context

2 Corinthians 12:5-10
(5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
(6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
(7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Note especially verse 8 where he prays for it to be taken away not he

hi Lao.
the IT is the "thorn in his flesh"
since the thorn is not a real thorn, but an Hebraism, it represents something else.

using the word IT concerning the 'thorn' is correct and consistent, but does not negate that the thorn is something other than a real thorn: an infirmity OR any of the other things listed, which include: infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake

whatever the "thorn" was, Paul indeed said it was a messenger of satan, so we shouldn't say it wasn't.

the issue remains (and no one will really ever know this side of eternity) WHAT did the thorn represent?

at one time i settled in my mind it was his eyesight: since the OT references to thorns also mentions the eyes; Paul was struck blind for a time at conversion; and later mentioned failing eyesight:

Galatians 6:11
Notice what large letters I use as I write these closing words in my own handwriting.

i've since lightly accepted (though we can not know) that he was indeed afflicted by a messenger of satan (a man) who pestered and persecuted him (Alexander is mentioned several times).

anyways....that's all i know on the matter.
zone.

 

[Laodicea]

hi Lao.
the IT is the "thorn in his flesh"
since the thorn is not a real thorn, but an Hebraism, it represents something else.

using the word IT concerning the 'thorn' is correct and consistent, but does not negate that the thorn is something other than a real thorn: an infirmity OR any of the other things listed, which include: infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake

whatever the "thorn" was, Paul indeed said it was a messenger of satan, so we shouldn't say it wasn't.

the issue remains (and no one will really ever know this side of eternity) WHAT did the thorn represent?

at one time i settled in my mind it was his eyesight: since the OT references to thorns also mentions the eyes; Paul was struck blind for a time at conversion; and later mentioned failing eyesight:

Galatians 6:11
Notice what large letters I use as I write these closing words in my own handwriting.

i've since lightly accepted (though we can not know) that he was indeed afflicted by a messenger of satan (a man) who pestered and persecuted him (Alexander is mentioned several times).

anyways....that's all i know on the matter.
zone.

G4647
σκόλοψ
skolops
skol'-ops
Perhaps form the base of G4628 and G3700; withered at the front, that is, a point or prickle (figuratively a bodily annoyance or disability): - thorn.

 

[zone]

G4647
σκόλοψ
skolops
skol'-ops
Perhaps form the base of G4628 and G3700; withered at the front, that is, a point or prickle (figuratively a bodily annoyance or disability): - thorn.

ok.
and, i did not check the OT references thorns mentioned in previous posts: they are all different words (though in their contexts boster the idea of an actual annoyance/distress of a disruptive and wicked man). also the suggestion below in the lexicon says this would be Hellenistic vernacular, so again, we have something unique, and not an OT Hebraism.

that particular use of the word thorn is only used the once in 2 Cor 12:7, so i guess it does stand alone.

here's what i've got from the lexicon:

4647. skolops
anything pointed, spec. a stake, thorn​

Original Word: σκόλοψ, οπος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: skolops
Phonetic Spelling: (skol'-ops)
Short Definition: a stake or thorn
Definition: a stake or thorn; fig: a sharp affliction.

4647 skólops – properly, anything with a sharp point, a thorn; (figuratively) an instrument producing pain, discomfort (acute irritation), used only in 2 Cor 12:7.

[4647 (skólops) refers to a thorn (sharp splinter) or even a pointed stake; in Hellenistic vernacular, a thorn (Abbott-Smith). 4647 (skólops) typically means "thorn" in the LXX (WP).]

Perhaps from the base of skelos and optanomai; withered at the front, i.e. A point or prickle (figuratively, a bodily annoyance or disability) -- thorn.

~

nothing here that says definitively infirmity as in sickness or bodily affliction (but nothing that says it is absolutely not).

it says:

Word Origin
a prim. word

~

IF we go ahead and consider what scholars say the primary/primitive origin word MIGHT be from or related to, we have the leg mentioned (skelos), and interestingly the eyes/vision/sight (optanomai)!

Perhaps from the base of skelos and optanomai

to appear​

Original Word: ὀπτάνομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: optanomai
Phonetic Spelling: (op-tan'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I appear, am seen
Definition: I appear, am seen (by), let myself be seen (by).

Cognate: 3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708 (horaō).

[Some forms of Strong's numbering systems designate optomai as 3708.]

Word Origin
from a prim. root op- (cf. horaó)
Definition
to appear
NASB Word Usage
appearing (1).


appear, look, see
A (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of horao; to gaze (i.e. With wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from blepo, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from eido, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while theaomai, and still more emphatically its intensive theoreo, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and skopeo a watching from a distance) -- appear, look, see, shew self.

~

so, perhaps i'll go back to my earlier acceptance that the thorn was likely eyesight.

again: this fits:

Numbers 33:55
"'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.

thanks Lao!
that was FUN!
zone.

 

[AnandaHya]

here is a sermon on the subject. found it interesting...

http://media.theos.org/Steve Gregg/Verse by Verse/40-2 Corinthians/09-2Cor 12-13.mp3

 

[Laodicea]

ok.
and, i did not check the OT references thorns mentioned in previous posts: they are all different words (though in their contexts boster the idea of an actual annoyance/distress of a disruptive and wicked man). also the suggestion below in the lexicon says this would be Hellenistic vernacular, so again, we have something unique, and not an OT Hebraism.

that particular use of the word thorn is only used the once in 2 Cor 12:7, so i guess it does stand alone.

here's what i've got from the lexicon:

4647. skolops
anything pointed, spec. a stake, thorn​

Original Word: σκόλοψ, οπος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: skolops
Phonetic Spelling: (skol'-ops)
Short Definition: a stake or thorn
Definition: a stake or thorn; fig: a sharp affliction.

4647 skólops – properly, anything with a sharp point, a thorn; (figuratively) an instrument producing pain, discomfort (acute irritation), used only in 2 Cor 12:7.

[4647 (skólops) refers to a thorn (sharp splinter) or even a pointed stake; in Hellenistic vernacular, a thorn (Abbott-Smith). 4647 (skólops) typically means "thorn" in the LXX (WP).]

Perhaps from the base of skelos and optanomai; withered at the front, i.e. A point or prickle (figuratively, a bodily annoyance or disability) -- thorn.

~

nothing here that says definitively infirmity as in sickness or bodily affliction (but nothing that says it is absolutely not).

it says:

Word Origin
a prim. word

~

IF we go ahead and consider what scholars say the primary/primitive origin word MIGHT be from or related to, we have the leg mentioned (skelos), and interestingly the eyes/vision/sight (optanomai)!

Perhaps from the base of skelos and optanomai

to appear​

Original Word: ὀπτάνομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: optanomai
Phonetic Spelling: (op-tan'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I appear, am seen
Definition: I appear, am seen (by), let myself be seen (by).

Cognate: 3700 optánomai (or optomai/optanō, likely a later cognate of 3708 /horáō) – become seen (appear). See 3708 (horaō).

[Some forms of Strong's numbering systems designate optomai as 3708.]

Word Origin
from a prim. root op- (cf. horaó)
Definition
to appear
NASB Word Usage
appearing (1).


appear, look, see
A (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of horao; to gaze (i.e. With wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from blepo, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from eido, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while theaomai, and still more emphatically its intensive theoreo, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and skopeo a watching from a distance) -- appear, look, see, shew self.

~

so, perhaps i'll go back to my earlier acceptance that the thorn was likely eyesight.

again: this fits:

Numbers 33:55
"'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.

thanks Lao!
that was FUN!
zone.

I have believed for quite a while that it was his eyesight definitely not a demon we all have an infirmity but even though we need to trust in God through it if we trust in our own abilities to do his work then where is our faith but if we trust in God in our infirmities and do His work then God gets the glory

 

[VW]

[ It could of been anything. He could of got sick or heard disturbing news which hindered or scared him, or even had a certain weakness. Could of been lust or swearing, who knows. Whatever it was, it affected his flesh. The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak. He prayed about it and was delivered. Paul is trying to tell us not to think too highly of him, and because of his weakness he didn't feel too proud. His guilt brought him down a few notches, as he was probably starting to feel 'perfect'

We are not perfect yet till Christ comes and makes us perfect. The enemy will always go for our weaknessess. Thats why we have to strive to be perfect, but we cannot be perfect till Christ comes and changes our bodies to spirit. That is our reward. To be like Christ, fully transformed. Goodbye flesh, goodbye sin.

Thorn means sin.

Yes,

Except we will have bodies, just as Jesus has a body now.

 

[zone]

I have believed for quite a while that it was his eyesight definitely not a demon we all have an infirmity but even though we need to trust in God through it if we trust in our own abilities to do his work then where is our faith but if we trust in God in our infirmities and do His work then God gets the glory

hi Lao.
i just remebered why i had abandoned the eyesight theory: too risky, since Saul was struck blind by JESUS on the road to damascus...so unless there was some other eyesight "thorn" sent by a messenger of satan later, i'm not comfortable with that.

anyways...that's enough for me since we just don't know i enjoyed the work-out tho

 

[Red33]

[ It could of been anything. He could of got sick or heard disturbing news which hindered or scared him, or even had a certain weakness. Could of been lust or swearing, who knows. Whatever it was, it affected his flesh. The spirit is strong but the flesh is weak. He prayed about it and was delivered. Paul is trying to tell us not to think too highly of him, and because of his weakness he didn't feel too proud. His guilt brought him down a few notches, as he was probably starting to feel 'perfect'

We are not perfect yet till Christ comes and makes us perfect. The enemy will always go for our weaknessess. Thats why we have to strive to be perfect, but we cannot be perfect till Christ comes and changes our bodies to spirit. That is our reward. To be like Christ, fully transformed. Goodbye flesh, goodbye sin.

Thorn means sin.

In all the scriptures, never has God been asked by anyone to remove any kind of personal sin from their life. And for those that think this thorn to be sin, who are strict adherents that require repentance of sin, there was no remorse or godly sorrow concerning this thorn nor even a confession of this thorn as sin to God. Paul did not relate this thorn to personal sin of any kind, but referred to it as a thorn in the flesh. This thorn is pictured as a stake with a 'fish type hook' at the end that impales the flesh deep enough so that it cannot be removed and Paul asked three times that 'it' might be depart (or withdraw) from him. Sin has never been associated as something that 'withdraws' from us. There is no record that this thorn was ever taken away from Paul at any time nor was their any guilt associated with this thorn that might indicate sin. THIS THORN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PERSONAL SIN!

The Lord told Paul that His grace would have to be sufficient for his weakness in relationship to this thorn in his flesh. If this thorn was personal sin of any kind, we know that God will not give grace for anyone to remain in sin or to continue in personal sin. There may be weights and besetting sins that we have to lay aside as we run the race but this thorn is not referred as such and it would not depart.

The other two aspects of this fleshly and piercing 'fish hooked' thorn refers to.... it being a messenger of Satan ... and this messenger buffeted Paul with his fists. Paul was receiving a constant beating by this messenger over and over and over to thoroughly buffet him at random and it never stopped no matter how often Paul asked the Lord to remove it that it would no longer beat him up. We know the purpose for this thorn being given and why it was not remove, so the question is...

WHO IS THIS MESSENGER (one who was sent) OF SATAN, THAT WAS THORN IN PAUL'S FLESH, AND HOW DID THIS MESSENGER BUFFET PAUL?

 

[Abiding]

Last but not least what does this teach us:

Why was he given this thorn? To keep Paul from exalting himself! would satan want to keep him from pride?

I was given a thorn in the flesh. Who gave this to him? God did.

When he asked God to take it from him what did God say? ...my grace is suficient

 

[VW]

Last but not least what does this teach us:

Why was he given this thorn? To keep Paul from exalting himself! would satan want to keep him from pride?

I was given a thorn in the flesh. Who gave this to him? God did.

When he asked God to take it from him what did God say? ...my grace is suficient

Amen.

Just as with Job, who received credit? Not the devil. Nope, God received the credit and all the glory.

And Job learned that God is in control, of all things that have to do with His servants.

 

[Red33]

Amen.

Just as with Job, who received credit? Not the devil. Nope, God received the credit and all the glory.

And Job learned that God is in control, of all things that have to do with His servants.

As in the case of Job, his three friends, with great zeal, tried to persuade him that these things that were falling out upon him was because of some kind of sin in his life, when in God's eternal reality He was using Job as a showcase of grace to defeat the counsels of Satan. Those three friends were way off the mark in their advice and did not give Job counsel from the Lord and they were the ones that needed to humble themselves, agree with God and be restored from their folly. They were very spiritual men with great understanding and thought they had discerned the plan of God in Job's life but they missed the mark. They were looking for an opportunity to exploit Job and this was their opportunity to show their great wisdom in the things of God. God was angry with them and told them to make an offering and have Job pray for them and when they did, God did not bless Job's friends but stayed their chastisement for their folly and blessed Job by restoring him to his brethren and family and with double what was taken from him and the Lord God was magnified through the life of Job, a man that was perfect and upright, one that feared God and eschewed evil.

 

[mpaper345]

God told the preacher to not get lifted up in pride or he will fall to the condemnation of the devil,which can happen to a person if they develop a big congregation and are well respected,to where they start giving themselves glory uplifting themselves as something special,and not realizing that without Jesus they can do nothing,and God getting the glory.

It is like Daniel interpreted king Nebuchadnezzar's dream and told him that God gave him the kingdom on earth that would flourish above the other kingdoms,but one day king Nebuchadnezzar said,look what I built and what I have accomplished with my own hands,so God caused him to be humble until he realized that it is God that gives the kingdom to who He wants,and that is why God said do not rebel against the government that rules a nation,for they cannot prosper unless God allows it.

Paul received so many revelations from God,and spiritual insight,that God did not want Paul to start exalting himself as something special,for then God could not use Paul in that condition to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles,so God allowed Paul to be buffeted to cause him to be humble and not fall in to the same condition that happened to Lucifer which is pride.

 

[journey41]

[

quote=Red33;470827]In all the scriptures, never has God been asked by anyone to remove any kind of personal sin from their life.

The whole message of the NT is an instruction book on how to depart from sin. There has to be grace first, yes, then we have a second chance to remove swearing, fornicating, hating, envying, lying, etc...from our lives so that we can live in the spirit (righteousness)

Galatians 6:7 Be not decieved; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sowes, that shall he also reap.

Peter denied Christ three times, do you think that he did not ask for forgiveness? Do you think that he would of felt proud and perfect?

And for those that think this thorn to be sin,

Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Thorns are the world. Sin. all the pleasures of this world is sin. Doing what the world is doing...Sin.....bearing no fruit which is bringing forth no good deeds, just bad ones, Sin.

who are strict adherents that require repentance of sin, there was no remorse or godly sorrow concerning this thorn nor even a confession of this thorn as sin to God.

If there was no remorse or sorrow from Paul, then why did he acknowledge and ask the Lord to deliver him? This doesn't come from thinking..ooh it's ok.
2 Corinth 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

He only got it in the end.

Paul did not relate this thorn to personal sin of any kind, but referred to it as a thorn in the flesh.

Again, if he thought it wasn't anything that bad, then why did he pray about it. It obviously was not a sin leading to death, but a flaw he has, an annoyance to him.

This thorn is pictured as a stake with a 'fish type hook' at the end that impales the flesh deep enough so that it cannot be removed and Paul asked three times that 'it' might be depart (or withdraw) from him.

Where does it say that a thorn is pictured as a stake with a fish type hook? A thorn to me is like a prickle. You step on it and pull it out cause it hurts our flesh.

Sin has never been associated as something that 'withdraws' from us.

I dont understand what you are saying here?

There is no record that this thorn was ever taken away from Paul at any time nor was their any guilt associated with this thorn that might indicate sin. THIS THORN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PERSONAL SIN!

Yes, I was re-read that verse and I was wrong. God did not let whatever it was depart from him.

You do not know what this thorn Paul had in his flesh was, neither do I because he does not tell us. But we get the meaning above that a thorn is wordly (sin) a worldly pleasure and this thorn was in his flesh. And if it came from a messenger of Satan then it's not good is it, but it's obviously not that bad iether because God said No. My grace is suffiecient for you.

The Lord told Paul that His grace would have to be sufficient for his weakness in relationship to this thorn in his flesh. If this thorn was personal sin of any kind, we know that God will not give grace for anyone to remain in sin or to continue in personal sin.

Just because we are under grace, does not mean that we dont sin anymore. The spirit constantly wars against the flesh. If God answered every prayer of ours and delivered us from every possible kind of sin, then we would be perfect wouldn't we? Why would we then need Christ? Only Christ is perfect, but we have to desire to be perfect. In other words, keep repenting, trying, praying. If you fall down, get back up. Exercise self control. And just when we think we have conquered our particular sin, wow another one pops up. Paul must of been very self controlled, in the spirit and nearly perfect, but God wasn't going to let him be perfect, just in case he got too proud, and Paul realised this. This humbled him.

Paul gives us a clue to what he was going through.
2 Corinth 12: 10 Therefore I take pleasure in INFIRMATIES, in REPROACHES, in NECESSITIES, in PERSECUTIONS, in DISTRESSES for CHRISTS SAKE. for when I am weak, then I am strong.

There may be weights and besetting sins that we have to lay aside as we run the race but this thorn is not referred as such and it would not depart.

yes

The other two aspects of this fleshly and piercing 'fish hooked' thorn refers to.... it being a messenger of Satan ... and this messenger buffeted Paul with his fists. Paul was receiving a constant beating by this messenger over and over and over to thoroughly buffet him at random and it never stopped no matter how often Paul asked the Lord to remove it that it would no longer beat him up.

It doesn't say that he was constantly being beaten by this messenger. It says there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me. He obviously recieved this thorn at his peak. It doesnt mean this thorn was always with him, because it was sent around that time as he was telling the people not to think too highly of him. He was honest, and who knows, they may of started idolising him. He is saying I am a man too, just like you and even though I'm holy, I'm not perfect.

We know the purpose for this thorn being given and why it was not remove, so the question is...

WHO IS THIS MESSENGER (one who was sent) OF SATAN, THAT WAS THORN IN PAUL'S FLESH, AND HOW DID THIS MESSENGER BUFFET PAUL?

[/QUOTE]I think I have already answered this question.

 

[Abiding]

"thorn in the flesh" was a term in their day...didnt mean sin.

 

[AnandaHya]

kind of like "pain in the ....donkey"?

 

[Abiding]

you got it

 

[journey41]

"thorn in the flesh" was a term in their day...didnt mean sin.

[/QUOTE]Yeah, you could be right. I could be wrong. Not going to argue over it!