2 Thessalonians 2
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Rev. 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
In the Harvest Chapter (Rev. 14) we see the Wheat (144,000) who grow with the wicked tares until the end. We also see the Grape Harvest. But the very first Harvest is always the Barley Harvest. That's the Gentile Church, thus we get a FLASHBACK in verse 14 to the pre-trib rapture.
People like you who get hung up on COMINGS really just makes me shake my head. You are trying to overemphasize and WORRY about things that mean very, very little. What Jesus actually does is call us home, whether he does so from Heaven, or visits the edge of our atmosphere is not really relevant to me. But Paul needed to describe Jesus as GRASPING THEM up unto himself via a FORCE. I could care less how he chose to describe that. Firstly, one of these days it's going to register that Paul was Pastorig Churches and thus trying to ADMOMINISH and ENCOURAGE them in the faith, he wasn't sending out "OFFICIAL THUS SAITH THE Lord" Scriptures as you all assume. He was trying to get these new converts to GRASP the Gospel of Jesus Christ in a way that their faith would grow and abound and he had to try and PAINT A PICTURE they could understand. Jesus does come and get us by force, ONE WAY or ANOTHER. We are TAKEN to Heaven by force. If you want to say his voice comes, or he sends the Holy Spirit, WHO CARES? You and those like you want to go to the nth degree on the meaning of n adverb, whilst I could care less. Is the Rapture pre-trib or not a YES, anyone, IMHO, with any iota of End Time Eschatology, can read Rev. 19 see that we return after Marrying Jesus and that the Beast is still on earth when w return, its not even debatable, it's silly tbh. The way I see it, those who cant understand the Rapture's timing are not to be trusted on ANYTHING Eschatlogy related by me if you can't grasp that which IMHO, amounts to 2 = 2 = 4. I truly believe when you get to heaven God's going to shake his head and say BONEHEADED AND STIFFNECKED. And yes, it grates on me that people can't see a simple concept. PUT OFF YOUR TUNNEL VISION and just rely on TIMING TELLS. Its all in the timing. Nothing works but Pre Trib.
Again, this is just............I can't even............this is mind boggling to me.
Because I have people who argue the exact same thing you are saying above about TWO COMINGS. That it can only be Two Resurrections that happen and TWO SPECIFIC TIME PERIODS. It's not, the First Resurrection covers a full 7 year period of time. The Pre Trib Rapture, with both Jews and Gentiles in Jesus' Church AND the Resurrection of the Jewish Saints AND those Martyrs of the 70th week. Likewise, the TWO ADVENTS have nothing to do with Jesus coming to earth only twice, he might have come here 10 million times, who knows, he's in the midst of us every time we gather. But those who do not understand the TWO ADVENTS do not prevent Jesus from coming u=in between, many times, just do not understand the scriptures.
And Advent means a Coming with a SPECIFIED PURPOSE. The First Advent of Jesus was as a Suffering Servant. NOW, have you ever read Paul speaking about THE ROCK the Jews followed in the desert? That was Jesus !! REMEMBER when Jesus told the Pharisees that he had met Abraham? They said, you are not yet 50 years old, how have you met Abraham, and Jesus told them about I Am that I Am. So, Jesus was I Am that I Am, so Jesus was the Burning Bush, so did Jesus show up BEFORE he came to die in the cross? Yes !! Many times. As a matter of fact almost every time you hear h Prophets speak about SALVATION (Yeshua) in a personal manner, it was about Jesus, unbeknownst unto themselves who he was. The Man in Linen in Dan. 12 was Jesus !! So you still want to try and say there are only TWO COMINGS? It makes zero sense brother. You take a TERM, that's speaking SPECIFICALLY about a Suffering Servant and a Conquering King and YOU DEMAND that there can only be TWO COMINGS !! You just are not dividing the word properly. Sayan slips in with his lies and we go down rabbit holes, then he laughs at us. I have been here many times over my 35 plus years as a Chrostian. Peter was there when he tried to fight for Jesus, Satan deceived him and Jesus told Satan, get behind me Satan. Stop being so TECHNOCRATIC with words. Look at the bigger picture.
I like em.
No, this is a FLASHBACK. No one understands the timing of the book of REvelation as well as I do. PERIOD. Blessing from God.
No, the truth would be you guys admitting that 2 Thess. 2 NEVER ONCE speaks about FAITH but speaks about the Rapture in VERSE 1, the Gathering unto Christ Jesus. You lose the debate right there, lets take a passage that takes about the Rapture and TWIST it to be speaking about the FAITH, even though it is;t, then deb=ny the obvious because we always thought it meant Apostasy. Well, that on you, not me. The passage is very simple and very easy to understand when you know how to divide the word properly. The problem I see is two for, TUNNEL VISION and STIFF NECKS.
I a not interested in YOUR TRUTHS.
In the Harvest Chapter (Rev. 14) we see the Wheat (144,000) who grow with the wicked tares until the end. We also see the Grape Harvest. But the very first Harvest is always the Barley Harvest. That's the Gentile Church, thus we get a FLASHBACK in verse 14 to the pre-trib rapture.
People like you who get hung up on COMINGS really just makes me shake my head. You are trying to overemphasize and WORRY about things that mean very, very little. What Jesus actually does is call us home, whether he does so from Heaven, or visits the edge of our atmosphere is not really relevant to me. But Paul needed to describe Jesus as GRASPING THEM up unto himself via a FORCE. I could care less how he chose to describe that. Firstly, one of these days it's going to register that Paul was Pastorig Churches and thus trying to ADMOMINISH and ENCOURAGE them in the faith, he wasn't sending out "OFFICIAL THUS SAITH THE Lord" Scriptures as you all assume. He was trying to get these new converts to GRASP the Gospel of Jesus Christ in a way that their faith would grow and abound and he had to try and PAINT A PICTURE they could understand. Jesus does come and get us by force, ONE WAY or ANOTHER. We are TAKEN to Heaven by force. If you want to say his voice comes, or he sends the Holy Spirit, WHO CARES? You and those like you want to go to the nth degree on the meaning of n adverb, whilst I could care less. Is the Rapture pre-trib or not a YES, anyone, IMHO, with any iota of End Time Eschatology, can read Rev. 19 see that we return after Marrying Jesus and that the Beast is still on earth when w return, its not even debatable, it's silly tbh. The way I see it, those who cant understand the Rapture's timing are not to be trusted on ANYTHING Eschatlogy related by me if you can't grasp that which IMHO, amounts to 2 = 2 = 4. I truly believe when you get to heaven God's going to shake his head and say BONEHEADED AND STIFFNECKED. And yes, it grates on me that people can't see a simple concept. PUT OFF YOUR TUNNEL VISION and just rely on TIMING TELLS. Its all in the timing. Nothing works but Pre Trib.
Again, this is just............I can't even............this is mind boggling to me.
Because I have people who argue the exact same thing you are saying above about TWO COMINGS. That it can only be Two Resurrections that happen and TWO SPECIFIC TIME PERIODS. It's not, the First Resurrection covers a full 7 year period of time. The Pre Trib Rapture, with both Jews and Gentiles in Jesus' Church AND the Resurrection of the Jewish Saints AND those Martyrs of the 70th week. Likewise, the TWO ADVENTS have nothing to do with Jesus coming to earth only twice, he might have come here 10 million times, who knows, he's in the midst of us every time we gather. But those who do not understand the TWO ADVENTS do not prevent Jesus from coming u=in between, many times, just do not understand the scriptures.
And Advent means a Coming with a SPECIFIED PURPOSE. The First Advent of Jesus was as a Suffering Servant. NOW, have you ever read Paul speaking about THE ROCK the Jews followed in the desert? That was Jesus !! REMEMBER when Jesus told the Pharisees that he had met Abraham? They said, you are not yet 50 years old, how have you met Abraham, and Jesus told them about I Am that I Am. So, Jesus was I Am that I Am, so Jesus was the Burning Bush, so did Jesus show up BEFORE he came to die in the cross? Yes !! Many times. As a matter of fact almost every time you hear h Prophets speak about SALVATION (Yeshua) in a personal manner, it was about Jesus, unbeknownst unto themselves who he was. The Man in Linen in Dan. 12 was Jesus !! So you still want to try and say there are only TWO COMINGS? It makes zero sense brother. You take a TERM, that's speaking SPECIFICALLY about a Suffering Servant and a Conquering King and YOU DEMAND that there can only be TWO COMINGS !! You just are not dividing the word properly. Sayan slips in with his lies and we go down rabbit holes, then he laughs at us. I have been here many times over my 35 plus years as a Chrostian. Peter was there when he tried to fight for Jesus, Satan deceived him and Jesus told Satan, get behind me Satan. Stop being so TECHNOCRATIC with words. Look at the bigger picture.
I like em.
No, this is a FLASHBACK. No one understands the timing of the book of REvelation as well as I do. PERIOD. Blessing from God.
No, the truth would be you guys admitting that 2 Thess. 2 NEVER ONCE speaks about FAITH but speaks about the Rapture in VERSE 1, the Gathering unto Christ Jesus. You lose the debate right there, lets take a passage that takes about the Rapture and TWIST it to be speaking about the FAITH, even though it is;t, then deb=ny the obvious because we always thought it meant Apostasy. Well, that on you, not me. The passage is very simple and very easy to understand when you know how to divide the word properly. The problem I see is two for, TUNNEL VISION and STIFF NECKS.
I a not interested in YOUR TRUTHS.
FreeGrace2 said:
Then just take my challenge and put in parentheses what you believe "coming of our Lord" means. It's that easy.
This isn't the verse in my challenge. It is 2 Thess 2:1. Please try again.
Please don't shake too hard. Could be dangerous. Your phony claim here is hilarious. I'm not hung up on anything, contrary to your opinion.
Well, let me clear some things up for you, since it seems you are just very confused.
The issue of my challenge is 2 Thess 2:1 and what "coming of our Lord" refers to and what "gathered to Him" refers to. Can you explain what these words refer to?
Is this what you think the rapture is about?
And I coudn't care less about opinions.
Well, let's see our challenge about 2 Thess 2:1 and see what works.
I said:
"Heb 9:28 is clear enough for anyone to grasp. "He will appear a second time" means exactly what it says. The first part of the verse references His FIRST appearance on earth. So the math is very easy."
I am very sorry that I boggled your mind with such simple math. I'll try to be more careful in the future. I thought the words "second time" were fairly easy to grasp, in regards to how many appearances Jesus makes on this planet. I guess not so much.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you presume I don't know that. Acts 24:15 makes that point very clearly. As does Acts 24:15.
Well, how about that!! Of course there are only 2 resurrections. The Bible says so, just as Heb 9:28 speaks about Jesus' SECOND appearance.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I won't mention anything about "math" since I know how it affects some. So I color coded this verse for easy grasping.
First, the very large 'a' in purple shows a singular concept, in this case, the subject is about resurrection, which is in red. Then, we see what "both" refers to. In blue we have the saved, and in green we have the unsaved.
I won't ask you to count up how many "both" add up to, but I'm sure it's obvious. So, this verse SAYS there is A resurrection for the saved, and A resurrection for the unsaved. (pssst) That's 2 resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This verse speaks of the resurrection of the saved, of which Christ is the firstfruits. Then followed WHEN HE COMES, by "those who belong to Him".
So, who do you think "belongs to Him"? Great question. Everyone who has placed their faith in the Messiah for salvation. That would be from Adam on.
Huh? Prove it from Scripture. Not someone's opinion, please.
Oh, I see. What you really meant to say is that this "singular resurrection" is phased over 7 years. Nonsense.
Instead, just prove that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. I don't care which "phased" resurrection you want to pick. By proving, I mean having a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Until then, you don't have a point.
To be clear, each member of the Trinity shares all characteristics, one of which is omnipresence. So your point is moot.
Go ahead and prove that Jesus resurrects and raptures ANYONE between the 2 advents. That should be interesting.
FreeGrace2 said:
Now you're just trying to swallow gnats or something.
Yuck.
FreeGrace2 said:
This is a summary verse about what is coming.
I'm just humbled to be in the presence of such erudite posters.
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, bully for you. However, truth is truth. Either you have it or you don't, regardless of your debating "skills". Or your opinion of them. The only way to prove your claims is by having Scripture that says what you claim. Well, do you?
Of course v.1 speaks of the rapture, as well as the Second coming of Christ, you know, at the END of the trib, just like we find the resurrection of trib martyrs in Rev 20:4.
I have no idea what your point is about ch 2 speaking about faith. What do you think posttribbers claim about "faith"?
What are you mumbling about here? I've never ever argued about FAITH in 2 Thess.
So just explain what "coming of our Lord" refers to in 2 Thess 2:1. That would help.
You're not paying attention here. I've never ever mentioned "MY truths". I frequently mention THE truth (singular).
So, I recommend that before you fire off a post full of errors, at least read through the post carefully so you won't make these king of errors in your response.
The "coming" in 2 Thess 2:1 is very specific, and is tied to being "gathered to Him". So, what does it refer to?
Then just take my challenge and put in parentheses what you believe "coming of our Lord" means. It's that easy.
This isn't the verse in my challenge. It is 2 Thess 2:1. Please try again.
Please don't shake too hard. Could be dangerous. Your phony claim here is hilarious. I'm not hung up on anything, contrary to your opinion.
Well, let me clear some things up for you, since it seems you are just very confused.
The issue of my challenge is 2 Thess 2:1 and what "coming of our Lord" refers to and what "gathered to Him" refers to. Can you explain what these words refer to?
Is this what you think the rapture is about?
And I coudn't care less about opinions.
Well, let's see our challenge about 2 Thess 2:1 and see what works.
I said:
"Heb 9:28 is clear enough for anyone to grasp. "He will appear a second time" means exactly what it says. The first part of the verse references His FIRST appearance on earth. So the math is very easy."
I am very sorry that I boggled your mind with such simple math. I'll try to be more careful in the future. I thought the words "second time" were fairly easy to grasp, in regards to how many appearances Jesus makes on this planet. I guess not so much.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you presume I don't know that. Acts 24:15 makes that point very clearly. As does Acts 24:15.
Well, how about that!! Of course there are only 2 resurrections. The Bible says so, just as Heb 9:28 speaks about Jesus' SECOND appearance.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I won't mention anything about "math" since I know how it affects some. So I color coded this verse for easy grasping.
First, the very large 'a' in purple shows a singular concept, in this case, the subject is about resurrection, which is in red. Then, we see what "both" refers to. In blue we have the saved, and in green we have the unsaved.
I won't ask you to count up how many "both" add up to, but I'm sure it's obvious. So, this verse SAYS there is A resurrection for the saved, and A resurrection for the unsaved. (pssst) That's 2 resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This verse speaks of the resurrection of the saved, of which Christ is the firstfruits. Then followed WHEN HE COMES, by "those who belong to Him".
So, who do you think "belongs to Him"? Great question. Everyone who has placed their faith in the Messiah for salvation. That would be from Adam on.
Huh? Prove it from Scripture. Not someone's opinion, please.
Oh, I see. What you really meant to say is that this "singular resurrection" is phased over 7 years. Nonsense.
Instead, just prove that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. I don't care which "phased" resurrection you want to pick. By proving, I mean having a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Until then, you don't have a point.
To be clear, each member of the Trinity shares all characteristics, one of which is omnipresence. So your point is moot.
Go ahead and prove that Jesus resurrects and raptures ANYONE between the 2 advents. That should be interesting.
FreeGrace2 said:
Now you're just trying to swallow gnats or something.
Yuck.
FreeGrace2 said:
This is a summary verse about what is coming.
I'm just humbled to be in the presence of such erudite posters.
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, bully for you. However, truth is truth. Either you have it or you don't, regardless of your debating "skills". Or your opinion of them. The only way to prove your claims is by having Scripture that says what you claim. Well, do you?
Of course v.1 speaks of the rapture, as well as the Second coming of Christ, you know, at the END of the trib, just like we find the resurrection of trib martyrs in Rev 20:4.
I have no idea what your point is about ch 2 speaking about faith. What do you think posttribbers claim about "faith"?
What are you mumbling about here? I've never ever argued about FAITH in 2 Thess.
So just explain what "coming of our Lord" refers to in 2 Thess 2:1. That would help.
You're not paying attention here. I've never ever mentioned "MY truths". I frequently mention THE truth (singular).
So, I recommend that before you fire off a post full of errors, at least read through the post carefully so you won't make these king of errors in your response.
The "coming" in 2 Thess 2:1 is very specific, and is tied to being "gathered to Him". So, what does it refer to?