2 Timothy 4: 3

[GWH]

I've learned to give heed to every word you post, because I know you have intent and thought behind each one. A nd i like that.

The word I'd like to press you on is the word " all". Calls all sinners.

Even though Christ died and covered every sin past present and future , for all sinners.

With intensive mining into the Greek texts, it's clear. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group that are not called. Not a popular truth, where do you stand on this? Or have you ever considered it?

You are very perceptive, because I have indeed honed my beliefs to the point where most words have been carefully considered and written in my resource in case I forget what I think is the best way of saying something.

I think God calls all/the whole group of sinners/humanity (per Acts 17:30, 1Tim. 2:3-4), but not all accept His call (e.g., Matt. 23:37).
Those who accept God's call/will/word are a relatively small group, although the pool of possible saints includes all who have ever lived anywhere in the world because of general revelation via creation and conscience, on the basis of which they are judged (Rom. 1:20).

I consider this issue whenever discussing TULIP.

 

[Watchman22]

You are very perceptive, because I have indeed honed my beliefs to the point where most words have been carefully considered and written in my resource in case I forget what I think is the best way of saying something.

I think God calls all/the whole group of sinners/humanity (per Acts 17:30, 1Tim. 2:3-4), but not all accept His call (e.g., Matt. 23:37).
Those who accept God's call/will/word are a relatively small group, although the pool of possible saints includes all who have ever lived anywhere in the world because of general revelation via creation and conscience, on the basis of which they are judged (Rom. 1:20).

I consider this issue whenever discussing TULIP.

This is something my instructor spent decades looking at. I will try and see if it can find t he evidence he found.

 

[Watchman22]

You are very perceptive, because I have indeed honed my beliefs to the point where most words have been carefully considered and written in my resource in case I forget what I think is the best way of saying something.

I think God calls all/the whole group of sinners/humanity (per Acts 17:30, 1Tim. 2:3-4), but not all accept His call (e.g., Matt. 23:37).
Those who accept God's call/will/word are a relatively small group, although the pool of possible saints includes all who have ever lived anywhere in the world because of general revelation via creation and conscience, on the basis of which they are judged (Rom. 1:20).

I consider this issue whenever discussing TULIP.

Another hard truth that shows itself deep in the Greek texts, is that God most likely spends more time trying to keep certain people out of His presence, than the popular understanding of Jesus sitting on a street corner, hat in hand, saying, will you please accept me.

One example, why He spoke in parables.

I do think there is another path for those to enter His presence, through the promises of Jesus to the saints.

Example, " you and your household. "

 

[GWH]

Another hard truth that shows itself deep in the Greek texts, is that God most likely spends more time trying to keep certain people out of His presence, than the popular understanding of Jesus sitting on a street corner, hat in hand, saying, will you please accept me.

One example, why He spoke in parables.

I do think there is another path for those to enter His presence, through the promises of Jesus to the saints.

Example, " you and your household. "

Standing in the town corners urging folks to accept him as Messiah is what Jesus did.
Parables are not difficult to understand; they serve to sort folks into saved or not (cf. 1Cor. 1-2).
"You and your household" indicates the corporate view of family, and my own testimony affirms
the truth that those raised by loving Christian parents are likely to be Christians from birth (2Tim. 3:15, Pro. 22:6).

 

[Watchman22]

Standing in the town corners urging folks to accept him as Messiah is what Jesus did.
Parables are not difficult to understand; they serve to sort folks into saved or not (cf. 1Cor. 1-2).
"You and your household" indicates the corporate view of family, and my own testimony affirms
the truth that those raised by loving Christian parents are likely to be Christians from birth (2Tim. 3:15, Pro. 22:6).

He didn't beg people to accept Him as the underlying truth of Christians today.

You and your household refers to those being healed. Saved ?

Jesus taught if you don't understand this Parable, you can't understand any of them. I would say there's a difficulty factor and a kind of security involved.

 

[mailmandan]

Conversion/justification should not be divorced from discipleship/sanctification.
Rom. 4:5-6 should be harmonized with Rom. 1:17, 5:5, 8:9 and Eph. 2:8-10, etc.

It's not about conversion/justification being divorced from discipleship/sanctification. The one who is sanctified is also justified. (1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Those who have been justified by faith and are converted have also been sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ and are disciples of Christ. Romans 4:5-6 is in harmony with Romans 1:17, 5:5, 8:9 and Ephesians 2:8-10 when properly interpreted and justification does not get conflated with ongoing sanctification.

We also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.
So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

Like a tree establishes deep roots in the ground and draws nourishment, a believer is to be rooted and built up in Christ, which strengthens our faith.

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

There is a difference between receiving Jesus Christ by grace through faith at conversion then afterwards living our lives by or out of faith after conversion. It sounds to me like you are conflating justification with ongoing sanctification.

Grace is God's unmerited favor in which He shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions/performance/works. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

God's grace (enabling power) also operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

 

[mailmandan]

So you surrender your life every day, all day if needed, and your seeing a person that is performance driven? Hey look at my life Lord?

You've missed the whole point, IT'S NOT YOUR LIFE ANYMORE! Nothing to point to , nothing to say hey look at me and my life.

Think things through a little bit, and let go of believing when you do.

Your point is obvious that you are conflating justification with ongoing sanctification.

 

[Watchman22]

Your point is obvious that you are conflating justification with ongoing sanctification.

I'm just trying to communicate what true faith and faithing is. Until you get that part right, there's nothing else to talk about.

 

[GWH]

He didn't beg people to accept Him as the underlying truth of Christians today.

You and your household refers to those being healed. Saved ?

Jesus taught if you don't understand this Parable, you can't understand any of them. I would say there's a difficulty factor and a kind of security involved.

In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in Matt. 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled Isa. 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in Matt. 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (Matt. 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in Matt. 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in Matt. 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures as Matt. 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. Matt. 22:39, John 3:16, Rom. 5:6-8, 1Tim. 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm just trying to communicate what true faith and faithing is.

By conflating the two terms?

Until you get that part right, there's nothing else to talk about.

I don't conflate the two terms, just like I don't conflate justification with ongoing sanctification.

 

[Watchman22]

In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in Matt. 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled Isa. 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in Matt. 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (Matt. 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in Matt. 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in Matt. 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures as Matt. 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. Matt. 22:39, John 3:16, Rom. 5:6-8, 1Tim. 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

I feel like I'm talking with an AI G. Rely on what's in your heart. You have an open mind, it only does you any good if you allow yourself to learn.

You've never mentioned a gifted teacher in your life before. Is there one? Do you consider yourself one of the gifted teachers?

 

[Watchman22]

By conflating the two terms?

I don't conflate the two terms, just like I don't conflate justification with ongoing sanctification.

"A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

 

[Watchman22]

In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in Matt. 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled Isa. 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in Matt. 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (Matt. 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in Matt. 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in Matt. 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures as Matt. 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. Matt. 22:39, John 3:16, Rom. 5:6-8, 1Tim. 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

We are either the one doing the perfecting, or the one being perfected, which one am I talking to G.?

 

[mailmandan]

"A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Defining faith as a personal surrender to Christ and a life inspired by such surrender conflates justification (the legal declaration of righteousness based on Christ's work) with ongoing sanctification (the ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness).

 

[Watchman22]

Defining faith as a personal surrender to Christ and a life inspired by such surrender conflates justification (the legal declaration of righteousness based on Christ's work) with ongoing sanctification (the ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness).

It defines pisteuo, not pistis. If you don't agree with it write Vines and take it up with him.

 

[mailmandan]

It defines pisteuo, not pistis. If you don't agree with it write Vines and take it up with him.

Regardless, the Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form.

 

[Watchman22]

Regardless, the Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form.

Two forms of the same word? Can you give an example?

 

[mailmandan]

Two forms of the same word? Can you give an example?

Yes, pisteuo and pistis are two different forms of the same root word in Greek. Pisteuo is a verb that means "to believe" or "to trust." Pistis is a noun that means "faith," "belief," or "trust." They share the same root. Why else would you think that both words in various verses result in salvation?

 

[Watchman22]

Yes, pisteuo and pistis are two different forms of the same root word in Greek. Pisteuo is a verb that means "to believe" or "to trust." Pistis is a noun that means "faith," "belief," or "trust." They share the same root. Why else would you think that both words in various verses result in salvation?

You don't acknowledge that pistis, a conviction, reliance upon Christ, results in salvation?

You don't acknowledge the corresponding verb pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, results in salvation. ?

Fulfilling, salvation is by Grace through faith and faithing.?

Pistis is used 245 times, pisteuo 248 times.
When God repeats Himself pay extra attention.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't acknowledge that pistis, a conviction, reliance upon Christ, results in salvation?

I acknowledge that pistis involves reliance upon Christ, which results in salvation.

Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity https://share.google/Obxp9PpmScwfnTIVf

You don't acknowledge the corresponding verb pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him

I acknowledge that pisteuo involves surrender, which involves entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ.

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- To believe, to have faith, to trust

and a life inspired by such surrender, results in salvation. ?

A life lived inspired by such surrender follows having been saved by grace through faith.

Fulfilling, salvation is by Grace through faith and faithing.?

Salvation is by grace through faith by surrendering our trust in Christ alone for salvation and faithing which follows is an active process of living out that trust and surrender day by day in the process of ongoing sanctification.