2 way imputation in gethsename?
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K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
I believe God's judgement on Christ may have started in the Garden of Gethsemane since he was in immense agony and sweating as if it were great drops of blood (Luke 22:44) but I don't think the full imputation of our sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers happened until Jesus stated "It is finished" on the cross and died. It was at that point the veil of the temple was torn in two symbolically removing the barrier between us and God.
...but I haven't studied views of the 2-way imputation happening in Gethsemane, so there could be some scripture I haven't considered, so not dogmatic about it.
...but I haven't studied views of the 2-way imputation happening in Gethsemane, so there could be some scripture I haven't considered, so not dogmatic about it.
Our sins being imputed onto Christ and Christs richousness being inputed onto all who would believe
A double imputation
In the Garden when Christ asked if the cup could pass him by (in His human nature) nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.(in His divine Nature)
youl notice that just after this the guard
In the Garden when Christ asked if the cup could pass him by (in His human nature) nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.(in His divine Nature)
you will notice that just after this the guard tore Christs beard,
Before this assault on Christ you will notice that nobody was ever able to lay a hand on Christ as he was not under the curse and then once he the assault started was under the curse so I would suggest that the 2 way imputation happened between when He started sweating blood and the cup of wrath
He was bearing our sins all the way until He said it was finished on the cross ??
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
There was no imputation of any sort which transpired in the garden of Gethsemane. Instead, Christ bore our sins on the cross, and he was raised from the dead for our justification.
Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
You would agree that Christ came under the wrath of the the Father in the garden ?
As He nobody could lay a finger on Him before the centurion guard tore His beard ?
so I would suggest that is where The sin of you and me was imputed onto the Back of Christ and He was bearing it to the cross
The 2 scapegoats remember one was sent driven out into the wilderness which is a shadow of Christ under the curse(losing the light of the Fathers countenance )
and the second Goat was sacraficed in the temple itself and
intended to be a shadow for the person who offers it.
Christ is the 2 scapegoats from the garden to the cross and on the cross
Do u get what I mean
Christ performed both tasks: the offering for sin, and the carrying away of sin
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
I get what you mean, but Christ needed to be crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended back to the Father in heaven in order to initiate the new testament or the new covenant.
Heb 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
A testament goes into effect or is of force after men are dead, and it is of no strength at all while the testator is yet alive. It is by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament or the old testament, that we which are called can receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Christ not only needed to die and be resurrected, but he also needed to enter into the true holy place in heaven by his own blood in order to obtain redemption for us, and he did this when he ascended back to the Father in heaven. There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.
Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The blood that redeems us was shed on the cross, and not in the garden of Gethsemane.
Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Furthermore, it was not until the time of Christ's glorification that he was "appointed heir of all things" (Heb. 1:2), so none of us could possibly become "joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17) without this aspect of Christ's redemptive work.
Under the old testament, the saints who looked forward to this complete redemptive work of Christ by faith had righteousness imputed unto them. Whereas they looked forward to it by faith, under the new testament, we look back upon it by faith.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
On this point, we agree, but this did not occur in the garden of Gethsemane.
Like the Lamb in the anti/type
Before the alter the hands were laid on the Lamb that was spotless by High priest,the sacrifice and that indicates a transfer of sin of whoever was offering and after that the lamb was doomed to die
it was immediately slain and laid on the altar
1 :selection
2 Seperation
3:imputation
4then death
Anyone bearing sin is under the curse of God,Gods curse is under unbelievers as we speak
Christ was under the Fathers curse from the moment he was attacked so He was bearing our sin from that moment
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Again, I understand what you are saying, and there is some truth to it. However, even in the scenario which you just described, the process is not complete prior to death. Christ did not die in the garden of Gethsemane, but on the cross. Furthermore, his death on the cross was not enough to procure redemption for us. Instead, he needed to also be raised from the dead, to ascend back to the Father in heaven, and to be glorified or restored to the glory which he had with the Father before the foundation of the world for the redemption process to be completed.
For example, Paul said:
1Co 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Without Christ's resurrection, we are yet in our sins.
Anyhow, had you said that the imputation process was initiated in the garden of Gethsemane, then I would have agreed. However, in no way, shape, or form was it completed there.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
In hindsight, I should clarify this comment.
Of course, the initiation process began before the foundation of the world. In my earlier response, I was directly referring to the process you mentioned in your post.
I don’t think said that it was completed there ?if I did apologies
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
You did not say it was completed in those exact words, but you did say this in your opening post.
You said "happen" and not "begin." To me, and I could be misreading your intent, that indicated that you felt that it was completed there.
Anyhow, if you agree that it was not completed there, then we are on the same page.
Il take that one on the chin
I definately don’t think it was completed there atol
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
This is not a fight, so you do not need to take anything on the chin. Sometimes, we know what we are trying to say, but we do not necessarily convey our thoughts clearly when putting them into text. In fact, I needed to go back and clarify one of my comments in this conversation myself.
Anyhow, we are good.
Have a blessed day.
he had to first go to death willingly once for all to reconcile all as forgiven first. that had to get done first, before any new life could ever be installed in anyone, says this in Acts 1 to the disciples. He had to go to a one time death willingly first. This was to reconcile us all everyone (2 Cor 5:17-20) and see verse 16, we once knew Christ in the flesh, today no more. Now only in Spirit and Truth. read 1 John 2:1-27, verse 27 especially seeing we need no one else to teach us new, God Father in the Holy Spirit does that for each of us all in Love and mercy given us first, at least me thanks
O
ocean
Guest
Probably when He said 'It is finished', hung His head and gave up His life.
Guessing you mean 'righteousness'? Not trying to nit pick, but you could pick up a real scolding around here for such things.