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phil112
Guest
When I called you an idiot I was being too kind. Now you know what things are like from God's perspective? You're a fool.
Here I will post what my response was too so everyone can see that you made a pointed remark toward another believer which was not called for by you as you are just as guilty...And I will reiterate...you should very carefully examine the bolded below and apply those words to yourself....serious...it would do you some good....!
It saddens me to think that there is no possible way you could be wrong and that you are not even willing to be a good Berean about it (Who were open minded and searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not).).
By what authority do you imagine you can hold God accountable; even if you are right (which I don't think you are)?
No doubt, I agree and I am sure you see what I mean......real world example notwithstanding......!
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phil112
Guest
Originally Posted by Jason0047
From God's perspective, ..............
What I said was as harsh a thing as I have ever said. Matthew 5:22 calls me out on that, and I want to be clear where I am coming from. I am already in danger of hell fire, should I not repent and serve Him. I am also in danger of hell fire if I only do lip service. When jason claims to see things from "God's perspective" I will call him a fool to the end of time. No man has ever seen God, nor will they ever know anything from His perspective. To say so is to hear a fool talking.
Well, first, your opinion is not Scripture. Second, Jesus had a problem with most of the churches in Revelation 2-3. So the majority view is not necessarily mean it is the right view. In other words, they were not doing all things right by His Word (And if Jesus had a problem with those churches back then, you bet things haven't changed today). Third, you are attacking my beliefs and the way I operate; And yet, you are really not addressing the actual verses you disagree with, though. Are you not being off topic by doing so? Are you not being unloving to a fellow believer by doing so? Can you not see Jesus said that believers will be persecuted for their faith? What do you think you are doing? Loving me? I am not feeling the love (Just in case you are wondering). Wouldn't you be more productive by seeking the Scriptures and sticking to the topic at hand instead of putting me down?
As for referring to others: Many of us have learned from our Pastors and other teachers. How do we know that your Pastors and or that your popular Bible College has taught to you everything that is right? Are they without error? I think not. The true test is what Jesus has said. We shall know them by their fruits. Yes, Jesus judged others. However, He could judge in a way that we cannot because He can read people's hearts and minds. We cannot do that. While I may disagree with some of the way you have been taught at Bible College, I am not going to interrupt a Bible discussion and scold you personally on a public forum for what you have been taught. I can't judge you and I don't know what you accepted there. It's not my place to judge you because I don't know your life. All I can do is discuss the Scriptures with you in a loving and respectful way. If you don't want to do that, then that is your choice.
As for God's perfect justice: Yeah, you really have not explained that in relation to Eternal Concious Torment. I would love to hear about how you think it is loving and good for God to torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. I would like for you to at least try and explain how that is fair and just. For I know you without a doubt that you will never be able to do that. In fact, nobody can. Hence, why it is a false doctrine. Because we both know it is not fair and just. All I will hear is that God's ways are higher than our ways when it comes to explaining this; Either that, or they use a slight of hand magic trick tactic (By changing the topic) by saying that there is a way of escape. Like having a way of escape somehow changes the form of punishment somehow (Which doesn't make any sense).
Anyways, I say this all this not to wound you but in love and truth.
May grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ be unto you.
And may His goodness fill you thru out the week, too.
Matthew 5:21-22 (KJV) [SUP]21 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
That will be eternal torment, just as DC said. I don't think what you said is worth the risk, do you?
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phil112
Guest
Read post 127. I stand by that fact. Anyone that thinks they see things as God sees them is a fool.
God's Word itself is my authority on this matter.
There are more verses that back up Conditional Immortality than Eternal Concious Torture in Flames.
While there may be more, so far there has been 264 recorded references to the fate of the lost by one particular Christian author.
10 (that is 4%) call it Gehenna, which conjures up the imagery of the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, notorious for the hideous rites of Moloch worship, in which children were thrown alive into the red-hot arms of the god – an abomination in the eyes of the Lord (Lv. 18:21; 20:2-5; 2 Ki. 23:10; 2 Ch. 28:3; 33:6; Je. 7:31; 32:35). It is often said to have been the site of the city's rubbish tip in the days of Christ, where bodies of criminals and animals were thrown, but evidence for this is late and unreliable. It is in any case an evil place in which are pictured corpses being consumed by fire and maggots as in Isaiah 66 (Mt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; Lk. 12:5). Two of these call it the Gehenna of fire.
There are 26 other references (that is 10%) to burning up, three of which concern the lake of fire of the Apocalypse. Fire naturally suggests destruction and is much used for the destruction of what is worthless or evil.
It is only by a pedantic use of the modern concept of the conservation of mass and energy that it is possible to say that fire destroys nothing. It has a secondary use as a cause of pain, as in the case of the rich man of the Lazarus story.
There is 51 (22%) that speak of destruction, perdition, utter loss or ruin. Our Lord himself in the Sermon on the Mount uses destruction, which he contrasts with life, as the destination of those who choose the broad road (Mt. 7:13). Paul uses it of 'the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction' (Rom. 9:22); of 'those who oppose you' who 'will be destroyed' (Phil. 1:28); of the enemies of the cross of Christ whose 'destiny is destruction' (Phil. 3:19). 'The man of lawlessness is . . . doomed to destruction' (2 Thes. 2:3); harmful desires 'plunge men into ruin and destruction' (1 Tim. 6:9). Hebrews 10:39 says 'we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who believe and are saved.' 2 Peter speaks of 'destructive heresies . . . bringing swift destruction . . . their destruction has not been sleeping' (2:1-3). 'The present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men' (3:7). The old order will disappear and 'the elements will be destroyed by fire' (3:10-12). The beast will 'go to his destruction' (Rev. 17:8,11).
The very common word apollumi is frequently used of eternal ruin, destruction and loss, as in John 3:16: 'should not perish', but it is also used of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son, who, though metaphorically dead and whose life was in total ruin, was restored (Lk. 15).
20 cases (8%) speak of separation from God, which carries no connotation of endlessness unless one presupposes immortality: 'depart from me' (Mt. 7:23); 'cast him into the outer darkness' (Mt. 22:13); he 'shall not enter' the kingdom (Mk. 10:15); 'one will be taken and the other left (Lk. 17:34); 'he is cast forth as a branch' (Jn. 15:6); 'outside are the dogs', etc. (Rev. 22:15). This concept of banishment from God is a terrifying one. It does not mean escaping from God, since God is everywhere in his creation, every particle of which owes its continuing existence to his sustaining. It means, surely, being utterly cut off from the source and sustainer of life. It is another way of describing destruction.
25 cases (10%) refer to death in its finality, sometimes called 'the second death'. Without resurrection even 'those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished' (1 Cor. 15:18). This has been brought out with great force by a number of modern theologians like Oscar Cullmann, Helmut Thielicke and Murray Harris. They show that the teaching of the New Testament is to be sharply contrasted with the Greek notion of the immortality of the soul, which sees death as the release of the soul from the prison of the body. What the Christian looks forward to is not a bodiless entrance 'into the highest heavens' at death but a glorious transformation at the Parousia when he is raised from death. Life is contrasted with death, which is a cessation of life, rather than with a continuance of life in misery.
108 cases (41%) refer to what I have called unforgiven sin: adverse judgment, in which the penalty is not specified (e.g. 'they will receive greater condemnation' (Mk. 12:40)); life forfeited, with the wrath of God resting on the unbeliever (Jn. 3:36); being unsaved, without specifying what the saved are delivered from (Mt. 24:13). Other passages show salvation contrasted with lostness (Mt. 16:25), perishing (1 Cor. 1:18), destruction (Jas. 4:12), condemnation (Mk. 16:16), judgment (Jn. 3:17), death (2 Cor. 7:10), never with everlasting misery or pain.
15 cases (6%) refer to anguish – this includes tribulation and distress (Rom. 2:9), deliverance to tormentors (Mt. 18:34), outer darkness (Mt. 22:13), wailing and grinding of teeth (Mt. 25:30), the undying worm (Mk. 9:48), beaten with many stripes (Lk. 12:47), the birth-pains of death (Acts 2:24), sorer punishment (Heb. 10:29).
There is 1 verse (Rev. 14:11) – this represents less than a half of 1% – which refers to human beings who have no rest, day or night, the smoke of whose torment goes up for ever and ever, which we shall come back to in a moment.
It is a terrible catalogue, giving most solemn warning, yet in all but one of the 264 references there is not a word about unending torment and very many of them in their natural sense clearly refer to destruction.
Source:
http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/conditional-immortality-wenham.php#.VRyw4U8o7MI
The final fate of the unsaved is:
- To vanish like smoke (Psalm 37.20)
- Like the snail that melts into slime, like the stillborn child that never sees the sun (Psalm 58.8)
- Like smoke that is driven away, like wax melts before a fire (Psalm 68.2)
- Destroyed, wiped out all remembrance of them (Isaiah 26.14)
- Stubble in a burning oven; leaving them neither root nor branch; ashes under the soles of the righteous' feet (Malachi 4.1-3)
- Slaying of body and soul (Matthew 10.28)
- Death (Romans 6.23)
- Eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1.9)
- Like Sodom and Gomorrah: turned to ashes, and condemned to extinction (2 Peter 2.6)
- The second death (Revelation 2.11ff)
First: I was NOT challenging your right to reject the premise of eternal fire; I was challenging your authority to hold God accountable to your standard.
Second: How many times does God's word need to say something you disagree with before you loose the authority to dismiss it?
Well, I didn't wake up one day and say I was right and God was wrong. My decision was influenced by Scripture. If you were to take note, I said previously within this thread that I held to both views as being a possibility for a long while. After I was convinced by Scripture, I realized bow wrong Eternal Torture Within Fire actually was. For if something is good and right then it comes from God. If something is wrong then it does not come from God.