50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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I also believe that salvation is the exact same whether in the OT or NT.
Right.

Always a matter of "faith".




"and every priest, indeed, hath stood daily serving, and the same sacrifices many times offering, that are never able to take away sins." -Hebrews 10:11 ;)
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Runningman said:
I thought you did pretty good. You don't seem like a much of a dispensationalist.

Do you believe that God will authorize animal sacrifices again for Israel during the great tribulation?
YES I believe, the Jews will build the Third Temple, not convinced it will be on the right Location.
Another misreading by this poster. Runningman asked if God WILL AUTHORIZE3 ANIMAL SACRIFICES again in the Trib. The answer is NO. Of course He won't authorize such activity. Why not? Because His Son ALREADY made the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

The first 18 verses of Hebrews 10 is about Christ's once for all sacrifice and ends with this:
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
 

VCO

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Do you have Jesus returning twice?

Scriptures please.

That is a return. I think I told you before, it is not a return until HIS FEET touch the Ground. This is the RETURN:


Zechariah 14:4 (NASB)
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.


THAT IS A RETURN, and anything less is not.

HE STOPS IN THE CLOUDS during the Rapture.

That is part of the Jewish ritual of Receiving the BRIDE.
HE is not allowed to go near the Brides old dwelling place, HE has to designate a member of HIS wedding party to go on from that place to Call Out the BRIDE. He has chosen to designate the Archangel to Call Out His Bride.
 

VCO

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I agree there will be a third temple, but it'll be inhabited by an anti-Christ. The construction of the third temple, with temple activities in session, will be an important milestone in fulfilment of end times prophecy.

Do you believe this third temple, complete with animal and non-animal sacrifices for sin offerings, will be ordained by God though?

Look again, He does not interfere during the First Half of the SEVEN YEAR COVENIENT with ISRAEL.

Daniel 9:27 (NASB)
27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

That is a week of YEARS, that he is talking about.

The Antichrist Beheads any one who refuses the MARK of submission to him as god.

It says the Abomination is ON THE WING of the Temple.

I think he will have public executions on the Wing of the Temple, probably a guillotine.

How does he get it up there, there is a secret staircase that goes up there for the TRUMPETERS to call the People.

1623624099963.png 1623624017736.png

OOPS, wrong page! Oh well.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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That is a return. I think I told you before, it is not a return until HIS FEET touch the Ground. This is the RETURN:


Zechariah 14:4 (NASB)
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.


THAT IS A RETURN, and anything less is not.

HE STOPS IN THE CLOUDS during the Rapture.

Of course Jesus stops in the clouds. He arrives with all the saints already in heaven because they died. And all the living saints are "gathered to Him". So of course He stops. Otherwise, He would CRASH into the living believers coming up to "meet Him in the air", per 1 Thess 4:17.

However, this is where this poster errs greatly. He believes Jesus makes that famous U-turn and takes all the resurrected and raptured believers back to heaven. But he has NOT provided ANY verses that either say this or describe this.

When the Bible is SILENT on a subject, so should we.

However, we don't have to be silent about Jesus coming at the Second Advent, when He gathers all the living saints to Himself in the air, clouds for the resurrection and changing per 1 Cor 15:52. That we don't have to be silent. Jesus raptures living believers when He returns at the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1-3 very plainly says so.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The action "caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]" refers to both the "we which are ALIVE and remain" *and* the portion who had been "the DEAD IN Christ" who will "rise first" just BEFORE the "caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]" action occurs (i.e. the SNATCH-action G726 [harpazo]... our glorified/perfected bodies are what is "caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]")
 

GaryA

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While you're viewing this section of scripture again, please also take note of what I pointed out in a previous post ...
("noted")

When we study, we should always consider everything in the context of the verse, the passage, the chapter, the book, etc. - whatever context(s) give significance to the meaning.

It will take me a while - it is time-consuming looking at so many details from multiple passages along with looking up word definitions, etc. (whatever may be needed) - it is not a simple small undertaking...
 

cv5

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While you're viewing this section of scripture again, please also take note of what I pointed out in a previous post (somewhere, I think, in this thread), about how verse 20 is describing the "individual-person" aspect of the beast (i.e. the "another horn/king" vv.8,20-21,24)... "whose look was more stout than his fellows"... which, to me, shows that these day-amounts supplied in this context span only within what an individual-person's life-span would be, rather than considering this to be speaking of the "governmental-aspect" said beast (which could feasibly span the longer time-frame). Make sense? = )
Thank goodness somebody is making sense around here lol....:D

Still waiting for one of Waldroods 50 reasons to be quashed nullified or disposed.
 

cv5

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Thank goodness somebody is making sense around here lol....:D

Still waiting for one of Waldroods 50 reasons to be quashed nullified or disposed.
whoops........typo.....Mr. Walvoord
 

cv5

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Look again, He does not interfere during the First Half of the SEVEN YEAR COVENIENT with ISRAEL.

Daniel 9:27 (NASB)
27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

That is a week of YEARS, that he is talking about.

The Antichrist Beheads any one who refuses the MARK of submission to him as god.

It says the Abomination is ON THE WING of the Temple.

I think he will have public executions on the Wing of the Temple, probably a guillotine.

How does he get it up there, there is a secret staircase that goes up there for the TRUMPETERS to call the People.

View attachment 228629 View attachment 228628

OOPS, wrong page! Oh well.
I really appreciate insights on the Jewish wedding ceremonies and customs and the Temple. Very useful and interesting.......(y)
 
Oct 23, 2020
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What am I saying differently "now" from that which I've already been saying??



The word "end" in v.9 references back to what Jesus is pointing out about what "many [who will come in His name, will be (FALSELY)] saying, '[...]; AND THE TIME DRAWETH NEAR'" (to which Jesus instructs: "go ye not therefore after them" and then tells what are the "these things must FIRST come to pass" and still yet, "but the END is not by and by," meaning, the point in time those He's referencing in v.8 and what THEY will be saying (i.e. "the time draweth near")... Jesus is saying, no, first "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" events must unfold (i.e. SEALS), and then more birth pangs following on from those (i.e. vv.25-26,28,31) before the actual event of Jesus' RETURN takes place in v.27, referring to the point in time of their "redemption" (v.28c references) and "the kingdom of God" (v.31c references; ... which things, leading UP TO that point in time, are simply "NIGH" and "NIGH AT HAND" rather than themselves being the "END" [end-point] being referenced in v.9)




The context of Matt10 covers both the NEAR events (70ad) and the FAR-FUTURE events (future 7-yr Trib yrs), and if I recall rightly, the division starts around v.21... so your v.22 falls into the latter category.




Matt24 STARTS OFF with "the beginning of birth pangs" (at the START of the "far-future" 7-yr Trib yrs) and follows on from there, with v.14 included [and 26:13, same] referring to what WILL be being preached WITHIN those future Trib years (which is not what msg is going forth "NOW" / "in this present age [singular]" / presently... I covered that in other posts, so won't get into that here in this post...)
There are lots of misconceptions ingrained in your propositions. It's not your fault as you are really
just perpetuating false doctrines that have been long established in the Church.

Two salient ones are the dislocation of Daniel's 70th week out of the first century,
and confusion over Jesus's second coming, which was also in the first century,
his third coming obviously being future.
Until you address the wrong ideas undergirding your complicated schemas, you will continue to be in error and somewhat
marginal.
 

cv5

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Lecturing me now?

The end that Jesus refers to in Luke 21:9 is the end of the old covenant age- the destruction of the Temple.
See Matt 10:22 , 24:6,14
Excuse me? Jesus is declaring that the end is ***NOT*** immediately. The fact that you incorrectly attributed the statement to the Temple is yet another error.

Of course DTW is once again spot on with his exegesis of these passages.

Come on Old Sage and get with the program. This is intermediate level difficulty stuff at best.
I actually think it's nearest to beginner level to be very honest.
 

GaryA

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There are lots of misconceptions ingrained in your propositions. It's not your fault as you are really
just perpetuating false doctrines that have been long established in the Church.
I have been telling them this type of thing for a long time now...

Two salient ones are the dislocation of Daniel's 70th week out of the first century,
and confusion over Jesus's second coming, which was also in the first century,
his third coming obviously being future.
Until you address the wrong ideas undergirding your complicated schemas, you will continue to be in error and somewhat
marginal.
I have warned them concerning the Daniel's 70th week error many times...

But - what makes you think Jesus came back during the 1st century?

What verses of scripture apply?

(which you will no-doubt say were fully fulfilled at that time and are not referring to His "next" coming)

In your view, which verses refer to which coming?

Every place in scripture that refers to His 'coming' seems to indicate that there is only one [more] 'coming'.

How do you reconcile this with your view?
 

cv5

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I have been telling them this type of thing for a long time now...


I have warned them concerning the Daniel's 70th week error many times...

But - what makes you think Jesus came back during the 1st century?

What verses of scripture apply?

(which you will no-doubt say were fully fulfilled at that time and are not referring to His "next" coming)

In your view, which verses refer to which coming?

Every place in scripture that refers to His 'coming' seems to indicate that there is only one [more] 'coming'.

How do you reconcile this with your view?
Sorry for chiming in but it's quite clear that you are both wrong about Daniel's 70th week prophecy. There really is only one correct view. And neither of yours qualify.
 

GaryA

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Sorry for chiming in but it's quite clear that you are both wrong about Daniel's 70th week prophecy. There really is only one correct view. And neither of yours qualify.
"We shall see..." :)
 

VCO

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What is in the immortal body?


I missed this one, sorry. Immortal cannot ever die, and is the Glorified Body, and Christ is the Life giving force in that body.

In the mortal body the life giving force is the blood.

This should help:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (HCSB)
50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.


1 John 5:11 (NIV)
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Colossians 3:4 (ESV)
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. {<--That is HEAVEN!}


NOW, scripture says that LIFE is in the BLOOD, here on earth, but in HEAVEN LIFE IS IN THE SON.


Leviticus 17:14 (GWT)
14 This is because the life of any creature is in its blood.
So I have said to the people of Israel:
Never eat any blood, because the life of any creature is in its blood.
Whoever eats blood must be excluded {from the people}.
 

cv5

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Correct.

490 years - no gap - ended in 34 A.D.
You've got an entire Bible that says: nope! You've got that all wrong.

That brand of eschatology is amateur hour my friend. Nobody who actually knows what they're talking about believes anything like that for one single solitary second.

Maybe it's time you sat at the feet of someone who actually knows what they're talking about such as Walvoord or TDW......:oops:

So let me ask you what is to become of the covenant to Abraham and the Israelites?