50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[GRACE_ambassador]

randyk said: Yes, I actually have the departed
in Christ in heaven *today.* They are with Christ in heaven *now.*

GRACE_ambassador said:

In their glorified bodies? IF so, THEN:
PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure IS First! Correct?

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I take the classical position that Christ returns in a Postrib context, bringing back with him the departed, glorified saints. All Christians in this age, and all OT saints, are glorified, together with the departed, at once, at the 2nd Advent of Christ, on the Last Day of the age.

Precious friend, "what this means here" is: Are the departed in Christ in heaven, *today* still asleep {NOT glorified yet!}, OR: Are they "awake in CHRIST," {glorified}?
Did you somehow MISS The Scriptural Answer to ewq1938 in post #4,311 ?

So, continuing this Great Pre- vs Post- Discussion, let us ask this question:

What do you do with the view that The Head of the Pre-trib Body Of CHRIST,
"CHRIST Gathers us TO Himself, changing us into "glorified bodies," meeting
us in the air," and continues in the SAME Direction, To Be Judged At The
Bema Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, In Heaven, And "Presents us with hearts
unblameable in holiness TO HIS Father!"

MYSTERY/GRACE "Age" Must Be Ended... (Romans-Philemon KJB!), Correct?

vs, or: Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER!:

... Before God Resumes "Age" of Prophecy/Law (Matthew And Revelation KJB!):

The KING of kings comes to the earth, completes the battle of Armageddon,
sets up His Throne Of Glory, And THEN, HE Blows Another trumpet
[AFTER the so-called LAST "trumpet of the 7th angel], and sends out
HIS army {Singular}, of angels to:

Gather {not "rapture"} the sheep And the goats Of ISRAEL And the nations for judgment, to see who does/does Not "enter into His 1000-year kingdom"
on earth!?

or, Combine THEM BOTH {prophecy And MYSTERY} together
for a post-trib rapture? (reading Romans-Philemon into
Matthew {where the MYSTERY IS UNKNOWN!} and Revelation,
or vice versa?)

Be Blessed!

 

[Absolutely]

Mortal bodies decay in the ground and dissolve into the elements, and are reused to form other bodies. This "human dust" is worthless with respect to the resurrection. "Resurrection" simply means the former person is bodily restored. We receive new glorified bodies from Christ in heaven. That's why we are raptured to heaven, to receive from Christ new glorified bodies.

The Rapture is not just the living, as I understand it. It is both the living and the dead joining in heaven, together receiving new immortal bodies simultaneously. Since the dead are already in heaven, they just remain there until we get there. And then we somehow participate in the revelation of Christ to the earth. He establishes his Kingdom on earth, and we reign with him for a thousand years. This may be more of a "spiritual rule" than a physical rule.

Part of the "problem" is that disembodied spirits do not eat.
It takes a body to do that

That dynamic is illustrated in Jesus eating after his resurrection.

" i will not drink of the vine, again till i drink it anew with you, in my fathers kingdom"

Glorified bodies in heaven during the trib.

You can not address that


Or maybe you can.
Be interesting to see you try.

I am glad i do not need it to say something else.

 

[followJesustoday]

You are shure? To whom Jesus spoke?

Don't agree---Which bible do you get your info from???

 

[Absolutely]

Mortal bodies decay in the ground and dissolve into the elements, and are reused to form other bodies. This "human dust" is worthless with respect to the resurrection. "Resurrection" simply means the former person is bodily restored. We receive new glorified bodies from Christ in heaven. That's why we are raptured to heaven, to receive from Christ new glorified bodies.

The Rapture is not just the living, as I understand it. It is both the living and the dead joining in heaven, together receiving new immortal bodies simultaneously. Since the dead are already in heaven, they just remain there until we get there. And then we somehow participate in the revelation of Christ to the earth. He establishes his Kingdom on earth, and we reign with him for a thousand years. This may be more of a "spiritual rule" than a physical rule.

their BODIES are resurrected and joined with their spirits.

THEN they are as we are (spirit, soul, and body)....alive and on earth.

THEN THEY are raptured first.
.....recieving glorified bodies...first.
THEN WE ARE RAPTURED AS ALIVE saints and are changed in the air...INTO GLORIFIED BODIES ...and continue on into heaven.

Once you see the bride/ groom dimension...and the wedding / wedding supper dimension
...all the centering on the trib and darby thingies fade into Indirect components.

The mistake you have made is
In removing components.

 

[Absolutely]

Lets do "Darby"!

Postrib darby dimension.


Fi fy mo marby...DARBY!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I am asking him where God takes the raptured saints.

He says " not heaven"

And alls I'm pointing out is: that the word "armIES [plural]" is never used (in the PLURAL) when speaking of the "angels" ALONE... so obviously this "the armIES [plural] who were IN the Heaven" *includes* already-glorified/-perfected humans/saints... following Him out of Heaven. I think you and I are in agreement on this point.

In rev 14 for example,firstfruits Jews are in heaven. Then Jesus gathers from the earth.

No telling where you guys think they end up.
Bizarre

I actually disagree with your take on the "144,000 firstfruit" (in my view, the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23, namely in v.17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [<--that's not "us/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]), in that, I do not believe they (the 144,000) are shown to be "in Heaven"...

...and I believe the TARES will be "gathered OUT" Matt13:40-41 (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) and [said to the angels] "collect ye FIRST the TARES" (in that time-slot's context)... which is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to that of our Rapture event. So, no. I believe the "My barn" is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [like how Matt24:29-31 parallels Isa27:9,12-13 "ye shall be gathered one by one, o ye children of Israel, to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"] (the "My barn" not being "[UP IN] Heaven")... yet the "TARES" being gathered/collected "OUT / OUT OF [ek]" (and all things that offend), BY CONTRAST, see...

 

[FreeGrace2]

In rev 14 for example,firstfruits Jews are in heaven. Then Jesus gathers from the earth.

Do you know that the word "gathers" isn't found in ch 14? Instead, Jesus reaps and harvests. Is that what you think the rapture is?

No telling where you guys think they end up.
Bizarre

No, what is bizarre is a story about a pretrib rapture when there isn't ANY mention of such a thing in the Bible.

As to both resurrected and raptured believers, they continue with Jesus to earth and serve in His Millennial kingdom. Rev 20 says so.

 

[Thewatchman]

I am new and not sure just how or what to post and this discution has been going on for some time. As far as flesh bodies we have them from conseption to death then we are done with them. The body goes into the ground to become worm food. The spirit the soul returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiasties 12: 6&7. Luke 16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. Both die both go to the Abraham's bosom one on one side of the gulf and one on the other. Paul makes it clear in 1st Corinthians 15:50 Flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven. So when we die our flesh body returns to the ground from which it came, the soul "spirit" returns to God from wich it came. It can not be anyother way. Revelation 6 we see the souls under the aulter they cry out to God how long shall we wate? Till your fellow servents come join you. This is only the 5th seal and their still more to come and join them. So where is this rapture. In reading all the different psts someone said the church was not in Revelation after the 6th chapter. That is just not true. Chapter and his army come and are told thay can not hurt the trees, grass . . . but only those men which have not the seal of God in their forehead. What is in or behind your forehead? Your brain if not a part of the church just who are these people that have the seal of God in their brain.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The "5th Seal" martyrs are those killed IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib years (the first four SEALS parallel "the beginning of birth PANGS" early in the Trib... so SEAL #5 being fairly equivalent to Matt24:9 "[and they] shall KILL YOU...").

EVERYTHING in Matt24:4-8 (and following on, in the text--2 chpts'-worth) is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event.

NOTHING in Matt24-25 (or ANYWHERE ELSE in His Olivet Discourse) speaks of "our Rapture" event.




[Rev5:9 has the 24 elders saying, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..."... BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened; consistent with all other texts on this Subject...]

 

[OldSage]

You left out that Eleazar Ben Hananiah opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sat in the temple of God, shewing himself that he was God and how Eleazar Ben Hananiah's coming was after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders which are miracles used to deceive and how the Lord consumed Eleazar Ben Hananiah with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed Eleazar Ben Hananiah with the brightness of his coming. Eleazar Ben Hananiah did those things and was destroyed by Christ at the second coming right?

Yep, clearly Eleazar Ben Hananiah is the man of sin Paul wrote about! Preterism gets another thing right! lol


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

I'm quite busy right now, and this is my first quick study - but here goes:

3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.
[Eleazar is Captain of the temple from AD62. He leads the Zealots in a brazen rebellion against the High Priest and the Romans]
4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God.
[He rejects the sacrifice of Caesar and then the Zealots take over the Temple and destroy the orders of divine service - basically he promotes himself above God]
5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes.
[Daniel's 70th week has to come at its appointed time; the Priesthood is still observing Covenantal law and not rebelling against Rome, however when Eleazar murders the High priest, Ananias, the floodgates are opened]
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then that Wicked(KJV) will be revealed,
[Exactly as Christ prophesied, lawlessness was at work after his resurrection, but it has to come to an apogee - the mystery of lawlessness, (that Wicked), will be revealed (apokalypto). I.E. the lawless movement will come out in the open]
whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming.
[As promised, Christ will fulfill scripture - his own prophecies in Daniel and Matthew - and ensure that the Church is manifested in glory and power and that apostate Jerusalem is destroyed]

9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, lit: "Whose presence (parousia) is apparent in the workings of Satan", who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

So now (verse 9) Paul is summating the whole passage. He is explaining how to detect the presence of the mystery of lawlessness, obviously therefore referring to the lawlessness before it manifests itself, i.e. he is giving the Church immediate practicable advice. And finally maybe we can note the two groups at work - those who have rejected Christ, and who are sent the powerfiul delusion, and those who perpetrate the illusion, the radicals (the Zealots) who directly rebel against Roman rule and bring the whole house of cards down.

 

[ewq1938]

What led you to thinking that resurrection is in heaven? I've already noted that the verses about "homes" in heaven refer to the fact that the source for resurrection comes from heaven. You still have no verses that say that Jesus brings resurrected believers with Him.

Of course I do. It was already posted:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him .

In fact, in the rapture verses, the Bible does say that Jesus brings with Him the "dead in Christ" believers and they are resurrected in the clouds first before the living believers are raptured/changed. So they couldn't be resurrected IN heaven BEFORE they come with Christ.

Read it again:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1. the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God
2. the dead in Christ shall rise first

The Lord will leave heaven and the dead will rise. That's before anyone is at the clouds so the only possible place for them to resurrect is in heaven before they follow the Lord t the clouds. That along with the fact that the new body is right there in heaven proves where the dead resurrect.

 

[ewq1938]

It is patently obvious that Paul is talking about first Century events in 2 Thessalonians 2

Pauk speaks of the second coming which destroys the man of sin so you are teaching the heresy of full preterism.

 

[OldSage]

Pauk speaks of the second coming which destroys the man of sin so you are teaching the heresy of full preterism.

So you keep saying. Lol.

 

[Aidan1]

Don't agree---Which bible do you get your info from???

The Adressat of the text are the jews. They will be on earth while the tribulation. Out of them 144000 will be sealed: 12000 from each of the 12 tribes. The church is nowhere mentioned in connection with the tribulation time.
This you find in your bible too.

 

[randyk]

their BODIES are resurrected and joined with their spirits.

THEN they are as we are (spirit, soul, and body)....alive and on earth.

THEN THEY are raptured first.
.....recieving glorified bodies...first.
THEN WE ARE RAPTURED AS ALIVE saints and are changed in the air...INTO GLORIFIED BODIES ...and continue on into heaven.

Once you see the bride/ groom dimension...and the wedding / wedding supper dimension
...all the centering on the trib and darby thingies fade into Indirect components.

The mistake you have made is
In removing components.

Well, the most important thing is, first of all, that we're there. And then, what matters is we all get new bodies, right?

 

[randyk]

Part of the "problem" is that disembodied spirits do not eat.
It takes a body to do that

That dynamic is illustrated in Jesus eating after his resurrection.

" i will not drink of the vine, again till i drink it anew with you, in my fathers kingdom"

Glorified bodies in heaven during the trib.

You can not address that


Or maybe you can.
Be interesting to see you try.

I am glad i do not need it to say something else.

I agree that bodies eat--not spirits. So we eat while we're on the earth, and we'll eat in the resurrection, when we have new glorified bodies--at least I should think so! When Jesus ate on earth after his resurrection, I think he was still in his old body. He had risen from the dead, and his old body was essentially healed. He still had his scars, and had not yet ascended into heaven to receive his new glorified body. He went through this process to lead the way for us to do the same.

I'm not sure what you want me to address? I think departed saints are now in heaven with Christ. They don't have bodies yet, and don't eat. They are waiting for us, so that we can all put on new bodies at the same time.

Resurrection does not mean God gathers our old body parts and the elements that our bodies consisted of. Those parts are scattered everywhere, and become parts of other human bodies, sometimes. We're not going to share parts!

So resurrection simply means our own dead bodies are reconstituted into new bodies, even with the creation of new elements. We are "raised up" from old bodies to new bodies. What makes it a "resurrection" is that our old bodies are dead and gone. So we can receive our new glorified bodies in heaven when Christ is ready to do so.

 

[randyk]

Precious friend, "what this means here" is: Are the departed in Christ in heaven, *today* still asleep {NOT glorified yet!}, OR: Are they "awake in CHRIST," {glorified}?
Did you somehow MISS The Scriptural Answer to ewq1938 in post #4,311 ?

I had read it, but I didn't fully understand where you were coming from? I still don't--don't really know you yet. I don't know whether you're into "soul sleep" or something else? I just gave you my rudimentary view, that the glorification event happens *at the Coming of Christ on the Last Day.*

If you ask where the departed saints are *now,* I would have to say they are awake presently with Christ in heaven, in the form of bodiless spirits. They have not yet been glorified. When the Scriptures say they are "asleep," it means their bodies appear to be sleeping when they die, because they are in a state of physical unconsciousness.

So, continuing this Great Pre- vs Post- Discussion, let us ask this question:

What do you do with the view that The Head of the Pre-trib Body Of CHRIST,
"CHRIST Gathers us TO Himself, changing us into "glorified bodies," meeting
us in the air," and continues in the SAME Direction, To Be Judged At The
Bema Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, In Heaven, And "Presents us with hearts
unblameable in holiness TO HIS Father!"

I don't believe Christ *continues in the same direction. We are called upwards to heaven for the express purpose of meeting Christ. We do not continue beyond there, because when we meet Christ it is for the express purpose of receiving our glorified bodies.

In fact, this is the precise moment at which Christ returns, because we are told that we are caught up to him just as he begins his descent. The whole doctrine of his coming springs from Dan 7, where the Son of Man is portrayed as coming with the clouds of heaven. That is, he is *descending from heaven.*

And so, it is at this precise moment that we are caught up to him, if we are still living. It will be just as he prepares to make his descent. Those already with Christ--the departed--will at the same moment of time receive their own glorified bodies, and participate together with us in his descent from heaven. It will constitute a revelation of Christ's Kingdom on earth, regardless of what this may look like. Our rule will be established, together with Christ, upon the earth. Where we will rule from I don't claim to know.

The KING of kings comes to the earth, completes the battle of Armageddon,
sets up His Throne Of Glory, And THEN, HE Blows Another trumpet
[AFTER the so-called LAST "trumpet of the 7th angel], and sends out
HIS army {Singular}, of angels to:

Gather {not "rapture"} the sheep And the goats Of ISRAEL And the nations for judgment, to see who does/does Not "enter into His 1000-year kingdom"
on earth!?

or, Combine THEM BOTH {prophecy And MYSTERY} together
for a post-trib rapture? (reading Romans-Philemon into
Matthew {where the MYSTERY IS UNKNOWN!} and Revelation,
or vice versa?)

Be Blessed!

Yes, Jesus comes both with his angels and with his saints when he comes to Armageddon, to destroy the army of Antichrist. This will be a *postrib coming,* because that is exactly how it is portrayed in Dan 7. And it is from Dan 7 that the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church originates. It began as a promise to Israel. And then that promise was extended to the Church. And it is all fulfilled in the pattern of Christ, who first went to the cross, suffered tribulation, and then was raised from the dead. And then he ascended into heaven to receive his glorified body. Finally, he will return from heaven to establish his Kingdom on the earth.

 

[GaryA]

Compare the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns of the chart/table on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

I believe the Trumpet Events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.

I've seen the chart. I don't see any 3.5 yr gap between end of Trib and Millennial reighn.

Did you examine ALL of the 'Trumpet' column verses - from top to bottom?

And it doesn't make sense. When Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent, it is to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon AND set up His reign.

The Second Coming of Christ is not aligned with the end of the Trib; rather, the arrival of the Two Witnesses "on the scene" is aligned with the end of the Trib.

I believe Jesus returns "very shortly after" the Two Witnesses are raised up after being killed.

Do you see where Armageddon is on the chart?

The time of the Two Witnesses coincides with the Trumpet Events - because, the Two Witnesses cause them to come about.

Go look at the chart/table on the web page linked to in post #3842.

Put two and two together.

Look closely...

Who kills the Two Witnesses?

Where did they come from?

Could/Would they ascend out of the bottomless pit before it was opened?

Of course not.

Would you say the Two Winesses are killed at some point in time after Trumpet 5 is initiated?

( Just nod your head up and down and say 'yes'. )

Would you say the prophecy and testimony of the Two Witnesses occurred before that time?

( Just nod your head up and down and say 'yes'. )

2 + 2 = 4

In Matthew 24, there is a 3.5 year span of time between the start of verse 29 and the start of verse 30. It is the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events.

 

[ewq1938]

The Adressat of the text are the jews. They will be on earth while the tribulation. Out of them 144000 will be sealed: 12000 from each of the 12 tribes. The church is nowhere mentioned in connection with the tribulation time.

They are part of the church. The first believers, the first Body of Christ, the first to compose "The Church" and the first to become Christ's Bride were the 12 disciples who were Jewish. Gentiles were later allowed to join the Church/body of Christ and become His Bride.



1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

 

[GaryA]

NOTHING in Matt24-25 (or ANYWHERE ELSE in His Olivet Discourse) speaks of "our Rapture" event.

Matthew 24:31 does...