666 = Emperor Constantine Augustus

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no speculation. There is only calculation in obedience to the Word of God. I do not toss aside the Word of Christ as you would have me do. I obey it. I study it. I believe it. And I calculate with precision and understanding according to the wisdom of God that has been given to me. If this upsets you, that's your problem. I give this out to those of understanding who desire to know the truth.

Constantine did nothing for the church but corrupt it more than any other factor in the history of the world has ever corrupted it and that is all he did. He left a lasting legacy of abomination commonly called by the profane the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church but known the spiritual as the Whore of Babylon, the Beast of Two Horns with the False Prophet.

Constantine was the pagan high priest. And brought paganism into the church. He is babylon. and stated babylon.

He will be destroyed (his church) when babylon (the great harlot) is destroyed. He wil be destroyed by the very beast you claim is him.

 

[1disciple]

It seems that some are wanting to take this thread in the direction of a discussion Daniel.

If you want to discuss the Daniel timeline and how it relates to Matthew 24 and Revelation you can go to my timeline I've provided.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...eline-42-month-siege-jerusalem-d-66-70-a.html

Revelation 13:18 has nothing to do with the siege of Jerusalem as it prophecied of the second beast after the time of the first beast with 7 heads.

Thank you for staying focussed and cluttering up this thread and study with as little nonsense as possible.

 

[RedTent]

There is no speculation. There is only calculation in obedience to the Word of God. I do not toss aside the Word of Christ as you would have me do. I obey it. I study it. I believe it. And I calculate with precision and understanding according to the wisdom of God that has been given to me. If this upsets you, that's your problem. I give this out to those of understanding who desire to know the truth.

Constantine did nothing for the church but corrupt it more than any other factor in the history of the world has ever corrupted it and that is all he did. He left a lasting legacy of abomination commonly called by the profane the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church but known the spiritual as the Whore of Babylon, the Beast of Two Horns with the False Prophet.

Now you are talking! That Constantine corrupted the church and we are still listening to the ways he corrupted it. I think this should be carefully looked at with prayer and listening to God.

I also think you are wrong in saying that it was only corruption he did! I think God used him also for our good, just as God used Babylon and their kings. I think we should carefully look at that as well as the way he corrupted.

We are not to take our eyes off God, so we blanket condemn something without listening to what God says about something. Constantine made Christianity a new religion, separate from all God had done in the thousands of years before Christ. Constantine allowed Christians to freely spread the word, and not only made Christians feel free to not live a Jewish lifestyle, but made them feel it was right to do so they didn't let their prejudice against that keep them from Christ.

Now, we need to look closer at such as changing all the holidays God gave to creating new ones not from God's word. It is being questioned for the first time in way over a thousand years.

 

[1disciple]

Constantine was the pagan high priest. And brought paganism into the church. He is babylon. and stated babylon.

He will be destroyed (his church) when babylon (the great harlot) is destroyed. He wil be destroyed by the very beast you claim is him.

Constantine, as official Pontifex Maximus, was a pagan high priest. The difference is that he was the first Pontifex Maximus (great Bridgebuilder and steward of all gods of Rome) of Christendized Rome and thus was the first Pontifex Maximus of the combined Catholic Church of the latter Roman Empire. Every Pontifex Maximus since that time has been the outer head of that beast with two horns and that beast known as Catholicism worldwide will be destroyed at the coming of Christ at the Last Judgement.

 

[1disciple]

@RedTent

I condemn no one. He was condemned, known and judged in the prophecy of the Book of Revelation centuries before he was ever even born. All I did was calculate the number of the man.

 

[1disciple]

what does that have to do with anything? That does not prove your point.

Was Constantine not the head of the beast with two horns, being Eastern and Western Roman empires with all the power of the former beast?

Does המלך הקונסטנטינוס האוגוסטוס not equal 666?

 

[Bookends]

Rev. 13:18 never says anything about a first century Christian. It simply says, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Are you assuming that the Revelation was given for first century Christians only?

Mostly yes. It was written to them yes, but like all of the books of the bible which were written for them in their epic of time, but for us to gleam spiritual wisdom and guidance. Galatians was written to the Galatians, Timothy was written to Timothy, etc. etc. but all was written for us....Revelation 1 sets the stage for the whole book. Most of Revelation was written to prophecy the Lord's vindication to 1st century Christians, and justice of the Lord regarding the apostate/spiritual adulterous wife of God, the nation of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital, and the fall and justice of the 4th Satanic kingdom, ancient Rome. It was John's future, it is our past, save the last few chapters. Why people can't see the connection between Revelation and the OT symbols eludes me. Also all the time indicators and "things which must soon/shortly take place" and "near at hand" and 7 kings of Rev. 17 fits nicely beginning with Julius Caesar and ending with Galba ( Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time),... Not only that, but Nero also fits the number of 600 60 and 6 in the greek, and also in the Latin 616 (which supports my view even the more). So ancient Rome was the corporate beast of Revelation and Nero was it's head, or individual beast.

So while you guys dispute over who's who and when all will happen and I can confidently confirm most of Revelation fulfilled. But all that said thank God eschatology doesn't save us. Have fun hashing it all out! Peace.

 

[1disciple]

@Bookends

The only way that Nero can be made to fit a calculation off 666 is with a defective and unusual spelling of Neron. Furthermore, it cannot possibly be referring to Nero as Nero was the sixth head of the first beast. 666 pertains to the second beast. Therefore, it must refer to an emperor after the time of the first seven emperors of Rome--after Vespasian, no earlier than 81 A.D. It must also refer to a head of two horns (powers) and one who comes looking like the Lamb but speaking like the dragon.

So while you go on with your 1st century only Revelation doctrine, I'll go on with the everlasting Good Current of Jesus Christ for all his servants for all times including the 4th century A.D.

 

[RedTent]

I repeat, it makes no difference if he is a two headed etc. or any of that. But it DOES make a difference how we are to act on what we know. Our churches are basing their doctrine on the doctrine that Constantine decided on for the churches, Nero as the sixth head and 666 pertaining to the second beast is beside the point, except that Constantine led us away from God.

What we need now is not deciding on heads of beasts, but on what to do about the wrong way Constantine led us.

 

[Bookends]

lol.. I never said ALL now did I.

seemed to me like that's what you were implying.

Daniel also prophesied of the city of jerusalem being destroyed after messiah was cut off. Did this happen during the time the readers he wrote to lived?

no, but it started then. Neither did I say that ALL prophecy was fulfilled quickly, not all prophesy are the same, they are all different in nature and purpose.

He also prophesied of 4 kingdoms. Only two of which were around during his lifetime. The other two came long after he and his origional readers died.

agreed, but that does mean Revelation has to follow suit. And some of Revelation won't be fulfilled till Christ comes again.

Don't discount what I said.. [\quote] I won't, don't discount what I say too.

Shortly can also be translated quickly meaning

1. These things would come on scene, and all take place in a short time
2. These things will happen a short time after he finishes writting.

either interpretation could be correct. I did not support your theory. It could go both ways.
[/B][/COLOR]

well, give a biblical example of #1 please, I can't think of one (and yes, I know it doesn't mean that John couldn't have changed the meaning, but I doubt it). As I recall, soon, shortly, near at hand, always meant something was eminent, right around the corner.

Not sure what this means.

you said, "But it is also directed to the people alive at the time..",I believe you are correct, that Revelation was directed to the people alive at the time, 1st century Christians.

Again Prophesy has always spoke of events in near future or events in long future, And the words were written for everyone. Only only assumes revelation was written for people alive then. And not like MUCH ot prophesy, for them, and everyone else who would ever read. and the people alive at the time.,

well, this is our difference. I'm don't quite understand what your are saying here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was Constantine not the head of the beast with two horns, being Eastern and Western Roman empires with all the power of the former beast?

Does המלך הקונסטנטינוס האוגוסטוס not equal 666?

Who was the ten horned beast? Who did COnstantine kill (three kings) to get the other 7 kings to give him authority?

Again, You have to take the OT prophesy with the new. If your going to refuse to do this. There is nothing we can discuss.

Constantine was part of the legs of Iron. He was at the end when the fatal wound was being placed on the roman empire. He was not part of the ten toes of Iron and clay. Come on now.. and you want to mock me?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Constantine, as official Pontifex Maximus, was a pagan high priest. The difference is that he was the first Pontifex Maximus (great Bridgebuilder and steward of all gods of Rome) of Christendized Rome and thus was the first Pontifex Maximus of the combined Catholic Church of the latter Roman Empire. Every Pontifex Maximus since that time has been the outer head of that beast with two horns and that beast known as Catholicism worldwide will be destroyed at the coming of Christ at the Last Judgement.

Thanks for proving he is babylon. Not the beast.

so why do you want to make roman catholic church the beast? You make no sense..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems that some are wanting to take this thread in the direction of a discussion Daniel.

If you want to discuss the Daniel timeline and how it relates to Matthew 24 and Revelation you can go to my timeline I've provided.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...eline-42-month-siege-jerusalem-d-66-70-a.html

Revelation 13:18 has nothing to do with the siege of Jerusalem as it prophecied of the second beast after the time of the first beast with 7 heads.

Thank you for staying focussed and cluttering up this thread and study with as little nonsense as possible.

1. The seige of jersualem is only part of the prophesy of daniel
2. Daniel also speaks of things which happens after the siege.

The beast is the final gentile ruler of Daniels beasts.

Your the one who is discussing this beast. If you do not wish to go to daniel to find everything we can to know of him, you have no reason to be here discussing prophesy period!

 

[Bookends]

@Bookends

The only way that Nero can be made to fit a calculation off 666 is with a defective and unusual spelling of Neron. Furthermore, it cannot possibly be referring to Nero as Nero was the sixth head of the first beast. 666 pertains to the second beast. Therefore, it must refer to an emperor after the time of the first seven emperors of Rome--after Vespasian, no earlier than 81 A.D. It must also refer to a head of two horns (powers) and one who comes looking like the Lamb but speaking like the dragon.

So while you go on with your 1st century only Revelation doctrine, I'll go on with the everlasting Good Current of Jesus Christ for all his servants for all times including the 4th century A.D.

On the Contrary, the Jews reading this book would have made the connection of Nero written in Greek to their language in which the language requires one to place n after any name ending in o. Below from Wikipedia:Number of the beast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[h=3]Neron Caesar[edit source | editbeta][/h]

Bust of Nero at Musei Capitolini, Rome​

It is widely accepted by many scholars that Roman Emperor Nero (ruling 54–68) is the first Beast of Revelation 13. This interpretation was received by enumerating his name and title Neron Caesar[SUP][28][/SUP] to the Number of the Beast.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][29][/SUP][SUP][30][/SUP] An Aramaic scroll from Murabba'at, dated to "the second year of Emperor Nero", refers to him by his name and title[SUP][31][/SUP] where in Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (pronounced "Nerōn Kaisar"), and in Latin it is Nro Qsr(pronounced "Nerō Kaisar").[SUP][32][/SUP]
Nron QsrThe Greek version of the name and title transliterates into Hebrew as נרון קסר, and yields a numerical value of 666:[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP]
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]Resh (ר)[/TD]
[TD]Samekh (ס)[/TD]
[TD]Qoph (ק)[/TD]
[TD]Nun (נ)[/TD]
[TD]Vav (ו)[/TD]
[TD]Resh (ר)[/TD]
[TD]Nun (נ)[/TD]
[TD]Sum[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]100[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]666[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Nro QsrThe Latin version of the name drops the second Nun (נ), so that it appears as Nro and transliterates into Hebrew as נרו קסר, yielding 616:[SUP][4][/SUP]
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]Resh (ר)[/TD]
[TD]Samekh (ס)[/TD]
[TD]Qoph (ק)[/TD]
[TD]Vav (ו)[/TD]
[TD]Resh (ר)[/TD]
[TD]Nun (נ)[/TD]
[TD]Sum[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]100[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]616[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Here's another source: The Mark Of The Beast

 

[eternally-gratefull]

seemed to me like that's what you were implying.

Well hopefully now you know I was not.

no, but it started then. Neither did I say that ALL prophecy was fulfilled quickly, not all prophesy are the same, they are all different in nature and purpose. agreed, but that does mean Revelation has to follow suit. And some of Revelation won't be fulfilled till Christ comes again.

That was not my point bro. I am trying to show that just because it says "shortly" does not mean it all had to happen then. If your using this as proof. It is a poor proof.

Daniel was alive and experience the first two parts of his beasts (babylon and media-persia) just like the people of revelation where there to witness the beginning of revelation. It does not mean they experienced the rest of it.

Revelation was written to the servants of God.

I am a servant of God. thus it was written to me, and anyone who ever "reads the words of this prophesy"

I won't, don't discount what I say too.

I am not. I am just giving a different opinion.

well, give a biblical example of #1 please, I can't think of one (and yes, I know it doesn't mean that John couldn't have changed the meaning, but I doubt it). As I recall, soon, shortly, near at hand, always meant something was eminent, right around the corner.

Thats an assumption. I try not to make my doctrinal views based on assumptions. Thats why I study the whole book. take it with the OT prophesies, and try to make them all line up.

You think it happend in 70 AD.. I don't that is what separates us. and that is all my friend.

you said, "[/B][/COLOR]But it is also directed to the people alive at the time..",I believe you are correct, that Revelation was directed to the people alive at the time, 1st century Christians.well, this is our difference. I'm don't quite understand what your are saying here.

I meant, Like the people in the time of Christ should have seen the signs of prophesy which was written to the people hundreds of years before they were born. And KNOWN not only that Jesus was the christ, But that the week he entered jerusalem was prophesied, and they should have seen it. The same thing could be said with revelation. The people alive at the second comming of Christ will see these signs, And know the end is near. and be able to persevere through the extreme tribulation and persecution. And KNOW these things will happen (quickly) so they can "endure to the end" and be saved As jesus said in matt 24.

 

[Bookends]

@Bookends

The only way that Nero can be made to fit a calculation off 666 is with a defective and unusual spelling of Neron. Furthermore, it cannot possibly be referring to Nero as Nero was the sixth head of the first beast. 666 pertains to the second beast. Therefore, it must refer to an emperor after the time of the first seven emperors of Rome--after Vespasian, no earlier than 81 A.D. It must also refer to a head of two horns (powers) and one who comes looking like the Lamb but speaking like the dragon.

So while you go on with your 1st century only Revelation doctrine, I'll go on with the everlasting Good Current of Jesus Christ for all his servants for all times including the 4th century A.D.

Also, it doesn't pertain to the second beast, the second beast is the nation of Israel who sits on the Beast of Rome. 1st century Israel road on the beast (Rome) in that they where completely dependent of Rome for their economy, Laws, justice, and military protection.

 

[Bookends]

Well hopefully now you know I was not.




That was not my point bro. I am trying to show that just because it says "shortly" does not mean it all had to happen then. If your using this as proof. It is a poor proof.

Daniel was alive and experience the first two parts of his beasts (babylon and media-persia) just like the people of revelation where there to witness the beginning of revelation. It does not mean they experienced the rest of it.

Revelation was written to the servants of God.

I am a servant of God. thus it was written to me, and anyone who ever "reads the words of this prophesy"




I am not. I am just giving a different opinion.



Thats an assumption. I try not to make my doctrinal views based on assumptions. Thats why I study the whole book. take it with the OT prophesies, and try to make them all line up.

You think it happend in 70 AD.. I don't that is what separates us. and that is all my friend.



I meant, Like the people in the time of Christ should have seen the signs of prophesy which was written to the people hundreds of years before they were born. And KNOWN not only that Jesus was the christ, But that the week he entered jerusalem was prophesied, and they should have seen it. The same thing could be said with revelation. The people alive at the second comming of Christ will see these signs, And know the end is near. and be able to persevere through the extreme tribulation and persecution. And KNOW these things will happen (quickly) so they can "endure to the end" and be saved As jesus said in matt 24.

Lol, don't mention matt. 24 please, you know we agree on that either

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Also, it doesn't pertain to the second beast, the second beast is the nation of Israel who sits on the Beast of Rome. 1st century Israel road on the beast (Rome) in that they where completely dependent of Rome for their economy, Laws, justice, and military protection.

Mind if I ask where you get this? never heard this before.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol, don't mention matt. 24 please, you know we agree on that either

lol.. I know. But I have to mention it. It speaks of the same time

Love ya bro. even though we disagree on this topic. we agree completely with the most important subject and are brothers in Christ!!!

 

[Bookends]

Anyway, I'll let you guys hash it out, I'm out for now...It's not worth it to spend much time here, for we are all pretty much have it set in our minds who these characters are.