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Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. 
You said: Obedience which follows is works. The error of "defining" believing as "obedience/works" results in salvation by works.
I dont understand how doing works for the Lord is seen as works for salvation? Jesus served others. We are to be servants of God. Thats if you belong to Him. So do us as servants who serve and do Gods will, does that constitute as works to you? Does bearing fruit/works evidence of a persons faith contrary to your belief?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Here is a big mistake. You can only lose something you possess.
Salvation is not dying in the second death, the lake of fire. As the lake of fire does not exist today,
and the second death has not taken place, salvation has not happened.
What we can lose is our walk with Christ. The walk to eternal life is by the gate and the narrow path.
By definition the gate is small and the path narrow, so both can be missed.
So all we can do is define what it means to be in Christ, what are the signs of our place on the path,
and what can we encourage to continue on the path.
Our hearts do they rejoice in God? Does His law and His word encourage us to walk deeper or get
angry and want to curse and rip people up?
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, Mark 12:33
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' Luke 10:27
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind Matt 22:36
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deut 6:5
We are called to be devoted to God with everything that we are.
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 13:1-3
If God is not in our hearts, has not become the core of our being then we know were
the problem lies.
Salvation is not dying in the second death, the lake of fire. As the lake of fire does not exist today,
and the second death has not taken place, salvation has not happened.
What we can lose is our walk with Christ. The walk to eternal life is by the gate and the narrow path.
By definition the gate is small and the path narrow, so both can be missed.
So all we can do is define what it means to be in Christ, what are the signs of our place on the path,
and what can we encourage to continue on the path.
Our hearts do they rejoice in God? Does His law and His word encourage us to walk deeper or get
angry and want to curse and rip people up?
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, Mark 12:33
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' Luke 10:27
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind Matt 22:36
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deut 6:5
We are called to be devoted to God with everything that we are.
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 13:1-3
If God is not in our hearts, has not become the core of our being then we know were
the problem lies.
Unbelief is so common on forums such as this.
A tell tale sign is is the following statements :-
1 the church has got it wrong.
2 Theologians do not know what they are talking about.
3 We do not need paid ministers, or churches, or fellowships, we can survive without aids or helps.
4 I have faith, you self righteous hypocrites will rot in hell.
5 Most of the bible is rubbish, I believe this perfect ...... part
6 The heart is desperately wicked and nothing good comes from anyone
7 I have a revelation specially from God and the past ..... years the church has been wrong and lost
Being saved is having Gods word planted in our hearts through the witness of His church.
How the word grows to produce more words of God to pass on to others, is the growth of His body.
And maturity or perfection is reflected in the fruit of the Spirit at work in the hearts of His people.
You will meet such people every day in His body and His fellowships, praise the Lord.
And the elect will never fall or fail, but who they are is hidden, because showing this openly would
cause more harm than good, and the enemy can never disturb the work of the Lords word bearing
fruit in the good soil. So simply walk in the Spirit ministering love and peace to all you meet, Amen.
22 the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:22-24
A tell tale sign is is the following statements :-
1 the church has got it wrong.
2 Theologians do not know what they are talking about.
3 We do not need paid ministers, or churches, or fellowships, we can survive without aids or helps.
4 I have faith, you self righteous hypocrites will rot in hell.
5 Most of the bible is rubbish, I believe this perfect ...... part
6 The heart is desperately wicked and nothing good comes from anyone
7 I have a revelation specially from God and the past ..... years the church has been wrong and lost
Being saved is having Gods word planted in our hearts through the witness of His church.
How the word grows to produce more words of God to pass on to others, is the growth of His body.
And maturity or perfection is reflected in the fruit of the Spirit at work in the hearts of His people.
You will meet such people every day in His body and His fellowships, praise the Lord.
And the elect will never fall or fail, but who they are is hidden, because showing this openly would
cause more harm than good, and the enemy can never disturb the work of the Lords word bearing
fruit in the good soil. So simply walk in the Spirit ministering love and peace to all you meet, Amen.
22 the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:22-24
All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).
Amen! I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then he contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about the RCC does not teach salvation by works, then faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) plus works.
It depends on our motivation for doing works. Doing works as a believer done out of love and gratitude for the Lord are not works for salvation, but are produced after salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, the apostle Paul makes it clear that we are saved through faith, not works, then in verse 10 he goes on to explain that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. There is a big difference between saved FOR good works and saved BY good works. Unbelievers trust in works for salvation and NOT in Christ alone.
Believers are servants of God. There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
AND
Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
When did I say that bearing fruit/works was not the evidence of a person's faith? Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or evidenced the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Amen! I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then he contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about the RCC does not teach salvation by works, then faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) plus works.
It depends on our motivation for doing works. Doing works as a believer done out of love and gratitude for the Lord are not works for salvation, but are produced after salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, the apostle Paul makes it clear that we are saved through faith, not works, then in verse 10 he goes on to explain that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. There is a big difference between saved FOR good works and saved BY good works. Unbelievers trust in works for salvation and NOT in Christ alone.
Believers are servants of God. There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
AND
Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
When did I say that bearing fruit/works was not the evidence of a person's faith? Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or evidenced the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
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Faith or a belief or even a delusion or fantasy needs describing when it is summarised.
Everything to do with God the God of Israel and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is centred around
love and the 10 commandments.
Being a sinner who is saved one has to answer how and to what goal or aim?
And the steps need to be explained and laid out so they can be followed.
Most of the disputes here are around what a believer can become in the Spirit, what
born again means and being filled with the Spirit, and thereby what losing this would
look like.
If one has an eternal spirit, which is gained through a faith transaction with Christ,
then obviously this can never be lost. But equally if this eternal spirit appears no matter
the variations of faith, then arguing about these variations is pointless.
The danger is we are not christians discussing a common experience, but differing
faiths using the same bible to interpret our view of God and how we know Him.
So the protestant church may be closer to the faith of the RCC than some here, and some
here may have closer links to non-christian groups than one might imagine.
So gaining salvation and what you believe this is, determines your ideas about its losability
or otherwise. It is ironic when some will claim they know faith, while being so extreme most
bible believing churches would exclude them as heretics.
Everything to do with God the God of Israel and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is centred around
love and the 10 commandments.
Being a sinner who is saved one has to answer how and to what goal or aim?
And the steps need to be explained and laid out so they can be followed.
Most of the disputes here are around what a believer can become in the Spirit, what
born again means and being filled with the Spirit, and thereby what losing this would
look like.
If one has an eternal spirit, which is gained through a faith transaction with Christ,
then obviously this can never be lost. But equally if this eternal spirit appears no matter
the variations of faith, then arguing about these variations is pointless.
The danger is we are not christians discussing a common experience, but differing
faiths using the same bible to interpret our view of God and how we know Him.
So the protestant church may be closer to the faith of the RCC than some here, and some
here may have closer links to non-christian groups than one might imagine.
So gaining salvation and what you believe this is, determines your ideas about its losability
or otherwise. It is ironic when some will claim they know faith, while being so extreme most
bible believing churches would exclude them as heretics.
E
Yep this really proves your point!
Woohoo. You go boy, Have fun EARNING your salvation.
For us blind people who depend SOLELY on Christ to save us because we can see just enough to know and understand our works are as filthy rags, and we can not saved by our own righteousness and have fallen as the Tax Collector and repented and called out to God to save us, We went home justified, and will CONTINUE to trust in Christ.
Woohoo. You go boy, Have fun EARNING your salvation.
For us blind people who depend SOLELY on Christ to save us because we can see just enough to know and understand our works are as filthy rags, and we can not saved by our own righteousness and have fallen as the Tax Collector and repented and called out to God to save us, We went home justified, and will CONTINUE to trust in Christ.
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E
If I can lose salvation, it means I must Let (consent for) Jesus to maintain my salvation. .
.
Can you maintain your own salvation?
Think about that
Before you supposedly came to christ, You could not do enough to earn salvation. You had to rely on Jesus to save you. Now that you think you have been saved Why do you think you now have the power to maintain your salvation? By what means? By works? Well scripture says your works are as filthy rags so it can’t be that, so what can it be?
Good luck trying to maintain your salvation. As for me? John shows me truth, You know him I think, he wrote a whole book telling us all about God and what he has and is doing for us, And he did it ALL to PROVE to us we HAVE eternal life. And by this TRUTH, we can rest in. Him, and continue to believe in his name.
So yes. WE HAVE TO TRUST CHRIST TO MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION.
If he does not, we are lost.. And he promises UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE will he ever let us go.. If your son was trying to jump off a cliff to kill himself. Would you let him go. Or would you hold on for dear life, risking your own life in the process?
Thats what God does for his children..
LoL. "Yup. they definitely thought they were saved." That's the point. Your circular reasoning this. Basically your saying if someone says they are saved and later repudiate Christ that they were really not ever saved, at least certainly not by the blood of Christ. My personal experience has been that many once evangelical OSAS professors have openly repudiated Christ and the main reason seemed always to be about money in some way. And you now would claim, well they were not really saved, certainly not OSAS, even though at one point they strongly proclaimed the OSAS philosophy . And that's just the point. They, when proclaiming their OSAS, hadn't yet lived "tomorrow". One of the serious dangers of OSAS mindset is presumption. An incident I have never forgotten happened several years ago at a weekly early morning bible study (at a restaurant across from the train station; before the train left to go downtown Chicago to work). About 8-12 men normally attended. I was one of them. During the bible study, verses about prayer, one of the youngest men (mid 20s) said since he got saved (it was a OSAS believing church and most of the people there were of OSAS churches) he didn't pray anymore. His pastor was there and the pastor was visibly taken aback. Some of the men started telling the young man about the necessity of prayer, a relationship with God, rewards, etc. The young man basically said. Relax guys, I am perfectly content, I don't need crowns and rewards. I will be in heaven no matter what. COMPLETE SILENCE. Every one knew the young man was 100% correct if OSAS is correct. There was Nothing they could say and the general discomfort was palatable for the rest of the study time, not from the young man, but from the others. OSAS is a delusion of Satan to put people in the "lost" category, as Satan knows the only thing that gets one lost is sin, and these poor people come to a mindset where sin doesn't REALLY matter anymore for them.
