A Case for Not Reading The Bible Literally

[Davidstarr]

I think we've narrowed the disagreement to where it really belongs.

I agree that Sheol and Hades are often closely related concepts, and I agree that Scripture's emphasis is overwhelmingly on the resurrection rather than on disembodied existence.
I also agree that many Christians speak far more confidently about what happens immediately after death than the biblical text itself sometimes warrants.

However, I would still hesitate to say that Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire all mean exactly the same thing.
The biblical writers use different terms in different contexts, and those differences need to be accounted for rather than flattened into a single concept.

As for Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8, I think we've arrived at the crucial question.
You are no longer arguing merely: "Philippians 1:23 doesn't mean being with Christ."
You are arguing:
"Philippians 1:23 does mean being with Christ, but that experience occurs at the resurrection, which is the next conscious moment experienced by the believer."
That is a much stronger and more coherent argument than simply dismissing the verse.

Where I still remain unconvinced is with 2 Corinthians 5.
In Philippians 1, I can see how your explanation works.
In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul's contrast between "at home in the body" and "present with the Lord" still strikes me as more immediate. Nevertheless, I admit the text does not explicitly state a timeline.
I also think your criticism of my appeal to Acts 2 has some merit.
Peter certainly says: "David is both dead and buried" (Acts 2:29)
and "David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2:34).
The text does not explicitly insert the qualification "as the Messiah."
That qualification is part of an interpretation of Peter's argument, not part of the wording itself.

So if I'm being fair to your position, I would summarize it this way:
The dead are repeatedly described as asleep.
The dead have no thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, or conscious activity.
David had not ascended to heaven.
Believers receive their reward and crowns at Christ's return.
Therefore Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 must be understood in a way that harmonizes with those statements.
That's a coherent argument.
My hesitation is simply that I still think Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 naturally sound like more than that.
But I would agree that your position is attempting to harmonize all the texts, not ignore some of them, and I think that's an important distinction.

Truth be told; I don't think the lake of fire is literal. I think it is allegorical. And does not exist yet.
Rev 20 shows fire comes out of heaven to destroy the wicked, and also this entire world is reduced to ashes.
This does not happen until after the 1,000 years of Rev 20.
Picture looking at an entire burning planet from a distance out in space.
It would appear to be a huge lake of fire covering the entire world.
The symbolic imagery of throwing people into this lake of fire is actually the lake of fire being thrown upon the wicked.

 

[OMC]

Truth be told; I don't think the lake of fire is literal. I think it is allegorical. And does not exist yet.
Rev 20 shows fire comes out of heaven to destroy the wicked, and also this entire world is reduced to ashes.
This does not happen until after the 1,000 years of Rev 20.
Picture looking at an entire burning planet from a distance out in space.
It would appear to be a huge lake of fire covering the entire world.
The symbolic imagery of throwing people into this lake of fire is actually the lake of fire being thrown upon the wicked.

I think that's a possible interpretation, and I actually agree that many people assume the lake of fire must be a literal, eternally burning pit without first asking whether Revelation is using symbolic imagery.

Your observation that Revelation 20 places the final judgment after the thousand years is correct.
Fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours the wicked (Rev. 20:9), and only then do we read of the lake of fire.
So I can understand why you would see a connection between the global judgment by fire and the imagery of a "lake of fire."

Where I would be cautious is saying the lake of fire is nothing more than a symbolic description of a burning planet.
Revelation explicitly calls it "the second death" (Rev. 20:14; 21:8), which suggests the image is communicating a theological reality, not merely a geographical location.
In that sense, I think we agree that the emphasis is on final destruction and judgment rather than the mechanics of a physical lake.

I also think your view has the advantage of taking seriously passages such as Malachi 4:1-3, where the wicked are consumed and become ashes under the feet of the righteous.
That language naturally fits annihilation much more easily than endless conscious torment.

My hesitation is simply that Revelation is highly symbolic, and therefore I would be careful about mapping every symbol directly onto a specific physical event.
The lake of fire may represent the final divine judgment that results in the destruction of the wicked, whether that judgment involves a planet-wide conflagration or something more profound than the imagery itself describes.

So I would say your interpretation is plausible as an explanation of the imagery.
What still needs to be demonstrated is that Revelation intended the lake of fire specifically as a symbolic description of the earth engulfed in judgment-fire, rather than as a broader symbol for the final and irreversible judgment of God.
Those ideas may overlap, but they are not necessarily identical.

 

[Inquisitor]

Law (Covenant Law): Legal codes and religious rules given to ancient Israel (e.g., parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).

I did not understand "e.g., parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy"?

 

[ScooterJackson]

I think that's a possible interpretation, and I actually agree that many people assume the lake of fire must be a literal, eternally burning pit without first asking whether Revelation is using symbolic imagery.

Jesus said it was real and the torment would be everlasting.

Is it possible Jesus is right and those teaching annihilationism are wrong?

I'm going with Jesus being correct myself.

 

[Inquisitor]

that if I do not find discomfort, exposure and humility in every book, I may be slipping into confirmation

I do believe we all suffer from some level of "confirmation" when reading the scripture.

 

[biblestudent78]

I did not understand "e.g., parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy"?

Yes parts

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes parts

What does that mean?

I thought the covenant law was given to Israel only.

Romans 9:1-4
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and
unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants
and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.

What parts of Exodus, Leviticus?

 

[biblestudent78]

Jesus said it was real and the torment would be everlasting.

Is it possible Jesus is right and those teaching annihilationism are wrong?

I'm going with Jesus being correct myself.

ScooterJackson:
It is easy to select statement by Jesus that can lead to a hell of eternal conscious torment, but not all Jesus's words.
Whether Jesus declared hell to be a place of eternal conscious torment is a subject is debated among biblical scholars as His recorded words can be interpreted in multiple ways. While the historic majority view within Christianity holds that Jesus taught eternal conscious punishment, a significant counter-position known as annihilationism argues that Jesus viewed hell as literal destruction—meaning the wicked cease to existJesus did not explicitly use the phrase "eternal conscious torment," but interpreters point to several key phrases in the Gospels to support different theological views:

1. Arguments for Eternal Torment

Proponents of the traditional view—Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)—rely heavily on the specific vocabulary Jesus used to describe the finality and severity of judgment:
• "Eternal Punishment": In Matthew 25:46, Jesus states that the wicked "will go away into eternal punishment (kolasis aionios), but the righteous into eternal life." Traditionalists argue that for punishment to be parallel to eternal life, it must be consciously experienced forever.
• Unquenchable Fire and the Worm: In Mark 9:43–48, Jesus references Gehenna as a place "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched," quoting the final verse of the Book of Isaiah to depict an unending consequence.
• Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth: Jesus frequently uses this phrase (such as in Matthew 8:12 and Matthew 13:42) to describe the emotional and physical distress of those excluded from the Kingdom of God.
• The Rich Man and Lazarus: In the parable found in Luke 16:19–31, Jesus depicts a wealthy man experiencing conscious agony and thirst in Hades immediately after death, though scholars debate whether this parable is meant to be a literal blueprint of the final hell.

2. Arguments for Annihilation (Conditional Immortality)

Annihilationist scholars look at the very same passages but argue that Jesus’s primary metaphors focus on total destruction and death, rather than ongoing preservation in pain:
• Destruction of Soul and Body: In Matthew 10:28, Jesus explicitly warns: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Annihilationists argue "destroy" implies an end to existence, not eternal maintenance.
• The Meaning of "Eternal Punishment": Scholars supporting conditional immortality argue that "eternal punishment" means a punishment with eternal consequences (i.e., irreversible death or capital punishment), not an eternal process of punishing.
• The Gehenna Imagery: Gehenna was a literal valley outside Jerusalem associated with burning refuse and historical slaughter. Annihilationists point out that in the Old Testament context Jesus quotes (Isaiah 66:24), the fire and worms consume dead carcasses, symbolizing total consumption and eradication, not living people being tortured forever.

 

[ScooterJackson]

It is easy to select statement by Jesus that can lead to a hell of eternal conscious torment, but not all Jesus's words.

Did Jesus contradict Himself?
If He did that would make Him a liar.

Whether Jesus declared hell to be a place of eternal conscious torment is a subject is debated among biblical scholars

Only for the "scholars" who are children of the devil. The tares Jesus warned about

His recorded words can be interpreted in multiple ways

Yeah, that's what satan told Adam and Eve in the garden.

 

[Davidstarr]

I think that's a possible interpretation, and I actually agree that many people assume the lake of fire must be a literal, eternally burning pit without first asking whether Revelation is using symbolic imagery.

Your observation that Revelation 20 places the final judgment after the thousand years is correct.
Fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours the wicked (Rev. 20:9), and only then do we read of the lake of fire.
So I can understand why you would see a connection between the global judgment by fire and the imagery of a "lake of fire."

Where I would be cautious is saying the lake of fire is nothing more than a symbolic description of a burning planet.
Revelation explicitly calls it "the second death" (Rev. 20:14; 21:8), which suggests the image is communicating a theological reality, not merely a geographical location.
In that sense, I think we agree that the emphasis is on final destruction and judgment rather than the mechanics of a physical lake.

I also think your view has the advantage of taking seriously passages such as Malachi 4:1-3, where the wicked are consumed and become ashes under the feet of the righteous.
That language naturally fits annihilation much more easily than endless conscious torment.

My hesitation is simply that Revelation is highly symbolic, and therefore I would be careful about mapping every symbol directly onto a specific physical event.
The lake of fire may represent the final divine judgment that results in the destruction of the wicked, whether that judgment involves a planet-wide conflagration or something more profound than the imagery itself describes.

So I would say your interpretation is plausible as an explanation of the imagery.
What still needs to be demonstrated is that Revelation intended the lake of fire specifically as a symbolic description of the earth engulfed in judgment-fire, rather than as a broader symbol for the final and irreversible judgment of God.
Those ideas may overlap, but they are not necessarily identical.

Death by fire IS the final, irreversible judgement of God.

Mal 4:1-3 and Rev 20 are not the only texts that speak of the world being destroyed by fire either.

 

[Davidstarr]

Jesus said it was real and the torment would be everlasting.

Is it possible Jesus is right and those teaching annihilationism are wrong?

I'm going with Jesus being correct myself.

Where does Jesus say the "torment" is everlasting?

 

[biblestudent78]

I think we've narrowed the disagreement to where it really belongs.

I agree that Sheol and Hades are often closely related concepts, and I agree that Scripture's emphasis is overwhelmingly on the resurrection rather than on disembodied existence.
I also agree that many Christians speak far more confidently about what happens immediately after death than the biblical text itself sometimes warrants.

However, I would still hesitate to say that Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire all mean exactly the same thing.
The biblical writers use different terms in different contexts, and those differences need to be accounted for rather than flattened into a single concept.

As for Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8, I think we've arrived at the crucial question.
You are no longer arguing merely: "Philippians 1:23 doesn't mean being with Christ."
You are arguing:
"Philippians 1:23 does mean being with Christ, but that experience occurs at the resurrection, which is the next conscious moment experienced by the believer."
That is a much stronger and more coherent argument than simply dismissing the verse.

Where I still remain unconvinced is with 2 Corinthians 5.
In Philippians 1, I can see how your explanation works.
In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul's contrast between "at home in the body" and "present with the Lord" still strikes me as more immediate. Nevertheless, I admit the text does not explicitly state a timeline.
I also think your criticism of my appeal to Acts 2 has some merit.
Peter certainly says: "David is both dead and buried" (Acts 2:29)
and "David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2:34).
The text does not explicitly insert the qualification "as the Messiah."
That qualification is part of an interpretation of Peter's argument, not part of the wording itself.

So if I'm being fair to your position, I would summarize it this way:
The dead are repeatedly described as asleep.
The dead have no thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, or conscious activity.
David had not ascended to heaven.
Believers receive their reward and crowns at Christ's return.
Therefore Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 must be understood in a way that harmonizes with those statements.
That's a coherent argument.
My hesitation is simply that I still think Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 naturally sound like more than that.
But I would agree that your position is attempting to harmonize all the texts, not ignore some of them, and I think that's an important distinction.

OMC:
Again much agreement, but let me inject a little strangeness into the question of what happens to the dead. Matthew 27:51-52 is part of the story of Jesus's crucifixion. "Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart and tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised. (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) As there was not yet a collection of dead Christian saints, who were possible "saints" to the gospel writers of 60-90 AD who came out of their graves?

 

[OMC]

Jesus said it was real and the torment would be everlasting.

Is it possible Jesus is right and those teaching annihilationism are wrong?

I'm going with Jesus being correct myself.

Of course it is possible that Jesus is right and an annihilationist interpretation is wrong.
In fact, that is exactly the question that must be settled from Scripture, not from our preferences.
My concern is not with Jesus' authority, but with what Jesus actually meant in the passages being discussed.

For example, when Jesus speaks of "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46), annihilationists argue that the punishment is everlasting because the result, death, is permanent.
Traditionalists argue that the punishment is everlasting because the conscious suffering is everlasting.
Likewise, when Jesus speaks of "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48), traditionalists see eternal conscious torment, while annihilationists point to Old Testament judgment imagery where unquenchable fire consumes until nothing remains.

So I don't think the disagreement is between "believing Jesus" and "not believing Jesus."
Both sides appeal to Jesus.
The disagreement is over what He meant.

Where I would agree with you is that we need to be very careful not to explain away passages simply because they don't fit our system.
If Jesus taught eternal conscious punishment, then annihilationism is wrong.
If Jesus taught final destruction resulting in irreversible death, then eternal torment is wrong.
The solution is not to force the text into a theological box, but to let all the relevant passages speak.

Personally, I think any doctrine of final judgment must account for all the relevant texts, just as any doctrine of the intermediate state must account for all the relevant texts. That principle cuts both ways.

 

[OMC]

Death by fire IS the final, irreversible judgement of God.

Mal 4:1-3 and Rev 20 are not the only texts that speak of the world being destroyed by fire either.

I think that's the heart of your argument, and it's a substantial one.

If Revelation 20 defines the lake of fire as "the second death" (Rev. 20:14), and if passages like Malachi 4:1-3 describe the wicked being burned up, leaving "neither root nor branch" and becoming ashes under the feet of the righteous, then the annihilationist position can legitimately argue that final judgment results in destruction rather than perpetual conscious existence.

You are also correct that Malachi 4 is not the only fire-judgment passage.
Scripture repeatedly speaks of the wicked being consumed, devoured, burned up, cut off, destroyed, and perishing.
Those texts must be accounted for.

Where the debate remains is that other passages appear to describe ongoing punishment.
That is why the discussion has persisted for centuries.
The issue is not whether there is fire, judgment, or death.
Everyone agrees there is.
The issue is whether "the second death" is the permanent result of a completed judgment or an ongoing state of conscious punishment.

I would say your argument gains strength from Revelation itself calling the lake of fire the second death rather than the second life in torment.
Death normally suggests the cessation of life, not its continuation in another form.
That is one reason annihilationists find the language compelling.

At the same time, I would still want to examine every relevant text before concluding the matter is settled.
The strongest case is never built from one passage alone, but from the cumulative testimony of Scripture.

But I do agree with this much: if the wicked are ultimately reduced to ashes, as Malachi says, and if the lake of fire is identified as the second death, then the burden is on the eternal conscious torment position to explain how those descriptions fit with unending conscious existence.

 

[OMC]

OMC:
Again much agreement, but let me inject a little strangeness into the question of what happens to the dead. Matthew 27:51-52 is part of the story of Jesus's crucifixion. "Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart and tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised. (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) As there was not yet a collection of dead Christian saints, who were possible "saints" to the gospel writers of 60-90 AD who came out of their graves?

That's actually a fascinating question, and one that cuts across both sides of the discussion.

The word "saints" (hagioi) simply means "holy ones" or "set-apart ones."
It is not limited to New Testament Christians.
The Greek Old Testament regularly uses the term for God's faithful people, and Daniel speaks of "the saints of the most High" long before Pentecost (Dan. 7:18, 22, 27).

So if Matthew says: "the bodies of many saints which slept arose" (Matt. 27:52), the most natural candidates would be faithful Old Testament believers.
We are not told their names.
They could have included prophets, righteous Israelites, or other servants of God who had died prior to Christ's resurrection.
What makes the passage especially interesting for our discussion is that Matthew does not say these saints were already alive in heaven and temporarily returned.
He says: "the bodies of many saints which slept arose."
The language is resurrection language.

In fact, whatever one's view of the intermediate state, this text places the emphasis on bodies coming out of tombs after Christ's resurrection.
That fits the broader biblical theme that victory over death is demonstrated through resurrection.

At the same time, I don't think the passage settles the soul-sleep debate by itself.
A person holding a conscious-intermediate-state view could simply say these saints were in God's presence and then resurrected.
A soul-sleep advocate could say they were unconscious until raised.
Matthew doesn't address that question directly.

What he does tell us is that the "saints" were people who had died before Christ's resurrection and that their bodies were raised and appeared to many in Jerusalem.
The passage therefore seems to be presenting Christ's resurrection as the decisive turning point in God's victory over death.

So my answer would be: the "saints" were almost certainly not dead Christians from the church age, but faithful believers from before Christ's resurrection.
The really interesting question is not who they were, but why Matthew includes the event.
I suspect his point is that Christ's resurrection immediately began to demonstrate His authority over the grave itself.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Of course it is possible that Jesus is right

Possible that Jesus is right huh?
I got news for you, He is the only One Who is right.

The annihilationists are tares, children of the devil seeking to trick people in to believing the Lord Jesus doesn't know what He's stalking about. This is how satan operates just like we saw with Adam and Eve in the garden - tricking people in to not believing the Lord with deception.

that is exactly the question that must be settled from Scripture, not from our preferences

Jesus settled it for me.
Others can advocate for satan's point of view if they'd like and they'll spend eternity with him being tormented.

 

[OMC]

Possible that Jesus is right huh?
I got news for you, He is the only One Who is right.

The annihilationists are tares, children of the devil seeking to trick people in to believing the Lord Jesus doesn't know what He's stalking about. This is how satan operates just like we saw with Adam and Eve in the garden - tricking people in to not believing the Lord with deception.

The question is not whether Jesus is right, but whether we are interpreting Jesus correctly.

You seem to be assuming that if someone disagrees with your interpretation of the passages on final judgment, they are therefore calling Jesus a liar.
But annihilationists would say exactly the opposite.
They would argue that they are taking seriously Jesus' warnings about destruction, perishing, death, and being burned up.

The issue is not: "Do we believe Jesus?"
The issue is: "What did Jesus mean?"

I would also be careful about declaring everyone who disagrees with you to be "tares" and "children of the devil."
There have been sincere, Bible-believing Christians on both sides of this discussion who have sought to submit themselves to Scripture.
If the doctrine is false, then demonstrate it from the text.
Calling fellow professing Christians children of the devil settles nothing.

You rightly appeal to Jesus as the final authority.
So let's let Jesus speak.
Show from His words why "death," "destruction," "perish," "the second death," and the wicked becoming ashes cannot mean what annihilationists say they mean.
That would be a stronger argument than simply assuming disagreement proves bad faith.

The moment we start treating every theological disagreement as evidence that someone is a tare, we stop discussing Scripture and start judging hearts. God knows the hearts. Our task is to reason from the text.