A Closer Look at God’s Election

[dougcho]

The apostles view of man
Paul and Peter explain to us that unredeemed man is just NOT able
to believe in Jesus and the Gospel … due to a multitude of reasons!
(These are available in the opening post of the thread:
“Unable to Believe the ‘Foolish’ Gospel”)

No chance to be saved ---BUT --- With God it is possible!
“He (Jesus) said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter
the kingdom of God.” And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:25-27)

Jesus explains Father God’s intervention
“All that the Father gives Me (Jesus) will come to Me … This is the will of the Father who
sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing … No one CAN come to Me unless
the Father who sent Me DRAWS him.” … And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that
no one CAN come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:37-65)
● The word “CAN” refers to ability (or in this case, the lack of ability).
Jesus was saying, “No one is able to come to Me unless the Father intervenes.”
● The Greek word for “DRAW” used here is “helko” (Strong’s #1670).
Kittel’s Theological Dictionary defines “helko” as: “to compel by irresistible superiority”.
Other New Testament uses of this word “helko” are …
“Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?” (James 2:6)
“… they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace” (Acts 16:19)
Man is not wanting to come, he is not even willing to come … he must be dragged!

More about Father God giving His people to Jesus
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish …
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all …” (John 10:27-29)
“… that He (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as You (Father God) have given Him.” (John 17:2)
“Here am I (Jesus) and the children whom God has given Me.” (Hebrews 2:13)

Jesus gets to choose, not us!
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you ... I chose you out of the world” (John 15:16-19)

Paul defends God’s righteousness and His authority
“… that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand,
not of works but of Him who calls … What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
So then, it is not of him who wills (to be saved), nor of him who runs (works for it),
but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
This last verse (9:16) is absolutely fatal to Arminianism
Man does not choose to believe and be saved …
God chooses who will be saved … e.g. Lydia in Acts 16:14,
where He “opened her heart” so she could believe what Paul was preaching.
*** Does God do this for everyone? *** ● Lydia was “a worshiper of God”,
and if God needed to do this for her, surely He needs to do it for everyone!

We are saved by the power of God
“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
This power of God starts with His giving the necessary faith to those He has chosen.

The above is part of the Reformed view of predestination
Some famous theologians who believed in the Reformed view of predestination are:
St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

 

[Jimbone]

Nice breakdown and I agree. I also think the biggest reason there's a debate about election and exactly what it means is this false idea that election means we don't have a choice. We choose, without a doubt we are told to choose this day who you will serve. We have choice, and at the exact same time as you were highlighting, we are also not able, as the fallen man, to even seek after God. If God didn't draw us in then no man would ever come to Him. To me this is just one of the greatest mysteries beyond my ability to grasp, amongst many. How on earth does Gods sovereignty and our will (our choices, enslaved by sin by the way) work together to bring about His perfect plan? I do not know or even start to grasp even a hint of how this might work. I don't know.

The thing is though, I really don't care either. I believe it because His word clearly says it and the Spirit is confirming it as I'm being sanctified. I know these days we have to break everything down and label it, name it, and classify it to firmly separate ourselves into groups. I get why it happens and even understand why it's necessary to a point, but now people are so quick to divide over anything to the point it seems rare to have an actual intellectual exchange in good faith with someone who disagrees It seems we're just running up, planting our flags ready to fight to the death to protect and spread the way we believe, without ever even taking the time to ever ask the other person a deeper question about the issue. To see if you and the other people are really as far apart on these things as you think you are. I'm coming to see, especially in the Church world, that a lot of times a disagreement comes from looking at the same exact thing in different ways. Both are accurate, both come to the same ultimate conclusion, but the perspectives are just really different. Not anything we can't honestly come to common ground on, and just isn't anything worth dividing the body for, yet the divisions for these things have raged for centuries now. In my opinion anyway.

 

[tttallison]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

 

[foolishone]

Ephesians 2:8-9
"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"
2 Peter 1:1
"This faith was GIVEN TO YOU because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior"

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Jimbone]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

ALL God. You/we have NO reason to boast ever. I know this is counter to our thought process and everything we know having lived in the flesh only our whole lives up to rebirth, but even if you're saved by going to His word, believing it, and turning from your way and praying He saves you, and Him doing it then and there. Even in this situation "you" don't get credit for "your choice". That actually had so little to do with your salvation in truth to almost be irrelevant. God draws you to Him, God grants you repentance, and God transforms you no matter how the mechanics of it play out. Look I understand this is a real blow to our pride. We want to feel like we played some part in "getting us there", but the truth is that God gets ALL the glory for our salvation and we get none because that's how it's rightly divided up. God did it all, we did nothing and didn't deserve the grace we were given. That's just how great our God is.

 

[foolishone]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

ALL God. You/we have NO reason to boast ever. I know this is counter to our thought process and everything we know having lived in the flesh only our whole lives up to rebirth, but even if you're saved by going to His word, believing it, and turning from your way and praying He saves you, and Him doing it then and there. Even in this situation "you" don't get credit for "your choice". That actually had so little to do with your salvation in truth to almost be irrelevant. God draws you to Him, God grants you repentance, and God transforms you no matter how the mechanics of it play out. Look I understand this is a real blow to our pride. We want to feel like we played some part in "getting us there", but the truth is that God gets ALL the glory for our salvation and we get none because that's how it's rightly divided up. God did it all, we did nothing and didn't deserve the grace we were given. That's just how great our God is.

Well said. And Yeshua says "Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. "
So after we recieve this gift we remain secure when we abide in Christ. Prayer and studying His word, and letting the Ho;y Spirit work in our lives. The evidence is the fruit.

 

[homwardbound]

The apostles view of man
Paul and Peter explain to us that unredeemed man is just NOT able
to believe in Jesus and the Gospel … due to a multitude of reasons!
(These are available in the opening post of the thread:
“Unable to Believe the ‘Foolish’ Gospel”)

No chance to be saved ---BUT --- With God it is possible!
“He (Jesus) said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter
the kingdom of God.” And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He said,
“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:25-27)

Jesus explains Father God’s intervention
“All that the Father gives Me (Jesus) will come to Me … This is the will of the Father who
sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing … No one CAN come to Me unless
the Father who sent Me DRAWS him.” … And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that
no one CAN come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:37-65)
● The word “CAN” refers to ability (or in this case, the lack of ability).
Jesus was saying, “No one is able to come to Me unless the Father intervenes.”
● The Greek word for “DRAW” used here is “helko” (Strong’s #1670).
Kittel’s Theological Dictionary defines “helko” as: “to compel by irresistible superiority”.
Other New Testament uses of this word “helko” are …
“Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?” (James 2:6)
“… they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace” (Acts 16:19)
Man is not wanting to come, he is not even willing to come … he must be dragged!

More about Father God giving His people to Jesus
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish …
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all …” (John 10:27-29)
“… that He (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as You (Father God) have given Him.” (John 17:2)
“Here am I (Jesus) and the children whom God has given Me.” (Hebrews 2:13)

Jesus gets to choose, not us!
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you ... I chose you out of the world” (John 15:16-19)

Paul defends God’s righteousness and His authority
“… that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand,
not of works but of Him who calls … What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
So then, it is not of him who wills (to be saved), nor of him who runs (works for it),
but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
This last verse (9:16) is absolutely fatal to Arminianism
Man does not choose to believe and be saved …
God chooses who will be saved … e.g. Lydia in Acts 16:14,
where He “opened her heart” so she could believe what Paul was preaching.
*** Does God do this for everyone? *** ● Lydia was “a worshiper of God”,
and if God needed to do this for her, surely He needs to do it for everyone!

We are saved by the power of God
“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
This power of God starts with His giving the necessary faith to those He has chosen.

The above is part of the Reformed view of predestination
Some famous theologians who believed in the Reformed view of predestination are:
St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

God has called all, yet not all will believe God's call. Yet each and every soul will have heard and chosen, to be new in God's sight and see are given from my Father in risen Son for us to stand as in Col. 1 tells me and all others also
for he went to that cross once for us all to choose yo believe to trust God Father and Son for them too, Hebrews 10:10 is what I see God as righteous over us all, thank you Father for the fairness of you in spite of the first born mean flesh nature that wants control; it is not me any more, only sin thAt swells with in an unredeemed body of flesh and blood per Romans 7 I now see to be dead to that Romans 6 thank you

 

[tttallison]

ALL God. You/we have NO reason to boast ever. I know this is counter to our thought process and everything we know having lived in the flesh only our whole lives up to rebirth, but even if you're saved by going to His word, believing it, and turning from your way and praying He saves you, and Him doing it then and there. Even in this situation "you" don't get credit for "your choice". That actually had so little to do with your salvation in truth to almost be irrelevant. God draws you to Him, God grants you repentance, and God transforms you no matter how the mechanics of it play out. Look I understand this is a real blow to our pride. We want to feel like we played some part in "getting us there", but the truth is that God gets ALL the glory for our salvation and we get none because that's how it's rightly divided up. God did it all, we did nothing and didn't deserve the grace we were given. That's just how great our God is.

The question was is it God's faith, or our faith. If we are saved by faith, is it our faith? Seemed like a pretty simple question which requires only a simple answer.

 

[Jimbone]

The question was is it God's faith, or our faith. If we are saved by faith, is it our faith? Seemed like a pretty simple question which requires only a simple answer.

Fair enough. Our faith is from us. But it's not what saves us. Simple enough?

Also so we don't get were our faith comes from mixed up. Rom 12:3

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Who assigns it? ALL God.

 

[Cameron143]

The question was is it God's faith, or our faith. If we are saved by faith, is it our faith? Seemed like a pretty simple question which requires only a simple answer.

We are saved by grace. Faith is the vehicle God employs to make known what Jesus has done on our behalf.

 

[MeowFlower]

We are saved by grace. Faith is the vehicle God employs to make known what Jesus has done on our behalf.

True.
I don't know how any Christian can insist they are not sealed and saved for all time.

There is nothing in scripture that teaches this.

God calls us. We are not saved by our doing,we are saved by the grace of God. A free irrevocable gift.

Those who insist that is not true?
They don't know what irrevocable means I guess.

Plus,they're saying God made a mistake calling us to his irrevocable grace gift because he didn't know we would later choose to give his gift back.

In effect saying, so much for Omniscience on his part.

 

[dougcho]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

The KJV has always had it as "the faith OF Jesus".
But most (all?) of the newer versions have it as "the faith IN Jesus".
The total opposite!
Jesus faith for us extends all the way to where
... He intercedes for us before the Father.
And our faith must last until our death.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

God gives it as a gift, we then exercise it.

 

[dougcho]

God calls us. We are not saved by our doing, we are saved by the grace of God.
A free irrevocable gift..

Father God starts by choosing us, but not everyone.
He draws us to Jesus, who also chooses all of us.
IMO, backed up by the NT.

Do we have free will to reject God's grace?
There are multitudes of NT verses that say:
God guarantees us who have received the Holy Spirit
(i.e. we who have been born again) that ...
we will make it to Heaven!

 

[MeowFlower]

I do not understand this dilemma . We are saved by faith. Is it our faith or God's faith?

God's.

 

[dougcho]

“To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours …” (2 Peter 1:1 - NASB, NLT)

I wonder where they received their faith from?
Could it be from the same source as Lydia? ... in Acts 16:14

 

[tttallison]

Well said. And Yeshua says "Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. "
So after we recieve this gift we remain secure when we abide in Christ. Prayer and studying His word, and letting the Ho;y Spirit work in our lives. The evidence is the fruit.

Still no answer to a simple question. A one-word answer was all I was looking for.

Fair enough. Our faith is from us. But it's not what saves us. Simple enough?

Also so we don't get were our faith comes from mixed up. Rom 12:3

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Who assigns it? ALL God.

Thank you for your answer to the question which was, it is our faith? My next question is can we be saved without it?

 

[Rosemaryx]

ALL God. You/we have NO reason to boast ever. I know this is counter to our thought process and everything we know having lived in the flesh only our whole lives up to rebirth, but even if you're saved by going to His word, believing it, and turning from your way and praying He saves you, and Him doing it then and there. Even in this situation "you" don't get credit for "your choice". That actually had so little to do with your salvation in truth to almost be irrelevant. God draws you to Him, God grants you repentance, and God transforms you no matter how the mechanics of it play out. Look I understand this is a real blow to our pride. We want to feel like we played some part in "getting us there", but the truth is that God gets ALL the glory for our salvation and we get none because that's how it's rightly divided up. God did it all, we did nothing and didn't deserve the grace we were given. That's just how great our God is.

Amen \/

 

[GWH]

God gives it as a gift, we then exercise it.

Yes, God graces us with the ability to reject His salvation, and when we exercise that ability, it is NOT meritorious or earning or working for salvation!

 

[Jimbone]

True.
I don't know how any Christian can insist they are not sealed and saved for all time.

There is nothing in scripture that teaches this.

God calls us. We are not saved by our doing,we are saved by the grace of God. A free irrevocable gift.

Those who insist that is not true?
They don't know what irrevocable means I guess.

Plus,they're saying God made a mistake calling us to his irrevocable grace gift because he didn't know we would later choose to give his gift back.

In effect saying, so much for Omniscience on his part.

Not only this, but when you take a step back and look at what you're actually arguing for, they don't seem to grasp that they're arguing for a weaker, less powerful, much more ignorant God that does pointless things like save people that will reject Him and go to Hell anyway. I get why they do feel and believe this way, I really do. I came to the same conclusions at first when reading these few verses that do look like they are clearly saying we can fall away and lose salvation. So I get it, I've thought the exact same thing while I was truly born-again saved in truth. The thing is it just never set completely right with me fully and I'd always have to throw a qualifier in when I'd make my case. like "I could never walk away from Him, and don't see how anyone could, but I believe I could choose to walk away if I wanted to.
God wouldn't take my free will after I used it to choose Him would He. God doesn't make me "stuck" in Him does He. It couldn't be that we freely come to Him and are then made slaves of His, not able to choose to walk away if I want to. So I get it. This is a hard subject for us in the modern day especially.

Having been born again I am now connected to God by His Spirit as are ALL in Jesus, and He leads us to all truth, and what He did was show me that I did not choose Him, I was drawn to Him by His power. I did not decide to see my life for what it was in truth and turn away from it, I was granted repentance. I did not then grab my Bible and read the rules so I could now obey God, His Spirit has transformed me in power to shed some of these things overnight and then to His word to guide me to all truth while His power sanctifies me and uses me for His glory.

What I found is that the belief that we can lose the gift that we didn't earn comes from 1 major problem. Far too great a view of the power of men, and far too small a view of the power of God. I also just wanted to add that once God showed me this I found that it doesn't contradict His word at all, that His word wasn't saying two different things, that the closer you get to truth the more it fits the WHOLE of scripture. His word is amazing. I also as an ex-false convert want to add that this argument about losing salvation is much easier to make when you haven't ever experienced His power in truth. A power we may all have come to in different circumstances, but that we who have been born again all know without question. I can't lie that when I here a Christian teach that "we all have doubts", I don't disagree to a degree, but as a Christian I have NO doubt that God is real, I have NO doubt that Jesus is His Son and the ZONLY way to reconciliation with our Creator, and I don't have any doubt that I'm saved and connected to God. None. And I know that has to come across as arrogant like I'm boasting in my certainty, but I didn't make myself certain and I get and want NO credit for it. Jesus gets every single bit of ALL that, because it was the power of my rebirth that opened my eyes to the FACT that God is REAL, Jesus is REAL, that I I was born with a dead spirit that couldn't ever see life outside of Jesus sacrifice and Gods perfect plan. When He resurrected that spirit to life and reconnected it to His, brother that lifted the veil and opened my eyes to something they can no longer be shut to. I may have doubts about how this works here, or how that over there's going to play out, but as far as doubt about God and Jesus being REAL in REAL LIFE. He killed that with the old me. This is also the power they argue that they could walk away from. You can't. ALL God, none us.