A Closer Look at God’s Election

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tttallison

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#21
Sep 20, 2024
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#21
Jimbone said:
Fair enough. Our faith is from us. But it's not what saves us. Simple enough?

Also so we don't get were our faith comes from mixed up. Rom 12:3

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Who assigns it? ALL God.
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Can we be saved without faith?
 
Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
#23
May 3, 2017
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#23
Jimbone said:
Not only this, but when you take a step back and look at what you're actually arguing for, they don't seem to grasp that they're arguing for a weaker, less powerful, much more ignorant God that does pointless things like save people that will reject Him and go to Hell anyway. I get why they do feel and believe this way, I really do. I came to the same conclusions at first when reading these few verses that do look like they are clearly saying we can fall away and lose salvation. So I get it, I've thought the exact same thing while I was truly born-again saved in truth. The thing is it just never set completely right with me fully and I'd always have to throw a qualifier in when I'd make my case. like "I could never walk away from Him, and don't see how anyone could, but I believe I could choose to walk away if I wanted to.
God wouldn't take my free will after I used it to choose Him would He. God doesn't make me "stuck" in Him does He. It couldn't be that we freely come to Him and are then made slaves of His, not able to choose to walk away if I want to. So I get it. This is a hard subject for us in the modern day especially.

Having been born again I am now connected to God by His Spirit as are ALL in Jesus, and He leads us to all truth, and what He did was show me that I did not choose Him, I was drawn to Him by His power. I did not decide to see my life for what it was in truth and turn away from it, I was granted repentance. I did not then grab my Bible and read the rules so I could now obey God, His Spirit has transformed me in power to shed some of these things overnight and then to His word to guide me to all truth while His power sanctifies me and uses me for His glory.

What I found is that the belief that we can lose the gift that we didn't earn comes from 1 major problem. Far too great a view of the power of men, and far too small a view of the power of God. I also just wanted to add that once God showed me this I found that it doesn't contradict His word at all, that His word wasn't saying two different things, that the closer you get to truth the more it fits the WHOLE of scripture. His word is amazing. I also as an ex-false convert want to add that this argument about losing salvation is much easier to make when you haven't ever experienced His power in truth. A power we may all have come to in different circumstances, but that we who have been born again all know without question. I can't lie that when I here a Christian teach that "we all have doubts", I don't disagree to a degree, but as a Christian I have NO doubt that God is real, I have NO doubt that Jesus is His Son and the ZONLY way to reconciliation with our Creator, and I don't have any doubt that I'm saved and connected to God. None. And I know that has to come across as arrogant like I'm boasting in my certainty, but I didn't make myself certain and I get and want NO credit for it. Jesus gets every single bit of ALL that, because it was the power of my rebirth that opened my eyes to the FACT that God is REAL, Jesus is REAL, that I I was born with a dead spirit that couldn't ever see life outside of Jesus sacrifice and Gods perfect plan. When He resurrected that spirit to life and reconnected it to His, brother that lifted the veil and opened my eyes to something they can no longer be shut to. I may have doubts about how this works here, or how that over there's going to play out, but as far as doubt about God and Jesus being REAL in REAL LIFE. He killed that with the old me. This is also the power they argue that they could walk away from. You can't. ALL God, none us.
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This was a beautiful read...I can so see myself your Testimony...I mean after six yrs of my Salvation , having doubts if I was saved or not , the Holy gave me what I was lacking , and that was His assurence...Once He opened my eyes to my lack of understanding , it just caused me to Worship God even more , in Spirit and in Truth...
@Jimbone ...Thank you for posting this...Amen...
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#29
Mar 1, 2022
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#29
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's as unedifying as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin
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Let's try it this way. Go back to the post you addressed. Someone asked if faith was necessary to salvation. My answer was no, but that was the common way that God employs to affect salvation.

There exist those who are not capable of faith. This doesn't limit God's ability to save. So great is the God of our salvation and so tenderhearted is He towards the lost, and so driven is the great Shepherd of the sheep, that there exists no obstacle that will frustrate the love of God from reaching those God sets His affections upon.

Hope you are edified at the consideration of the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#31
Mar 1, 2022
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#31
tttallison said:
Can we be saved without it?


Can God lie?
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No. Men can misunderstand. In general, God employs faith as an element of salvation. This doesn't limit God to only saving in this way. Some do not have the capacity for faith. God is still able to save such people.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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#32
Aug 22, 2014
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#32
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's as unedifying as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin
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Unedifying? What on earth could be more "unedifying" than teaching you can lose salvation? Teaching Gods not powerful enough to keep those who He saves, and even worse He has no clue who will throw His gift back into His face because it seems Satan is the better choice after all. Don't come with calling Cameron's comments unedifying in a thread where the main point of one side is to prove Gods weak ignorance and pointless actions.

Unedifying, I actually laughed out load in the office when I read that.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead

Active member
#33
Nov 1, 2024
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#33
Cameron143 said:
Let's try it this way. Go back to the post you addressed. Someone asked if faith was necessary to salvation. My answer was no, but that was the common way that God employs to affect salvation.

There exist those who are not capable of faith. This doesn't limit God's ability to save. So great is the God of our salvation and so tenderhearted is He towards the lost, and so driven is the great Shepherd of the sheep, that there exists no obstacle that will frustrate the love of God from reaching those God sets His affections upon.

Hope you are edified at the consideration of the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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No I'm not edified. It's putting a stumbling block in front of others to say they can be saved without faith. It serves absolutely no purpose other than stroking your ego.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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#35
Aug 22, 2014
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#35
So is the ego at play when you think it's your choice and free will that saved you? Because I think the EXACT SAME about those who teach salvation can be lost if you don't obey good enough. I believe those that believe they "choose God" are themselves trying to usurp glory and credit from God to keep for themselves. They have to hold fast to something that "they did" in the process because the idea we have absolutely no control at all in the matter crushes egos.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#36
Aug 22, 2014
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#36
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
No I'm not edified. It's putting a stumbling block in front of others to say they can be saved without faith. It serves absolutely no purpose other than stroking your ego.
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Can I ask you a question?
Do you think we play a part in our own salvation at all? Do you believe the natural man can seek for and come to God? Do you believe it is even possible to love God at all in and of ourselves?
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead

Active member
#37
Nov 1, 2024
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#37
Jimbone said:
So is the ego at play when you think it's your choice and free will that saved you? Because I think the EXACT SAME about those who teach salvation can be lost if you don't obey good enough. I believe those that believe they "choose God" are themselves trying to usurp glory and credit from God to keep for themselves. They have to hold fast to something that "they did" in the process because the idea we have absolutely no control at all in the matter crushes egos.
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Yes they have to hold fast to faith and the gospel to be saved. The belief that someone can be saved without faith is a gnostic idea.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead

Active member
#38
Nov 1, 2024
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#38
Jimbone said:
Can I ask you a question?
Do you think we play a part in our own salvation at all? Do you believe the natural man can seek for and come to God? Do you believe it is even possible to love God at all in and of ourselves?
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When we are enabled by God through the holy spirit we are able to obey his words
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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#39
Aug 22, 2014
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#39
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Yes they have to hold fast to faith and the gospel to be saved. The belief that someone can be saved without faith is a gnostic idea.
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Okay agreed, but how do they hold fast? By their own power or is it by the power of God they are able?

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
When we are enabled by God through the holy spirit we are able to obey his words
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Agreed, it's ALL by the power of His Spirit and none by our will. We have NO reason to boast. Gods power is what keeps us, not our obedience. So if it's all Gods power doing this, does God fail? I say no, and those who teach we can lose salvation say that God does fail in this.
 
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