A KISSed History of Beliefs

[OMC]

After Trajan, the RE declined as non-Christian (pagan or heathen) Germanic tribes (Goths, Franks, Alemanni, Saxons, Thuringians, etc.) gained strength. Germanic and Norse religion was polytheistic, with Odin as chief god. Its earliest extant source document is the Eddas (probably composed about 850). During the reign of Diocletian, the RE was divided east and west in 285, until it was reunited by Constantine in 308, who ended the persecution of Christians with an edict in 313. He moved the capitol to Constantinople in 331. During his reign a council in Nicaea in 325 adopted the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit.

An early version of what later became the Apostles’ Creed, called the “Old Roman Creed,” was in use as early as the second century, but the earliest written form of this creed is found in a letter that Marcellus of Ancyra wrote in Greek to Julius, the bishop of Rome, about AD 341. The text is as follows:

I believe in God the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence he will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, [life everlasting].

Following the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 381, the Nicene Creed was further supplemented with the following:

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father;
who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Any comments on these creeds?

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only‑begotten…”
This is biblical if understood correctly.
Correction:
“Only‑begotten” (μονογενής) does NOT mean “begotten” in a biological or metaphysical sense. It means unique, one‑of‑a‑kind, the only one of His nature.
Scripture: μονογενής used of Isaac — Heb 11:17 Isaac was not “begotten” in eternity; he was unique.
Therefore:
“Son of God” — biblical
“Only‑begotten” — biblical if defined as “unique Son”
“Begotten before all ages” — not found in Scripture
“Light of Light, true God of true God”
This is theological language, not biblical language.
It is meant to affirm Christ’s full deity — which is biblical:
“The Word was God.” — John 1:1
“My Lord and my God.” — John 20:28
But the phrase “Light of Light” is not a biblical expression. It is metaphorical, not doctrinal.
True in meaning, Not biblical wording.
“Begotten not made, of one essence with the Father”
This is the most debated line in the Nicene Creed.
Correction:
“Begotten not made” — not a biblical phrase
“One essence (ὁμοούσιος) with the Father” — not a biblical phrase
Scripture teaches:
The Son is eternal (John 1:1–2)
The Son is divine (John 1:1)
The Son is distinct from the Father (John 1:1–2)
The Son is not created (Col 1:16–17)
But Scripture never uses the philosophical term homoousios (“same essence”).
The meaning is defensible
The wording is extra‑biblical
“Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven…”
Biblical:
“I came down from heaven.” — John 6:38
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.” — 1 Tim 1:15
“Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary”
Biblical:
“Conceived of the Holy Spirit.” — Matt 1:20
“Born of a virgin.” — Isa 7:14, Matt 1:23
“Crucified under Pontius Pilate… suffered… buried… rose again the third day…”
All biblical:
Crucified under Pilate — Matt 27:26
Suffered — Isa 53:3–5
Buried — Matt 27:59–60
Rose third day — 1 Cor 15:4
“Ascended… sits at the right hand… will come again to judge…”
All biblical:
Ascended — Acts 1:9
Right hand — Ps 110:1, Heb 1:3
Judge living and dead — Acts 10:42
“Whose kingdom shall have no end.”
Biblical:
“Of His kingdom there shall be no end.” — Luke 1:33
“And in the Holy Spirit.”
Biblical:
“The Holy Spirit is God.” — Acts 5:3–4
“The holy Church”
Biblical:
“The church of the living God.” — 1 Tim 3:15
“The remission of sins”
Biblical:
“Forgiveness of sins.” — Acts 10:43
“The resurrection of the flesh”
Biblical:
“The dead will be raised.” — 1 Cor 15:52
“The Holy Spirit… who proceeds from the Father”
Biblical:
“The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father.” — John 15:26 (The later Western addition “and the Son” (Filioque) is not in Scripture.)
“Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified”
Biblical in meaning:
The Spirit is divine — Acts 5:3–4
The Spirit is worshipped implicitly (He is God)
True in doctrine Not a biblical phrase
“One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”
Correction:
“Holy” — biblical
“Apostolic” — biblical
“Catholic” — not a biblical word
“Catholic” originally meant universal, not Roman. But Scripture never uses the term.
Meaning is acceptable
Word is extra‑biblical
“One baptism for the remission of sins”
Correction:
This is ambiguous and can be misunderstood.
Scripture teaches:
Baptism is commanded — Matt 28:19
Baptism symbolizes union with Christ — Rom 6:3–4
Forgiveness is through Christ’s blood — Eph 1:7
The creed’s wording can be misread as baptismal regeneration, which Scripture does not teach. Baptism is important but Baptism does not cause remission of sins.
“Life of the world to come”
Biblical:
“Eternal life.” — John 3:16
It had been years since I've been through this. Thanks for the exercise.

 

[GWH]

There are still their descendants related in the Samis peoples (tengrists) In Lovozero they have their own high culture and representation with untouchable festivities that have lasted centuries
is a beauty your garments all

Do you know more about their current beliefs beyond that they revere the god of the sky or heaven?

 

[GWH]

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only‑begotten…”
This is biblical if understood correctly.
Correction:
“Only‑begotten” (μονογενής) does NOT mean “begotten” in a biological or metaphysical sense. It means unique, one‑of‑a‑kind, the only one of His nature.
Scripture: μονογενής used of Isaac — Heb 11:17 Isaac was not “begotten” in eternity; he was unique.
Therefore:
“Son of God” — biblical
“Only‑begotten” — biblical if defined as “unique Son”
“Begotten before all ages” — not found in Scripture
“Light of Light, true God of true God”
This is theological language, not biblical language.
It is meant to affirm Christ’s full deity — which is biblical:
“The Word was God.” — John 1:1
“My Lord and my God.” — John 20:28
But the phrase “Light of Light” is not a biblical expression. It is metaphorical, not doctrinal.
True in meaning, Not biblical wording.
“Begotten not made, of one essence with the Father”
This is the most debated line in the Nicene Creed.
Correction:
“Begotten not made” — not a biblical phrase
“One essence (ὁμοούσιος) with the Father” — not a biblical phrase
Scripture teaches:
The Son is eternal (John 1:1–2)
The Son is divine (John 1:1)
The Son is distinct from the Father (John 1:1–2)
The Son is not created (Col 1:16–17)
But Scripture never uses the philosophical term homoousios (“same essence”).
The meaning is defensible
The wording is extra‑biblical
“Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven…”
Biblical:
“I came down from heaven.” — John 6:38
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.” — 1 Tim 1:15
“Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary”
Biblical:
“Conceived of the Holy Spirit.” — Matt 1:20
“Born of a virgin.” — Isa 7:14, Matt 1:23
“Crucified under Pontius Pilate… suffered… buried… rose again the third day…”
All biblical:
Crucified under Pilate — Matt 27:26
Suffered — Isa 53:3–5
Buried — Matt 27:59–60
Rose third day — 1 Cor 15:4
“Ascended… sits at the right hand… will come again to judge…”
All biblical:
Ascended — Acts 1:9
Right hand — Ps 110:1, Heb 1:3
Judge living and dead — Acts 10:42
“Whose kingdom shall have no end.”
Biblical:
“Of His kingdom there shall be no end.” — Luke 1:33
“And in the Holy Spirit.”
Biblical:
“The Holy Spirit is God.” — Acts 5:3–4
“The holy Church”
Biblical:
“The church of the living God.” — 1 Tim 3:15
“The remission of sins”
Biblical:
“Forgiveness of sins.” — Acts 10:43
“The resurrection of the flesh”
Biblical:
“The dead will be raised.” — 1 Cor 15:52
“The Holy Spirit… who proceeds from the Father”
Biblical:
“The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father.” — John 15:26 (The later Western addition “and the Son” (Filioque) is not in Scripture.)
“Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified”
Biblical in meaning:
The Spirit is divine — Acts 5:3–4
The Spirit is worshipped implicitly (He is God)
True in doctrine Not a biblical phrase
“One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”
Correction:
“Holy” — biblical
“Apostolic” — biblical
“Catholic” — not a biblical word
“Catholic” originally meant universal, not Roman. But Scripture never uses the term.
Meaning is acceptable
Word is extra‑biblical
“One baptism for the remission of sins”
Correction:
This is ambiguous and can be misunderstood.
Scripture teaches:
Baptism is commanded — Matt 28:19
Baptism symbolizes union with Christ — Rom 6:3–4
Forgiveness is through Christ’s blood — Eph 1:7
The creed’s wording can be misread as baptismal regeneration, which Scripture does not teach. Baptism is important but Baptism does not cause remission of sins.
“Life of the world to come”
Biblical:
“Eternal life.” — John 3:16
It had been years since I've been through this. Thanks for the exercise.

And thank you for that excellent critique. When you catch your breath, I would appreciate you also evaluating my creed:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

As you can see, I cite Scripture showing my attempt to use biblical wording, and my desire is to limit the creed to the minimum truth that God requires folks to believe, at least implicitly, in order to be saved, but not for spiritual growth beyond conversion. How do I do?

 

[OMC]

And thank you for that excellent critique. When you catch your breath, I would appreciate you also evaluating my creed:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

As you can see, I cite Scripture showing my attempt to use biblical wording, and my desire is to limit the creed to the minimum truth that God requires folks to believe, at least implicitly, in order to be saved, but not for spiritual growth beyond conversion. How do I do?

You have certainly covered NT Gospel in its entirety. I have taken the liberty of composing a more condensed version for you. This might not seem as overwhelming to the eyes at first glance.
We believe in one God, holy and merciful, who desires that sinners be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
We confess our sin, that all have fallen short of His glory and stand in need of His grace.
We proclaim Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God, who died for our sins and rose again for our justification.
We receive salvation by repentance and faith, trusting in Christ alone for forgiveness and life.
We confess the gift of the Holy Spirit, who indwells, seals, and renews all who believe.
We affirm the fruit of salvation, that love and obedience flow from true faith by the Spirit’s power.
We rejoice that the gospel fulfills all God’s revelation and leads us into eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GWH]

You have certainly covered NT Gospel in its entirety. I have taken the liberty of composing a more condensed version for you. This might not seem as overwhelming to the eyes at first glance.
We believe in one God, holy and merciful, who desires that sinners be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
We confess our sin, that all have fallen short of His glory and stand in need of His grace.
We proclaim Jesus Christ as the eternal Son of God, who died for our sins and rose again for our justification.
We receive salvation by repentance and faith, trusting in Christ alone for forgiveness and life.
We confess the gift of the Holy Spirit, who indwells, seals, and renews all who believe.
We affirm the fruit of salvation, that love and obedience flow from true faith by the Spirit’s power.
We rejoice that the gospel fulfills all God’s revelation and leads us into eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am glad you agree with my creed, and I agree with your condensed version, although it is important to cite Scripture as support.

I wonder whether you understand and agree with my reason for the recent addition of #6?:

6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

Even more recently (last week) I received the insight that the most primitive but universal truth souls must believe in order to be saved (the soteriological nucleus of GRFS) can be compared to a fractal design. A fractal is a never-ending geometric pattern where a shape repeats itself in smaller and smaller sizes, so that when one zooms in on a fractal design forever, each part is a microcosm of the whole design. What is the soteriological shape/fractal truth in the divine design/plan? God’s Love (1John 4:7-16, Rom. 5:5).

Jesus implied that a child too young to know Scripture can be saved (Matt. 19:14), and Paul indicated every sinner who has ever lived has no excuse for not reflecting the Creator’s good/loving nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:6-11). This kerygmatic truth is the fractal fact all who are saved agree on, no matter which aspect of the hippo/design they see from where they are (in the world/planet earth and at every time in history). This is what may be called the foreshadowed or proto-gospel.

Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

 

[OMC]

I received the insight that the most primitive but universal truth souls must believe in order to be saved

I take pause with this assertion. I am quite sure after the creed I just read, that you know what saves.

 

[GWH]

I take pause with this assertion. I am quite sure after the creed I just read, that you know what saves.

Pausing, reading and reflecting on the Scriptures I shared with you in post #285 is good.
After proper meditation, I think you will agree with that insight also.
If not, I will be interested in learning your reasoning.
HAND

 

[OMC]

Pausing, reading and reflecting on the Scriptures I shared with you in post #285 is good.
After proper meditation, I think you will agree with that insight also.
If not, I will be interested in learning your reasoning.
HAND

fair

 

[GWH]

fair

As you meditate, contemplate the fact that most souls for most of history only had general revelation.

There are two main ways God/Christ is encountered:

1. General revelation (GR), which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, logically beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which began with the OT and refers mainly to divinely inspired NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5): GR, OT & NT. Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way (cf. the fractal metaphor).

 

[OMC]

Even more recently (last week) I received the insight that the most primitive but universal truth souls must believe in order to be saved (the soteriological nucleus of GRFS) can be compared to a fractal design. A fractal is a never-ending geometric pattern where a shape repeats itself in smaller and smaller sizes, so that when one zooms in on a fractal design forever, each part is a microcosm of the whole design. What is the soteriological shape/fractal truth in the divine design/plan? God’s Love (1John 4:7-16, Rom. 5:5).

Jesus implied that a child too young to know Scripture can be saved (Matt. 19:14), and Paul indicated every sinner who has ever lived has no excuse for not reflecting the Creator’s good/loving nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:6-11). This kerygmatic truth is the fractal fact all who are saved agree on, no matter which aspect of the hippo/design they see from where they are (in the world/planet earth and at every time in history). This is what may be called the foreshadowed or proto-gospel.

Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

The scriptural nucleus you’re describing—God’s love as the primal, universally accessible saving truth—is indeed affirmed across the canon, but Scripture frames it not as a “proto‑gospel sufficient for salvation,” but as the universal revelation that renders all humanity accountable.
From creation itself, God’s ἀΐδιος δύναμις and θειότης (Rom. 1:20) display His goodness, generosity, and benevolent care, so that every human being perceives something of the Creator’s moral character.
Jesus affirms that even children, who cannot yet grasp covenantal history or doctrinal complexity, may come to Him (Matt. 19:14).
Paul teaches that every culture manifests some awareness of moral obligation through conscience (Rom. 2:14–16).
Likewise, the “gospel preached beforehand to Abraham” (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23) all show that God has never left Himself without witness.
Yet Scripture consistently presents this universal revelation—not as saving knowledge in itself—but as the fractal‑like pattern that reflects the larger saving reality fulfilled in Christ: God’s love manifested climactically in the Son’s atoning death (1 John 4:9–10) and poured into believers’ hearts by the Spirit (Rom. 5:5).
Thus, the “fractal” of divine love is the universally perceived micro‑pattern of the gospel’s macro‑truth, the moral and spiritual awareness that leaves humanity “without excuse,” but which finds its saving power only when the revealed love of God in Christ is believed. Now I am not perfect so I may be missing something but it's my understanding thus far.

 

[OMC]

There are two main ways God/Christ is encountered:

1. General revelation (GR), which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, logically beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which began with the OT and refers mainly to divinely inspired NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5): GR, OT & NT. Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way (cf. the fractal metaphor).

Your two‑fold structure—general revelation and special revelation—is exactly how Scripture itself frames God’s self‑disclosure, but the biblical emphasis is not that GR itself saves, but that GR universally summons and condemns, while SR redeems. General revelation displays God’s eternal power and divine nature (Rom. 1:20), presses every conscience with moral accountability (Rom. 2:14–16), and echoes the Golden Rule as the intuitive moral law written on human hearts (Matt. 7:12).
It also includes the proto‑gospel foreshadowing Paul identifies: the gospel preached beforehand to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23).
Yet Scripture consistently shows that GR leaves humanity “without excuse,” not “already saved,” because its purpose is to reveal enough of God’s goodness and justice to demand a response. Special revelation, by contrast, unveils the saving work of Christ promised in the OT and fulfilled in the NT (1 Pet. 1:8–12), and it is through this revealed Word that faith comes (Rom. 10:17). The Parable of the Talents illustrates that God judges each person according to the revelation entrusted to them, whether GR, OT, or NT, and that genuine seekers respond to whatever light they have—yet all true seeking ultimately leads to Christ, the one Way to the Father (John 14:6), the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets (Acts 24:14), and the One before whom every knee will bow (Phil. 2:10–11). Thus, all truth is a road whose smaller patterns—like a fractal—reflect the larger saving reality, but salvation itself comes only when the divine pattern is recognized in the person and work of Christ.

 

[GWH]

Your two‑fold structure—general revelation and special revelation—is exactly how Scripture itself frames God’s self‑disclosure, but the biblical emphasis is not that GR itself saves, but that GR universally summons and condemns, while SR redeems. General revelation displays God’s eternal power and divine nature (Rom. 1:20), presses every conscience with moral accountability (Rom. 2:14–16), and echoes the Golden Rule as the intuitive moral law written on human hearts (Matt. 7:12).
It also includes the proto‑gospel foreshadowing Paul identifies: the gospel preached beforehand to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23).
Yet Scripture consistently shows that GR leaves humanity “without excuse,” not “already saved,” because its purpose is to reveal enough of God’s goodness and justice to demand a response. Special revelation, by contrast, unveils the saving work of Christ promised in the OT and fulfilled in the NT (1 Pet. 1:8–12), and it is through this revealed Word that faith comes (Rom. 10:17). The Parable of the Talents illustrates that God judges each person according to the revelation entrusted to them, whether GR, OT, or NT, and that genuine seekers respond to whatever light they have—yet all true seeking ultimately leads to Christ, the one Way to the Father (John 14:6), the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets (Acts 24:14), and the One before whom every knee will bow (Phil. 2:10–11). Thus, all truth is a road whose smaller patterns—like a fractal—reflect the larger saving reality, but salvation itself comes only when the divine pattern is recognized in the person and work of Christ.

I will reply to your two posts, numbering the items.

1. The scriptural nucleus you’re describing—God’s love as the primal, universally accessible saving truth—is indeed affirmed across the canon, but Scripture frames it not as a “proto‑gospel sufficient for salvation,” but as the universal revelation that renders all humanity accountable.
GWH - Yes, the Scriptural term is "(fore)shadow", as in Col. 2:16-17, Heb. 8:5 & 10:1.

2. From creation itself, God’s ἀΐδιος δύναμις and θειότης (Rom. 1:20) display His goodness, generosity, and benevolent care, so that every human being perceives something of the Creator’s moral character.
GWH - Yes, Rom. 1:20 is pregnant with significance, indicating both God's omnipotence/sovereignty and nature/omnilove as the basis for divine judgment of souls unfamiliar with special revelation.

3. Jesus affirms that even children, who cannot yet grasp covenantal history or doctrinal complexity, may come to Him (Matt. 19:14).
GWH - Yes, presumably children who understand right and wrong in terms of obeying good/godly parents.

4. Paul teaches that every culture manifests some awareness of moral obligation through conscience (Rom. 2:14–16).
GWH - Yes, and in Acts 17:23-31 Paul indicated that God does not condemn souls who had no opportunity to learn the Gospel for not knowing the name of Jesus.

5. Likewise, the “gospel preached beforehand to Abraham” (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23) all show that God has never left Himself without witness.
GWH - Yes, because God loves humanity from Adam to us.

6. Yet Scripture consistently presents this universal revelation—not as saving knowledge in itself—but as the fractal‑like pattern that reflects the larger saving reality fulfilled in Christ: God’s love manifested climactically in the Son’s atoning death (1 John 4:9–10) and poured into believers’ hearts by the Spirit (Rom. 5:5).
GWH - Yes, truth is One.

7. Thus, the “fractal” of divine love is the universally perceived micro‑pattern of the gospel’s macro‑truth, the moral and spiritual awareness that leaves humanity “without excuse,” but which finds its saving power only when the revealed love of God in Christ is believed.
GWH - Yes, but when revealed fractally when knowing the NT is impossible, whether BC or AD.

8. Now I am not perfect so I may be missing something but it's my understanding thus far.
GWH - And mine, which per Jesus in John 14-17 may be taught by the Holy Spirit and per Paul in 1Cor. 3 may be the mind of Christ.

9. Your two‑fold structure—general revelation and special revelation—is exactly how Scripture itself frames God’s self‑disclosure, but the biblical emphasis is not that GR itself saves, but that GR universally summons and condemns, while SR redeems.
GWH - Well, SR also does not itself save, but must be believed in a way beyond what demons believe.

10. General revelation displays God’s eternal power and divine nature (Rom. 1:20), presses every conscience with moral accountability (Rom. 2:14–16), and echoes the Golden Rule as the intuitive moral law written on human hearts (Matt. 7:12).
GWH - Yes, that the Golden Rule = the moral aspect of GR logically is also a recent (within the past month) insight.

11. It also includes the proto‑gospel foreshadowing Paul identifies: the gospel preached beforehand to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23).
GWH - Yes, possibly including angels/life on other planets?

12. Yet Scripture consistently shows that GR leaves humanity “without excuse,” not “already saved,” because its purpose is to reveal enough of God’s goodness and justice to demand a response.
GWH - Yes, God did not program robots to be already saved, but He created humans with MFW/volition or the ability to cooperate or not.

13. Special revelation, by contrast, unveils the saving work of Christ promised in the OT and fulfilled in the NT (1 Pet. 1:8–12), and it is through this revealed Word that faith comes (Rom. 10:17).
GWH - It is through the NT that the fullness of faith or full Gospel comes that was shadowed fractally via GR.

14. The Parable of the Talents illustrates that God judges each person according to the revelation entrusted to them, whether GR, OT, or NT, and that genuine seekers respond to whatever light they have—yet all true seeking ultimately leads to Christ, the one Way to the Father (John 14:6), the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets (Acts 24:14), and the One before whom every knee will bow (Phil. 2:10–11).
GWH - Yes, connecting the Parable of the Talents with GR was an insight I had before joining CC.

15. Thus, all truth is a road whose smaller patterns—like a fractal—reflect the larger saving reality, but salvation itself comes only when the divine pattern is recognized in the person and work of Christ.
GWH - Yes, although BC souls would see Christ only dimly (1Cor. 13:12).

Over..., but I gotta go mow before it gets too hot.
TTYL

 

[GWH]

I will reply to your two posts, numbering the items.

1. The scriptural nucleus you’re describing—God’s love as the primal, universally accessible saving truth—is indeed affirmed across the canon, but Scripture frames it not as a “proto‑gospel sufficient for salvation,” but as the universal revelation that renders all humanity accountable.
GWH - Yes, the Scriptural term is "(fore)shadow", as in Col. 2:16-17, Heb. 8:5 & 10:1.

2. From creation itself, God’s ἀΐδιος δύναμις and θειότης (Rom. 1:20) display His goodness, generosity, and benevolent care, so that every human being perceives something of the Creator’s moral character.
GWH - Yes, Rom. 1:20 is pregnant with significance, indicating both God's omnipotence/sovereignty and nature/omnilove as the basis for divine judgment of souls unfamiliar with special revelation.

3. Jesus affirms that even children, who cannot yet grasp covenantal history or doctrinal complexity, may come to Him (Matt. 19:14).
GWH - Yes, presumably children who understand right and wrong in terms of obeying good/godly parents.

4. Paul teaches that every culture manifests some awareness of moral obligation through conscience (Rom. 2:14–16).
GWH - Yes, and in Acts 17:23-31 Paul indicated that God does not condemn souls who had no opportunity to learn the Gospel for not knowing the name of Jesus.

5. Likewise, the “gospel preached beforehand to Abraham” (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23) all show that God has never left Himself without witness.
GWH - Yes, because God loves humanity from Adam to us.

6. Yet Scripture consistently presents this universal revelation—not as saving knowledge in itself—but as the fractal‑like pattern that reflects the larger saving reality fulfilled in Christ: God’s love manifested climactically in the Son’s atoning death (1 John 4:9–10) and poured into believers’ hearts by the Spirit (Rom. 5:5).
GWH - Yes, truth is One.

7. Thus, the “fractal” of divine love is the universally perceived micro‑pattern of the gospel’s macro‑truth, the moral and spiritual awareness that leaves humanity “without excuse,” but which finds its saving power only when the revealed love of God in Christ is believed.
GWH - Yes, but when revealed fractally when knowing the NT is impossible, whether BC or AD.

8. Now I am not perfect so I may be missing something but it's my understanding thus far.
GWH - And mine, which per Jesus in John 14-17 may be taught by the Holy Spirit and per Paul in 1Cor. 3 may be the mind of Christ.

9. Your two‑fold structure—general revelation and special revelation—is exactly how Scripture itself frames God’s self‑disclosure, but the biblical emphasis is not that GR itself saves, but that GR universally summons and condemns, while SR redeems.
GWH - Well, SR also does not itself save, but must be believed in a way beyond what demons believe.

10. General revelation displays God’s eternal power and divine nature (Rom. 1:20), presses every conscience with moral accountability (Rom. 2:14–16), and echoes the Golden Rule as the intuitive moral law written on human hearts (Matt. 7:12).
GWH - Yes, that the Golden Rule = the moral aspect of GR logically is also a recent (within the past month) insight.

11. It also includes the proto‑gospel foreshadowing Paul identifies: the gospel preached beforehand to Abraham (Gal. 3:8), the universal proclamation of God’s moral authority (Rom. 10:18), and the cosmic scope of Christ’s message (Col. 1:23).
GWH - Yes, possibly including angels/life on other planets?

12. Yet Scripture consistently shows that GR leaves humanity “without excuse,” not “already saved,” because its purpose is to reveal enough of God’s goodness and justice to demand a response.
GWH - Yes, God did not program robots to be already saved, but He created humans with MFW/volition or the ability to cooperate or not.

13. Special revelation, by contrast, unveils the saving work of Christ promised in the OT and fulfilled in the NT (1 Pet. 1:8–12), and it is through this revealed Word that faith comes (Rom. 10:17).
GWH - It is through the NT that the fullness of faith or full Gospel comes that was shadowed fractally via GR.

14. The Parable of the Talents illustrates that God judges each person according to the revelation entrusted to them, whether GR, OT, or NT, and that genuine seekers respond to whatever light they have—yet all true seeking ultimately leads to Christ, the one Way to the Father (John 14:6), the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets (Acts 24:14), and the One before whom every knee will bow (Phil. 2:10–11).
GWH - Yes, connecting the Parable of the Talents with GR was an insight I had before joining CC.

15. Thus, all truth is a road whose smaller patterns—like a fractal—reflect the larger saving reality, but salvation itself comes only when the divine pattern is recognized in the person and work of Christ.
GWH - Yes, although BC souls would see Christ only dimly (1Cor. 13:12).

Over..., but I gotta go mow before it gets too hot.
TTYL

Bumped for @OMC etal.

 

[GWH]

In 386, Augustine decided to convert to Catholic Christianity, returning from Milan to Carthage before settling in Hippo and writing prolifically until his death in 430 what became the dominant RC theology. Especially significant were his doctrines regarding original sin, predestination, infant baptism and papal supremacy. RC theology was dominant in Christendom through the Middle Ages until the Protestant Reformation. The Christological controversy continued with Nestorius opposed to calling Mary the “mother of God” because it denied Jesus’ humanity, prompting Cyril of Alexandria to convene the Council of Ephesus in 431.

After the death of Theodosius I in 395, the RE was redivided permanently, and the western part weakened as Rome was sacked by Visigoths from Dacia (Romania) in 410 (before they established a kingdom in Gaul and Spain in 419), then in 455 by Vandals from the Baltic area (who had migrated across Europe to Spain and then across the straits of Gibraltar and eastward along the African coast as far as Sicily by 429).

These migrations may have been motivated by the Huns, who migrated from Mongolia across the Volga in 372, defeating the Ostrogoths in the Ukraine and travelling as far as Gaul before attacking Italy in 452. Their religion may have been Tengriism, about which little is known until the time of the Mongols, but it revered the god of the sky or heaven. The Roman part of the empire ended in 476, when Italy was captured by Germans led by Odoacer.

The Roman part of the empire ended in 476, when Italy was captured by Germans led by Odoacer. Pope Felix III excommunicated Patriarch Acacius in 484, causing a schism in Christendom until 519. Odoacer was deposed in 493 by Ostrogoths allied with the eastern or Byzantine Empire (BE). Their king, Theodoric, married a sister of Clovis in France, and his sister married the Vandal king (implying alliances or at least truces). During his reign, Boethius translated the works of Plato, Aristotle, Euclid and Ptolemy. He discussed whether universal concepts only exist as ideas, and he expounded on topics of the quadrivium—arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music. He was arrested for treason and wrote The Consolation of Philosophy before being executed in 524.

In 529, the BE Justinian I closed the Athens School of Philosophy. His General Belisarius took North Africa in 533 and Italy in 535, then began a series of wars with the Sassanids in Persia in 539. Justinian sent missionaries to China in 552, who smuggled out silkworms. That year Japanese prehistory ended and the Asuka period began when the emperor introduced Buddhism.

In 542, a plague in Constantinople spread and halved the population of Europe before ending in 594. The barbarian migrations ended about 600 with the Czechs and Slovaks in Bohemia, the Yugoslavs in Serbia, Lombards in Italy, Visigoths in Spain, and Franks in France. In that year, books were printed in China, and smallpox arrived in Europe from India.

 

[GWH]

In 610, Mohammed had a vision on Mt. Hira, then fled from Mecca to Medina in 622 (the first year of the Muslim calendar), where he dictated the Qu’ran. In 614-619, Persia conquered Damascus, Jerusalem and Egypt. About this time in China, porcelain was produced, orchestras were formed and exams used scientific textbooks.

In 628, Mohammed began Islam’s expansion via forced conversion by capturing Mecca, where he taught five “pillars”: faith, prayer, alms, fasting and pilgrimage. He stressed the oneness of God and claimed to be God’s last and greatest prophet before he died in 632 (the year Buddhism became the state religion in Tibet).

In 634, the Muslim caliph Omar I took Syria and Egypt and defeated BE forces. He made Damascus the capital of his caliphate in 635. In 641, Omar captured Persia and suppressed Zoroasterianism, which taught that humans should exercise volition to have good thoughts, words and deeds, thereby participating with the god Ahura Mazda in a cosmic struggle against chaos and falsehood. Omar also closed the library and school in Alexandria.

In 643, the Muslims took Tripoli and built the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. They took Cyprus in 649. In 660, the Omayyad dynasty took over the Caliphate and expanded to the Indus River by 674, while RC Christendom “fiddled” with the Monothelitism controversy (622-680), which debated whether Christ Jesus had one (human) or two (also divine) wills.

The Muslims took Armenia in 694 and Algiers in 700, then Spain in 711-716. During this time the population of China was “exploding”, and Ch’ang-an (capitol of the Han, Sui and Tang dynasties near present-day Xi’an) became the largest city in the world, followed by Constantinople.

In 715, the Muslim Empire extended from the Pyrenees to China, and in 717 tax exemption was granted to all believers. However, Charles Martel of France decisively defeated them in 732, which halted the Islamic advance from the direction of Spain. At this time Boniface was working to eliminate heathenism northeast of the Rhine River, and the BE was threatened by Bulgarians.

In 750, the Abbasids won the Muslim Caliphate and defeated China in the Battle of Samarkind in 751, where the Arabs learned how to make paper. Pepin of France made Lombardy a vassal state and granted land (the Papal State) to the popes. In 763, the Caliphate capitol was moved to Baghdad, where Indian numerals became used.