A question posited concerning The Great Commission

[Philos]

At a recent apologetics conference a question was posited to me concerning the Great Commission. since the conference was not recorded the question that was asked of me I can only paraphrase as I ask the same question to this body.
In regards to the Great Commission; concerning the process of the preparation of Christ followers to be able to adequately share the good news with non- believers and then to make (train and help mature) disciples of new believers who in turn are they themselves capable of discipling others; How does the way that we currently do church accomplish this command? Specifically as I was asked. How the methodology of Sunday worship services, which usually involves singing, announcements, requests for tithes and offerings, special presentations and finally biblical lectures from church leaders who offer their personal interpretation of the chosen scriptures (also sharing their personal experiences that hopefully contribute to the understanding of those scriptures), along with special programs and individual targeted ministries and other events during the week accomplish this commandment given to each of us as Christ followers? His followup question was: What are churches current specific plans To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

I will tell you how I responded to this very intelligent young man, I will call him here mike, but more importantly I am posting this to get input from the body of Pastors and church leaders on this forum as to how to address these questions.

I responded by complimenting him on his very intelligent and heartfelt questions. I told him that I did not feel that I could not or should not attempt to respond with an appropriate response to these very deep and soul searching questions in brief time allotted in this Q and A format and that his questions were a sound basis for a thesis that someone could actually write a dissertation on. However, I asked him to please email me with the questions and that I would get input from church pastors and church leaders before I responded to his question. I did not want to give him just my opinion asI felt that he these questions deserved a consensus from a larger body of pastors and leaders who would best be capable of responding since this is their area of responsibility.

So, that is what I'm doing. I'm asking each of you who will be kind enough to respond to have a discussion with your fellow pastors and church leaders concerning these issues Mike brought up So I may respond to Mike as I promised.
Thank you for taking your time to discuss and respond to these, what I feel, are very critical questions that Mike has asked of us.

 

[Gideon300]

At a recent apologetics conference a question was posited to me concerning the Great Commission. since the conference was not recorded the question that was asked of me I can only paraphrase as I ask the same question to this body.
In regards to the Great Commission; concerning the process of the preparation of Christ followers to be able to adequately share the good news with non- believers and then to make (train and help mature) disciples of new believers who in turn are they themselves capable of discipling others; How does the way that we currently do church accomplish this command? Specifically as I was asked. How the methodology of Sunday worship services, which usually involves singing, announcements, requests for tithes and offerings, special presentations and finally biblical lectures from church leaders who offer their personal interpretation of the chosen scriptures (also sharing their personal experiences that hopefully contribute to the understanding of those scriptures), along with special programs and individual targeted ministries and other events during the week accomplish this commandment given to each of us as Christ followers? His followup question was: What are churches current specific plans To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

I will tell you how I responded to this very intelligent young man, I will call him here mike, but more importantly I am posting this to get input from the body of Pastors and church leaders on this forum as to how to address these questions.

I responded by complimenting him on his very intelligent and heartfelt questions. I told him that I did not feel that I could not or should not attempt to respond with an appropriate response to these very deep and soul searching questions in brief time allotted in this Q and A format and that his questions were a sound basis for a thesis that someone could actually write a dissertation on. However, I asked him to please email me with the questions and that I would get input from church pastors and church leaders before I responded to his question. I did not want to give him just my opinion asI felt that he these questions deserved a consensus from a larger body of pastors and leaders who would best be capable of responding since this is their area of responsibility.

So, that is what I'm doing. I'm asking each of you who will be kind enough to respond to have a discussion with your fellow pastors and church leaders concerning these issues Mike brought up So I may respond to Mike as I promised.
Thank you for taking your time to discuss and respond to these, what I feel, are very critical questions that Mike has asked of us.

I am much concerned by the trend away from solid biblical teaching. I believe that we are, at least in the Western church, in the era of ear tickling. Very large congregations are not conducive to sound teaching. I was blessed to spend many years with a small group that met in homes every day. Sometimes ministry was personal, to an individual struggling with a problem. Most of the time, it was solid teaching and fellowship.

This is the pattern of the very early church. (Acts 2:42). Some say that there are no more apostles. I disagree. They are called missionaries now. There are too many self appointed "apostles", that is true, but all of the saints are not yet at a place of maturity and will not be until Jesus returns. (Ephesians 4:11 & 12). What teachers and pastors seem to overlook is that their role is to equip the saints for ministry. Too often, leaders are intent on increasing numbers, not building up the saints.

Another obstacle is the "clergy/laity" divide promoted by many denominations. This is unbiblical. Having a few letters after your name does not make you a pastor and teacher. And a teacher must be a pastor and a pastor must be a teacher. Elders should be teachers also. There is way too much emphasis on one individual in most assemblies.

I could go on. The New Testament has much to say about the conduct of meetings. Sadly, this is mostly ignored today.

 

[studentoftheword]

In regards to the Great Commission; concerning the process of the preparation of Christ followers to be able to adequately share the good news with non- believers and then to make (train and help mature) disciples of new believers who in turn are they themselves capable of discipling others; How does the way that we currently do church accomplish this command?

For starters --the way the Church is today you can't accomplish this -------
The person trying to prep these down the road disciples ----better be a Mature --Holy Spirit indwelled person who relies on the Holy Spirit only ----for all their Spiritual knowledge and daily direction --and has great knowledge of the Scripture and Agapes God with all their heart --soul --mind and strength --and believe me there are not many of those around -----the Pastors ---Ministers --Priests today are mostly Just ---Want to be Christians ----and have no real Spiritual knowledge ----and take scripture and water it down and sugarcoat it so they don't loose people ---and Preach only the Lovey --dovey stuff and leave out the Hard preaching cause they don't understand it ---do to their ignorance of Spiritual knowledge ---and then twist the scripture to suit their own agenda ---and preach False Doctrine ------to make false Disciples ----Very Few Holy Spirit indwelled Minister preaching today

His followup question was: What are churches current specific plans To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

First you have to find the Church whose Minister is a True Christian ----Here is the thing ---the Minister's job is to preach all scripture ----the bad and good ----to give the people a good foundation to build on --without first the right and strong foundation ---which is Christ's faith ---you will crumble --and Satan will destroy your Faith
-----Read the Parable of the Sower ----

Most Minister's themselves have no idea what Christ's faith is -----they just talk about having Faith but they never go into detail about how to get it and how it has to be Grounded and rooted to endure the storms that come -----there is so much to learn and digest in making good Disciples ----and unfortunately today ---Satan is in many churches ----and Good Disciples have to lean about their enemy and how to defeat him ----to stay connected to God ----Cause Satan will fight hard to keep Disciples from preaching the Word to others ---

To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

The Believer is responsible to Mature themselves ------they have to want to Mature in their walk with Christ ----Many Carnal Christians will die in their carnal state -----Maturing in your Spiritual walk with Christ takes courage and stamina and much practice on our part ----the person has to be hungry and thirsty to want to Mature in their faith walk with Christ -----you need to be in the Word very often and better yet Daily -----going to church on Sunday won"t help you Mature ---just like it won't help you to ground and root your Faith in Christ ----

The congregation is only getting what Spiritual knowledge is fed to them ----and today there is not much Spiritual Knowledge or Truth being passed on to the people in the pews today -----

Many are Wrongly dividing the Word of God -----

 

[Snackersmom]

.......Another obstacle is the "clergy/laity" divide promoted by many denominations. This is unbiblical.....There is way too much emphasis on one individual in most assemblies......The New Testament has much to say about the conduct of meetings. Sadly, this is mostly ignored today.

I agree, especially with the parts I singled out above. Christianity is not a spectator sport, but many modern churches treat it as such.

As far as the solution goes, emphasis on the gifts and Spirit-enabled abilities of the entire congregation goes a long way. Some people don't witness because they aren't gifted like Billy Graham or Ray Comfort, but God can still use them in mighty ways. Others might be spiritually gifted to teach, but without a fancy degree the church might deem them unqualified.

We think of a "pastor" as the head guy in church who explains the Bible to everyone else, but really even a small congregation ought to have multiple members with gifts for shepherding and teaching.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree, especially with the parts I singled out above. Christianity is not a spectator sport, but many modern churches treat it as such.

As far as the solution goes, emphasis on the gifts and Spirit-enabled abilities of the entire congregation goes a long way. Some people don't witness because they aren't gifted like Billy Graham or Ray Comfort, but God can still use them in mighty ways. Others might be spiritually gifted to teach, but without a fancy degree the church might deem them unqualified.

We think of a "pastor" as the head guy in church who explains the Bible to everyone else, but really even a small congregation ought to have multiple members with gifts for shepherding and teaching.

No one hands out prizes to spectators.

 

[Aaron56]

Paul to Timothy:

"..you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance..."

Timothy is not making up his own doctrine, he is following Paul.

Paul would also write to the saints in Corinth:

"Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."

This is an elder setting an example for the young. This pattern is matched in every epistle.

And why shouldn't it be: Jesus told His disciples "In the way that the Father sent me, I am sending you".

Within a multi-generational house (family) wherein the elders are examples for the young, there is a clear line of culture whose origin is the father. This is true for the House of God and it is the way that God builds the house.

Scripture testifies that the relationship between the elders and young are essential within the Kingdom of God.

If you can receive it: God is not interested in converting more "non-believers". He is building His house. And unless He builds it, according to the way we can clearly read in scripture, the builders labor in vain.

I highlighted that last part to expand upon it: "in vain" is not like hopelessness. It literally means, in this context, they can build something spectacular but it will not be accepted by the Lord.

 

[BrianParsons]

At a recent apologetics conference a question was posited to me concerning the Great Commission. since the conference was not recorded the question that was asked of me I can only paraphrase as I ask the same question to this body.
In regards to the Great Commission; concerning the process of the preparation of Christ followers to be able to adequately share the good news with non- believers and then to make (train and help mature) disciples of new believers who in turn are they themselves capable of discipling others; How does the way that we currently do church accomplish this command? Specifically as I was asked. How the methodology of Sunday worship services, which usually involves singing, announcements, requests for tithes and offerings, special presentations and finally biblical lectures from church leaders who offer their personal interpretation of the chosen scriptures (also sharing their personal experiences that hopefully contribute to the understanding of those scriptures), along with special programs and individual targeted ministries and other events during the week accomplish this commandment given to each of us as Christ followers? His followup question was: What are churches current specific plans To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

I will tell you how I responded to this very intelligent young man, I will call him here mike, but more importantly I am posting this to get input from the body of Pastors and church leaders on this forum as to how to address these questions.

I responded by complimenting him on his very intelligent and heartfelt questions. I told him that I did not feel that I could not or should not attempt to respond with an appropriate response to these very deep and soul searching questions in brief time allotted in this Q and A format and that his questions were a sound basis for a thesis that someone could actually write a dissertation on. However, I asked him to please email me with the questions and that I would get input from church pastors and church leaders before I responded to his question. I did not want to give him just my opinion asI felt that he these questions deserved a consensus from a larger body of pastors and leaders who would best be capable of responding since this is their area of responsibility.

So, that is what I'm doing. I'm asking each of you who will be kind enough to respond to have a discussion with your fellow pastors and church leaders concerning these issues Mike brought up So I may respond to Mike as I promised.
Thank you for taking your time to discuss and respond to these, what I feel, are very critical questions that Mike has asked of us.

I too have struggled, since God called me to proclaim His Word, with this question. "How is the way we currently do church accomplishing this command?" Twenty years later I now believe the question is the wrong question to be asking. It is not how we do church that determines how the command is accomplished. The issue is not how we come together to worship that makes strong followers of God and/or good disciples. The question we need to be asking is how are we, personally, serving God to fulfill this command?
It is not an us or they issue. It is for you alone to answer. It is for me alone to answer. The great commission was not given as a group project. It was given to each and every disciple of Jesus Christ to heed. Therefore, we need not fix the church. We only need to begin doing as Jesus commanded us to do. When God's children begin to do as He commanded us to do, then the church will right itself and the disciples of God will begin to gain the strength we need to begin winning this spiritual battle for the souls of man once more.

 

[Philos]

Thank you for your input Brian.
The feeling that I got as to the gist of Mike's question was: As scripture, pastors and church leaders tell us what we need to do or what we are supposed to do, the body in general is asking okay but how do we do it? Who is supposed to train us and provide resources so that we are equipped and qualified to go out into the secular world and present/explain the "Good News" and respond adequately, using scripture, their questions or fiery dart accusations?
Who is responsible for developing all Christ followers, new believers as well as mature saints, to go into the marketplace of ideas and be able to do as Paul did at the Areopagus in presenting the plan of salvation?

Just a side comment to say I am very dissapointed in the lack of response asking for help and guidence in responding to Mike. Either many pastors and church leaders have never had to address this issue Mike brought up or maybe most just don't think this is an issue in the evangelical church in America. If the latter is true then maybe that denial is the cause.

 

[BrianParsons]

"Who is supposed to train us and provide resources so that we are equipped and qualified to go out into the secular world and present/explain the Good News..."
This question is not easily answered, for there is no "cookie cutter" ideal for who can or should fill this role. And yet, the answer is also easily known, for it is he/she whom God appoints to equip and provide as God sees fit. The issue then arises, How do we know if so and so is God sent or self appointed?
Herein lies the problem, for there are many false teachers seeking to glorify themselves and their own ideals. And many are hard to discern. Especially for those young in their faith.
I would love to point out a church that has figured out how to overcome all issues, but even the best churches are known to weaknesses of the flesh and must continually self assess and refocus on the Lord in order to overcome.
The moment we say this is the right approach or no it is this one over here, we box in the movement of the Holy Spirit to lead as He sees fit.
You see, it is not the pastor ot other spiritual leader that is supposed to tell others what they are supposed to do. We are only God's men called to point people over and over to heed God and follow Him. What God says to do, do. Only test the spirit in which you heed and make sure it is of God. This is where we as pastors come in to provide guidance and perspective. But the primary and final say is found in God's Holy Word.
Read 1 John. See how the apostle addresses the Christians under his leadership. Hear what he says in chapter 2 concerning the anointing of the Holy Spirit and how they do not need anyone to teach them. God is our teacher. We only need guides to seek Him better and know Him better. But is it folly to trust in any other than God Himself.
Some trust in horsemen, and some in chariots, but I will trust in the name of the Lord!

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Hello,

"Who is supposed to train us and provide resources so that we are equipped and qualified to go out into the secular world and present/explain the Good News..."
This question is not easily answered, for there is no "cookie cutter" ideal for who can or should fill this role. And yet, the answer is also easily known, for it is he/she whom God appoints to equip and provide as God sees fit. The issue then arises, How do we know if so and so is God sent or self appointed?
Herein lies the problem, for there are many false teachers seeking to glorify themselves and their own ideals. And many are hard to discern. Especially for those young in their faith.
I would love to point out a church that has figured out how to overcome all issues, but even the best churches are known to weaknesses of the flesh and must continually self assess and refocus on the Lord in order to overcome.
The moment we say this is the right approach or no it is this one over here, we box in the movement of the Holy Spirit to lead as He sees fit.
You see, it is not the pastor ot other spiritual leader that is supposed to tell others what they are supposed to do. We are only God's men called to point people over and over to heed God and follow Him. What God says to do, do. Only test the spirit in which you heed and make sure it is of God. This is where we as pastors come in to provide guidance and perspective. But the primary and final say is found in God's Holy Word.
Read 1 John. See how the apostle addresses the Christians under his leadership. Hear what he says in chapter 2 concerning the anointing of the Holy Spirit and how they do not need anyone to teach them. God is our teacher. We only need guides to seek Him better and know Him better. But is it folly to trust in any other than God Himself.
Some trust in horsemen, and some in chariots, but I will trust in the name of the Lord!

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16

In John's gospel to the lost, the word "believe " is used exactly 100 times, that's 💯 times as the proper response to Jesus Christ' sin atoning death burial and resurrection.
I Corinthians 15:1-4, etc.

31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John to the Lost, chapter 20.

If someone has a different gospel, as far as salvation goes, they should not be preaching. As far as this commission goes, every saved man, woman and child is doing God's will by sharing this good news with others.

 

[BrianParsons]

Hello,


"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16

In John's gospel to the lost, the word "believe " is used exactly 100 times, that's 💯 times as the proper response to Jesus Christ' sin atoning death burial and resurrection.
I Corinthians 15:1-4, etc.

31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John to the Lost, chapter 20.

If someone has a different gospel, as far as salvation goes, they should not be preaching. As far as this commission goes, every saved man, woman and child is doing God's will by sharing this good news with others.

I agree with you fully on this. I am not sure if you were stating this in affirmation to my earlier comment or if you had another purpose. Yes, the children of God are all called to go and tell. Yet this is not what was being posited. The original question was oriented toward how the churches of today are set up. My answer was oriented toward answering this question and was not intended as a broad statement concerning Christian responsibility as a whole. Though I believe I did allude to the individual responsibility of each Christian to serve as God had called them to serve, and how in so doing God will fulfill the rest of the issues found in churches today.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I agree with you fully on this. I am not sure if you were stating this in affirmation to my earlier comment or if you had another purpose. Yes, the children of God are all called to go and tell. Yet this is not what was being posited. The original question was oriented toward how the churches of today are set up. My answer was oriented toward answering this question and was not intended as a broad statement concerning Christian responsibility as a whole. Though I believe I did allude to the individual responsibility of each Christian to serve as God had called them to serve, and how in so doing God will fulfill the rest of the issues found in churches today.

I'm just passionate about good Bible believing churches getting involved with spreading the gospel and carrying out the great commission. The vast majority do not. They might be busy with activities, but even the gospel from the pulpit of my previous mega church was not getting much of the congregation saved. This was the biggest church in West Virginia. The satellite church south of the original had a pastor fill in for my pastor Tim H.
The other guy did not even preach the right gospel! So there's a list pastor filling in preaching a false gospel in a baptistic, Stanley based independent mega church.

When I proposed to teach and lead or get involved with their choice of soul winning minister, I was shut down for suggesting it by a former pastor.
This happened as if it was no longer relevant, or maybe offensive to the community! The church had a rock band, laser show and smoke that caused people's asmah to flare up with coughing.

The speed dating method to get members connected and in small groups blasted such loud music that my ears still ring 24/7 years later as a result of the injury the pastor at the time caused! He refused to reconcile the problem when approached but I forgave him in spite of constant sound of mosquitos and gnats in both ears.

Yet no soul winning program was allowed. The guy who led what was his collection of sale items in his thrift store asked me to lead volunteers to the nursing home while he gathered items from an elderly couple's home. He did not want to hear how many people we led to Christ. These were just a few of my experiences over many years of supporting and living the church, it's staff and connecting with just about everyone I talked to.

This is just one example of the problem with others good churches.
People are going to hell every day in my state and yours.
When are preachers going to start giving a damn?

 

[studentoftheword]

This is just one example of the problem with others good churches.
People are going to hell every day in my state and yours.
When are preachers going to start giving a damn?[/QUOTE]

Amen To That -----Satan has most Ministers under his wing ---in my view

 

[Soyeong]

At a recent apologetics conference a question was posited to me concerning the Great Commission. since the conference was not recorded the question that was asked of me I can only paraphrase as I ask the same question to this body.
In regards to the Great Commission; concerning the process of the preparation of Christ followers to be able to adequately share the good news with non- believers and then to make (train and help mature) disciples of new believers who in turn are they themselves capable of discipling others; How does the way that we currently do church accomplish this command? Specifically as I was asked. How the methodology of Sunday worship services, which usually involves singing, announcements, requests for tithes and offerings, special presentations and finally biblical lectures from church leaders who offer their personal interpretation of the chosen scriptures (also sharing their personal experiences that hopefully contribute to the understanding of those scriptures), along with special programs and individual targeted ministries and other events during the week accomplish this commandment given to each of us as Christ followers? His followup question was: What are churches current specific plans To mature new believers as well as current existing believers and how well is the church impacting our secular world?

I will tell you how I responded to this very intelligent young man, I will call him here mike, but more importantly I am posting this to get input from the body of Pastors and church leaders on this forum as to how to address these questions.

I responded by complimenting him on his very intelligent and heartfelt questions. I told him that I did not feel that I could not or should not attempt to respond with an appropriate response to these very deep and soul searching questions in brief time allotted in this Q and A format and that his questions were a sound basis for a thesis that someone could actually write a dissertation on. However, I asked him to please email me with the questions and that I would get input from church pastors and church leaders before I responded to his question. I did not want to give him just my opinion asI felt that he these questions deserved a consensus from a larger body of pastors and leaders who would best be capable of responding since this is their area of responsibility.

So, that is what I'm doing. I'm asking each of you who will be kind enough to respond to have a discussion with your fellow pastors and church leaders concerning these issues Mike brought up So I may respond to Mike as I promised.
Thank you for taking your time to discuss and respond to these, what I feel, are very critical questions that Mike has asked of us.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message that he commissioned his disciples to bring to the nations. The whole point of a rabbi/disciple relationship is for the disciples to learn from their rabbi how to obey the Torah.