A symphony is as loud as a machine gun

[ServantStrike]

Just thought I might share this as it came up in another thread, and it's interesting to point out to those who want to say that rock is too primal and inflames passions.

Played the way the original original composer intended a full orchestra is loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. That data is from a study in the EU. IT shows a peak of 131 dBA.

Another article here shows a different symphony with peak of 143.5 dedcibels, and a mean of about 90 decibels.

For comparision, here are some noises in that ball park:

gas lawn mower at 3 feet - 100 dB
threshold for pain - 125 dB
Military jet with afterburners engaged at 50 feet - 130 dB
An air raid siren - 135 dB
thresh hold for instantaneous (and permanent) hearing damage with hearing protection on - 140 dB
these last couple sound pretty intense
140dB human throat and vocal cord resonance occurs
141dB Nausea felt after a few minutes
144dB Nose itches due to hair vibrations
145dB Vision blurs due to eyeball vibration
147dB Formula 1 race car full throttle drive bye


And, yes, with the proper equipment, you can play anything at higher volumes than those numbers. Recordings aren't mastered at that level though (with the exception of anything performed by an orchestra, which is usually recorded with a microphone suspended over said orchestra).


So, an orchestra is quite literally enough to make the ground beneath it quake. That's going to inflame some passions too.

 

[Tintin]

Yes, also not all music has to be reverent and prayerful. There's time for louder music too.

 

[ServantStrike]

Yes, also not all music has to be reverent and prayerful. There's time for louder music too.

Some of it can be both though!

 

[Tintin]

Absolutely! But as the psalmist said, there's a season for everything.

 

[RedTent]

You have made my point!! Classical loud music does inspire passions, but the loud rock music inspires physical reactions, not passionate reactions.

All composers have led us in feelings. Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Beethoven, Wagner, even Elvis. Loudness or softness isn't the point of the music. Rock appeals with the physical beat and loudness is part of the sound.

 

[ServantStrike]

You have made my point!! Classical loud music does inspire passions, but the loud rock music inspires physical reactions, not passionate reactions.

All composers have led us in feelings. Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Beethoven, Wagner, even Elvis. Loudness or softness isn't the point of the music. Rock appeals with the physical beat and loudness is part of the sound.

All music inspires passion when you think about it. If it didn't, it's not very good. Whether that is a passion for God or a passion for any thing else.


Music actually stimulates the same area of the brain that sexual gratification does. It's very powerful.


What do you mean by a physical reaction versus a passionate reaction though?

 

[RedTent]

What do you mean by a physical reaction versus a passionate reaction though?

It could be that at 88, I have a different reaction to different music than you do. But I cannot imagine reacting to the drums and beat of rock in the same way as the reaction to even rag time. To me the drums of rock blots out anything but the physical, altho my reaction is more like someone is overwhelming me with sound that has no harmony, it repels me. I can even enjoy it when Wagner shouts at me but rock only beats.

 

[didymos]

(...)
So, an orchestra is quite literally enough to make the ground beneath it quake. That's going to inflame some passions too.

That may be true for the (late) romantic period (with composers like Brahms and Bruckner), but not so much for the classical period (with composers like Haydn and Mozart).

 

[ServantStrike]

It could be that at 88, I have a different reaction to different music than you do. But I cannot imagine reacting to the drums and beat of rock in the same way as the reaction to even rag time. To me the drums of rock blots out anything but the physical, altho my reaction is more like someone is overwhelming me with sound that has no harmony, it repels me. I can even enjoy it when Wagner shouts at me but rock only beats.

I still don't understand how how my point isn't still valid unless you literally pick and choose instruments.

The pipe organ is the elephant in the room. Some of them can hit incredibly high volumes, and were available during the baroque period. They also reach such low frequencies that they can rattle your rib cage.

That may be true for the (late) romantic period (with composers like Brahms and Bruckner), but not so much for the classical period (with composers like Haydn and Mozart).

Unless you pretend you're the phantom of the opera post 20th century and you have some Bach and a large pipe organ.

One of my fav pieces of classical music, and it's baroque. And yes it was never intended for the play.
[video=youtube;ho9rZjlsyYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9rZjlsyYY[/video]




There is a pipe organ about 2 hours from where I live that will hit 135 db if anyone is insane enough to flog it that hard. It's a bit on the exotic side though. Most of them were not that big.

 

[posthuman]

i used to build pipe organs for a living. there are plenty of stops that will top 135db in the organ chambers - the Naval Academy Chapel in Annapolis has a tuba rank that maxes over 140 inside the chamber - i've held the decibel meter myself. we have to wear ear protection to tune it, and even then, it makes your stomach hurt, and you have to tune it last thing of the day, because your ears will be ringing so badly you can't hear to tune anything else. a high-dollar set of earmuffs permanently hangs outside the chamber door.

 

[posthuman]

The pipe organ is the elephant in the room. Some of them can hit incredibly high volumes, and were available during the baroque period. They also reach such low frequencies that they can rattle your rib cage.

i've been around a lot of these monster 16' / 32' bass pipes tuning them - you don't really "hear" the notes as much as you "feel" them -- and being in the chambers with them is a lot different than being out in the middle of the sanctuary or hall. it can make some people queasy enough to puke!

 

[CatHerder]

I just did four Nutcracker performances this weekend. Some of the sounds we make in the orchestra are extremely loud.

The loudness of my french horn has made people jump in their chairs at church...other times I am barely audible. That's just normal music making.

 

[rachelsedge]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "physical reaction", RedTent. Physical reactions I have to music are to want to get up and dance, tap my foot, play drums on my car wheel/dashboard, or run, and not all of that is strictly when I listen to rock. Many genres can do that. I don't think listening to music has ever made me want to be violent, and if it does that to someone, then there are clearly underlying issues not directly related to the music.

Music is very powerful in that it can influence how we feel. But if it controls us, then again, there are deeper issues present.

 

[CatHerder]

Tolerance For Loud Noises Decreases With Age

An interesting study on the elderly having a lower tolerance for loud noises. I think they should have played a Mahler symphony as well as Led Zeppelin.

 

[Hellooo]

I just did four Nutcracker performances this weekend. Some of the sounds we make in the orchestra are extremely loud.

The loudness of my french horn has made people jump in their chairs at church...other times I am barely audible. That's just normal music making.

Catherder, it must have been lovely! I love the Nutcracker with a passion that almost borders on obsession.

 

[didymos]

(...)
Unless you pretend you're the phantom of the opera post 20th century and you have some Bach and a large pipe organ.

(...)

True, but the story of 'The Phantom' is still set in time of Napoleon III (r. 1852-1870) so exactly in the Late Romantic Era (1850-1900) when composers like Brahms and Bruckner produced their greatest (and 'noisiest') symphonies. After that orchestras only became bigger and 'noisier.' Btw, I thought we were discussing symphonic music here, not organ music.

Here's a personal favorite of mine. the Allegro from Shostakovich' 10th Symphony;
I've never seen it played faster than this...

[video=youtube;2ZbJOE9zNjw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZbJOE9zNjw[/video]

 

[didymos]

So what I meant to say was: not ALL symphonic music is 'loud,' it partly depends on WHEN it was composed.

 

[ServantStrike]

Tolerance For Loud Noises Decreases With Age

An interesting study on the elderly having a lower tolerance for loud noises. I think they should have played a Mahler symphony as well as Led Zeppelin.

I'd love to see that study done again in another 30 years with people who grew up listening to rock music. I think the results could be different.

I just did four Nutcracker performances this weekend. Some of the sounds we make in the orchestra are extremely loud.

The loudness of my french horn has made people jump in their chairs at church...other times I am barely audible. That's just normal music making.

The nutcracker is great.

Although I admit, the frustrating thing about it for me is there isn't a single nut cracked. Nobody gets kicked in the crotch, and not even a single walnut is consumed.

True, but the story of 'The Phantom' is still set in time of Napoleon III (r. 1852-1870) so exactly in the Late Romantic Era (1850-1900) when composers like Brahms and Bruckner produced their greatest (and 'noisiest') symphonies. After that orchestras only became bigger and 'noisier.' Btw, I thought we were discussing symphonic music here, not organ music.

Here's a personal favorite of mine. the Allegro from Shostakovich' 10th Symphony;
I've never seen it played faster than this...

[video=youtube;2ZbJOE9zNjw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZbJOE9zNjw[/video]

That is fast.

It's like... thrash classical lol.

 

[michelle32]

This is very healthy discussion and i found it very useful.