"a thousand" literal or symbolic?

[eternally-gratefull]

Of coarse!! My point is that even tho Daniels prayer was answered doesnt mean the answer didnt
surpass that. Why would it have to stay within the limits of his prayer.

why? because Gabriel said so. 70 years have been determined for YOUR PEOPLE, and YOUR HOLY CITY. thus the answer to the prayer and interpretation of the prophesy should be based on thise guidlines and these alone. I am not of daniels people, nor do I have claim to his city. thus the answer would not concern me in any way shape or form.

If your gona limit Daniels answer to his prayer then youd have to cut out most of the book.
Especially the gap theory. You set yourself up on that one.

i set myself up? Come on now. is that how we should speak?

messiah come at the end of 69 week, fulfilled to the day on good friday.
messiah cut off after 69 week. Fulfilled exactly 7 literal days later.
People of prince who is to come will destroy city and sanctuary. fulfilled some 36 years later. thus we already have a gap between the end of the 69th week, and the fulfillment of the 70th week, The gap is imposed in the prophesy, it is just no one knew until the things took place. Concidering some of them have not taken place yet. We already have a problem.

why do you think Isreal rejected Christ? they knew dan, they rejected because they believed he would come and set up his kingdom. They did not realise he would have to take care of sin first. then let the gentile time be completed, then return and set up his kingdom, if they understood this. they would have believed.

 

[Abiding]

ill get to this when i get home from work or start another thread...
that would be fun EG...i could work on my typing

 

[Bookends]

why? because Gabriel said so. 70 years have been determined for YOUR PEOPLE, and YOUR HOLY CITY. thus the answer to the prayer and interpretation of the prophesy should be based on thise guidlines and these alone. I am not of daniels people, nor do I have claim to his city. thus the answer would not concern me in any way shape or form.



i set myself up? Come on now. is that how we should speak?

messiah come at the end of 69 week, fulfilled to the day on good friday.
messiah cut off after 69 week. Fulfilled exactly 7 literal days later.
People of prince who is to come will destroy city and sanctuary. fulfilled some 36 years later. thus we already have a gap between the end of the 69th week, and the fulfillment of the 70th week, The gap is imposed in the prophesy, it is just no one knew until the things took place. Concidering some of them have not taken place yet. We already have a problem.

why do you think Isreal rejected Christ? they knew dan, they rejected because they believed he would come and set up his kingdom. They did not realise he would have to take care of sin first. then let the gentile time be completed, then return and set up his kingdom, if they understood this. they would have believed.

No, I disagree, Christ came to set His spiritual kingdom. Christ told Pilate in John 10:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” Christ's kingdom was preached by JtB and Christ, in that it was near (soon) and inaugurated at Christ ascension. In Luke, Christ says the kingdom is within us: Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."



Paul talks as if the Nation of Israel is of flesh in 1 Corinthians 10:18 "18 Observe Israel after the flesh:" in regarding that we should flee from Idolatry. Why doesn't he just say Israel, because their are two Israels, one of the flesh, the bond woman represented as Hagar, and the free woman, true Israel = spiritual Israel, represented as Sarah, the SEED, the mother of Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem and mother of us all. As we talked before and agreed on, we are all saved the same way, and that's by a contrite heart of true repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. The ones before the cross(Christ) looked to the future in types and symbols which represents Christ, and today we look back at the fulfillment of the Cross in Jesus Christ. Spiritual Israel always existed from Adam and beyond Christ! The nation of Israel was just an anti-type of the true Israel Christ. What National Israel couldn't do, obey God in the 40 years of wandering, Christ fully obey and accomplished in his 40 days of fasting! God Chose 12 tribes, Jesus chose 12 disciples. Everything that National Israel was and did pointed to Christ including the very name Israel itself.


The answer to Daniels prayer was that the system of worship and the hearts of the people were revived as the prophecy 70 years of Jeremiah came near its end. Daniel knew this prophecy as was praying for it fulfillment as intercessory prayer. And I believe The prophecy of the 70 years of Israel's captivityin Babylon was a model that God uses in the prophecy of Daniels 70 weeks. At the end of 70 years of Babylon captivity, the remnant, true Israel, was led back to the land in a physical and spiritual state of revival. In the same way, the end of Daniels 70 weeks ends up with Christ putting an end to physical sacrifice for His is the final sacrificial Lamb in which liberates us positional from our sins upon our true acceptance of Him. Thus, the ultimate fulfillment of both prophecies point to the same thing, Christ our redeemer. Also, as the rebuilding of the 2nd temple was started at the end of the 70 years, so was Christ's Temple, made without human hands, was made and is still being built at the end of the 70 weeks (Christ's death, resurrection and ascension to His heavenly throne in which He now rules the earth with the undefeated Church (His Temple).



We can around and around with this I know. So I just posted this for others because I don't expect you to agree with me. lol

 

[AwaketoParadise]

In Luke, Christ says the kingdom is within us: Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

This is probably better translated "in the midst of you" being that Christ was in the midst of them. Why would Jesus tell a bunch of unbelieving pharisees that they have the kingdom of God within them?

 

[Bookends]

This is probably better translated "in the midst of you" being that Christ was in the midst of them. Why would Jesus tell a bunch of unbelieving pharisees that they have the kingdom of God within them?

entos = [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]within, inside

1. within you i.e. in the midst of you
2. within you i.e. your soul

[/FONT]
Here's a better rendering with some context:
20Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display,
21 Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you]. AMP


This context supports the view that the kingdom is a spiritual one, and since Christ was there, the kingdom and king was among them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I disagree, Christ came to set His spiritual kingdom. Christ told Pilate in John 10:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” Christ's kingdom was preached by JtB and Christ, in that it was near (soon) and inaugurated at Christ ascension. In Luke, Christ says the kingdom is within us: Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

1. God never promised Isreal a spiritual kingdom. He promised king david, a man he loved and called a man after his own heart that one from him would sit on HIS throne. Jesus is Not sitting on davids throne today, he is sitting on his own throne.

2. God in the OT promised a spiritual and literal kingdom. he spoke of when the servant would come and remove sin, when the gentiles would be brought into the kingdom, and also recieve the same blessings because of this sacrifice. But he also spoke of a literal kingdom. The jew in the day of Christ could not see the spiritual kingdom, which is why they were blinded. many in the church do not see the physical kingdom, thus they are blinded. That is why paul warned us not to be so proud. because just as God blinded Isreal and cut them off for unbelief, he can do the same for us. It is a dangerous thing to say God will not keep his promises.

As I have said before. If God will not keep his eternal promise to abraham, isaac and jacob and all who are physically descended from them. what is to stop him from taking our eternal salvation away?

Paul talks as if the Nation of Israel is of flesh in 1 Corinthians 10:18

"18 Observe Israel after the flesh:" in regarding that we should flee from Idolatry. Why doesn't he just say Israel, because their are two Israels, one of the flesh, the bond woman represented as Hagar, and the free woman, true Israel = spiritual Israel, represented as Sarah, the SEED, the mother of Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem and mother of us all. As we talked before and agreed on, we are all saved the same way, and that's by a contrite heart of true repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. The ones before the cross(Christ) looked to the future in types and symbols which represents Christ, and today we look back at the fulfillment of the Cross in Jesus Christ. Spiritual Israel always existed from Adam and beyond Christ! The nation of Israel was just an anti-type of the true Israel Christ. What National Israel couldn't do, obey God in the 40 years of wandering, Christ fully obey and accomplished in his 40 days of fasting! God Chose 12 tribes, Jesus chose 12 disciples. Everything that National Israel was and did pointed to Christ including the very name Israel itself.

Why do we ignore romans 11? everyone always want to go to passages where paul was warning the jewish people that God did not give them an automatic in because they were jews. or verses like this one, Where paul warns us not to make the same mistake the jews made, Who chose idolotry and played the harlot, instead of recieveing her messiah. That has nothign to do with Gods promises to physical isreal. why would we make it so?

The answer to Daniels prayer was that the system of worship and the hearts of the people were revived as the prophecy 70 years of Jeremiah came near its end. Daniel knew this prophecy as was praying for it fulfillment as intercessory prayer. And I believe The prophecy of the 70 years of Israel's captivityin Babylon was a model that God uses in the prophecy of Daniels 70 weeks.

1. The 70 years was in regards to lev 26, Where God said if they did not heed his voice God would remove them from their land, and destroy their cities, Jeremiah said God would have the land rest for 70 years. which was fulfilled. It was at the end, Daniel knew it, he also knew Isreal had not repented. and were still in sin. Daniels prayer was for God to remember the promises made to the fathers IN SPITE of the sins of the people, which were STILL ACTIVE.

2. You can't use it as a model, because they were for differnt things.

Jeremiahs 70 years was to rest the land.
daniels 70 years was to allow the people in the land in spite of her sin. thus they are not related.

At the end of 70 years of Babylon captivity, the remnant, true Israel, was led back to the land in a physical and spiritual state of revival.

negative, there may have been a partial revival by some, but there was never a national revival. if their truly was, god owuld have GIVEN them their land back. the whole time they were in isreal they were under gentile rule. why? because they were still in sin. Isreal as a nation was still in sin, yes their was a remnant. but it was not complete. all the prophesies in the OT concerning the return if isreal from gentile captivity say there is a COMPLETE revival, where ALL isreal repents and is saved.

In the same way, the end of Daniels 70 weeks ends up with Christ putting an end to physical sacrifice for His is the final sacrificial Lamb in which liberates us positional from our sins upon our true acceptance of Him.

it never has been about sacrifice, sacrifice never took away sin, and it is not what daniel was praying for, he was praying for God to be merciful on his people in spite of their sin, and for god to remember his promise. His answer was that 70 weeks are determined for his people, to make and end of sin (repentance and coming back to God, stopping their idolatry and playing the harlot, and receiving their messiah) to make an end of prophesy (concerning the nation of Israel) etc etc.

Isreal was allowe back in spite of her sin, for 69 weeks they continued in sin but was allowed to stay, God promised after 69 weeks messiah would come, but then get cut off but not for himself, Then the city would be destroyed, the city would remain in ruin under gentile control through many wars and tribulations. Until finally a man comes and promises peace, but breaks that covenant by committing the abomination, where Jesus said there would be great tribulation such as never be seen until his return. It is this "time of jacobs trouble" which causes the nation of Isreal to call after God, causes them to repent, and causes them to put an end of their sin, it is THEN and only then that the 70 weeks is fulfilled.

Thus, the ultimate fulfillment of both prophecies point to the same thing, Christ our redeemer. Also, as the rebuilding of the 2nd temple was started at the end of the 70 years, so was Christ's Temple, made without human hands, was made and is still being built at the end of the 70 weeks (Christ's death, resurrection and ascension to His heavenly throne in which He now rules the earth with the undefeated Church (His Temple).

disagree. Christ was the fulfillment of the promise to the whole world. not to the city or people of Isreal. Yes, they too were promised a redeemer, as we all were, but they were also promised something else.

We can around and around with this I know. So I just posted this for others because I don't expect you to agree with me. lol

I am just stating my belief, and why i disagree with you. it does not have to get heated. and we can always agree to disagree, this just happens to be my favorite subject. Always has been always will be. (well except for the gospel which we both agree on )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

entos = [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]within, inside

1. within you i.e. in the midst of you
2. within you i.e. your soul

[/FONT]
Here's a better rendering with some context:
20Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display,
21 Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you]. AMP


This context supports the view that the kingdom is a spiritual one, and since Christ was there, the kingdom and king was among them.

the spiritual always had to precede the physical. The pharisees did not get that because they did not see the OT prophesies concerning this, and only saw the physical.

We should not deny the physical will happen, just because we want to, for we risk making the same mistake they did.

The physical kingdom would have been useless if Christ did not come as suffering servant, because his kingdom would have been full of people who were still lost in sin, Sin had to be taken care of first. then the physical can happen. But God inserted a mystery because Isreal rejected him, Jesus could have made them all believe, and returned AFTER his death to set up his physical. But that would remove mans free will. God is not like that. So he blinded them until the time of the gentile is complete, as prophesied in the OT. at the end, he will return. This is what the disciples were looking for in matt 24. And why Jesus gave them those signs, of when he would return, to do what? set up his PHYSICAL kingdom.

The OT prophesies that during this kingdom all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to worship the king. For this to be fulfilled, Jesus must be sitting in Jerusalem. otherwise, this prophesy will be left unfulfilled. Does God leave prophesies unfulfilled?

 

[Bookends]

1. God never promised Isreal a spiritual kingdom. He promised king david, a man he loved and called a man after his own heart that one from him would sit on HIS throne. Jesus is Not sitting on davids throne today, he is sitting on his own throne.

for He has prepared a city for them.

Yes he does promise a spiritual kingdom, and Paul highlights this in Hebrews 11. It's the mystery that you still can not see.
Faithful Abraham

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (not one made by man's hands)
11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
The Heavenly Hope

13 These all died in faith,( who are these? These are the innumerable as the sand which is the by seashore, the SEED, all the believers in Christ ) not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

2. God in the OT promised a spiritual and literal kingdom. he spoke of when the servant would come and remove sin, when the gentiles would be brought into the kingdom, and also recieve the same blessings because of this sacrifice. But he also spoke of a literal kingdom. The jew in the day of Christ could not see the spiritual kingdom, which is why they were blinded. many in the church do not see the physical kingdom, thus they are blinded. That is why paul warned us not to be so proud. because just as God blinded Isreal and cut them off for unbelief, he can do the same for us. It is a dangerous thing to say God will not keep his promises.

God already fulfilled the literal land promise, it was condition upon Natural Israel's obedience and faith. I don't understand how you can miss this. But oh well! And God says this all over the OT.

As I have said before. If God will not keep his eternal promise to abraham, isaac and jacob and all who are physically descended from them. what is to stop him from taking our eternal salvation away?

God does keep His promise, it rests in Christ and His work on the Cross, and brings both Jew and gentile together, one flock, under Christ as it's shepherd. The eternal promise was never meant to applied to the physical SEED, but the spiritual SEED, but as a blessing to ALL families in ALL Nations.

Why do we ignore romans 11? everyone always want to go to passages where paul was warning the jewish people that God did not give them an automatic in because they were jews. or verses like this one, Where paul warns us not to make the same mistake the jews made, Who chose idolotry and played the harlot, instead of recieveing her messiah. That has nothign to do with Gods promises to physical isreal. why would we make it so?

I don't ignore Romans 11, I see it differently. I see the mystery that Paul talks about as being God's plan all along, which is God's salvation is meant for everybody, all nations, all ethnics, not just the Jews alone. And God did not forget the Jews, but they can be grafted back into the ONE tree just as easily as the wild olive branches. All they need to do is repent and believe through faith in Jesus Christ. And when they are grafted in, its like Wow, they add some much to the faith because they understand the OT much better then gentiles, like Paul! who was a pharisee of pharisees.

I love you brother, and our debates sharpen me, I enjoy them immensely. But this is a serious error IMO, just like some Christians see Works is necessary for salvation, you see like the Jews, who looked for a natural kingdom on a fallen earth and Jesus as a literal king on a literal throne. Jesus clearly refuted that error as I pointed out before.

We are just going to have to wait and see...In my flesh, when we meet and in Heaven I'd love to say I told you so, but I'm sure then we won't care who's right or wrong...and you know, I could be wrong too...

2. You can't use it as a model, because they were for differnt things.

I know they are two different things, what I mean by that is that framework of Daniel's prophecy is built like or in the same manner as Jeremiah's. No gap in Jeremiah's prophecy, or no other prophecies ever made, therefore it is unwarranted to put one in Daniel's. They both use 70 as a symbolic number and both have similar outcomes, the restoration of God's people, one is earth and the other spiritual.

Jeremiahs 70 years was to rest the land.
daniels 70 years was to allow the people in the land in spite of her sin. thus they are not related.

Yes, and rest of the land's counter part is the rest we have in Christ, to bad you can't see the relationship between the two prophecies. Prophecy often has a literal and earth fulfillment followed by a spiritual and ultimate fulfillment.
I might respond the rest of you posts later, I gotta run.

 

[Bookends]

t
The physical kingdom would have been useless if Christ did not come as suffering servant, because his kingdom would have been full of people who were still lost in sin, Sin had to be taken care of first. then the physical can happen. But God inserted a mystery because Isreal rejected him, Jesus could have made them all believe, and returned AFTER his death to set up his physical. But that would remove mans free will. God is not like that. So he blinded them until the time of the gentile is complete, as prophesied in the OT. at the end, he will return. This is what the disciples were looking for in matt 24. And why Jesus gave them those signs, of when he would return, to do what? set up his PHYSICAL kingdom.

Oh no! do we really have to turn this thread into Matt. 24? it's already of coarse, but I don't really mind. Maybe I'll start another thread. lol, Yes, I believe up to verse 34 it's all in the past.

 

[Bookends]

negative, there may have been a partial revival by some, but there was never a national revival. if their truly was, god owuld have GIVEN them their land back. the whole time they were in isreal they were under gentile rule. why? because they were still in sin. Isreal as a nation was still in sin, yes their was a remnant. but it was not complete. all the prophesies in the OT concerning the return if isreal from gentile captivity say there is a COMPLETE revival, where ALL isreal repents and is saved.

I get the impression of a nation revival when I read Ezra and Nehemiah, although it didn't last for long.

it never has been about sacrifice, sacrifice never took away sin, and it is not what daniel was praying for, he was praying for God to be merciful on his people in spite of their sin, and for god to remember his promise. His answer was that 70 weeks are determined

for his people, to make and end of sin (repentance and coming back to God, stopping their idolatry and playing the harlot, and receiving their messiah) to make an end of prophesy (concerning the nation of Israel) etc etc.

Well this is the major difference we have, if we could put a finger on one thing this might be it. I see the repentance and coming back to God through the Cross, Christ and His Church, in which I view as spiritual or true Israel. You see yet a literal, natural, or earthly fulfillment in Israel now. I don't see any promises made to a single nation (only a spiritual nation in 1 Peter 2:9) for anything concerning sin or an earthly theocratic economy of God. No place in the OT or NT do I see that the natural nation of Israel, or any natural nation as a whole repents. I see individual's repenting, but not a whole earthly nation. And I wonder what that would look like if it did happen.

Puts natural Israel will repent and accept Christ as a whole, and maybe this is the sign of Christ's 2nd coming, but that doesn't explain the need for a 1000 yr literal reign. Paul said that absent from the body and present with the Lord is far better then this world. Saints leaving the intermittent heavenly state and returning to a semi golden age where sin and death are still apparent doesn't make much logical since to me, neither does Christ leaving His heavenly throne for an earthly one, sounds like a demotion to me. lol.

Isreal was allowe back in spite of her sin, for 69 weeks they continued in sin but was allowed to stay, God promised after 69 weeks messiah would come, but then get cut off but not for himself, Then the city would be destroyed, the city would remain in ruin under gentile control through many wars and tribulations. Until finally a man comes and promises peace, but breaks that covenant by committing the abomination, where Jesus said there would be great tribulation such as never be seen until his return. It is this "time of jacobs trouble" which causes the nation of Isreal to call after God, causes them to repent, and causes them to put an end of their sin, it is THEN and only then that the 70 weeks is fulfilled.

As you well know for sure, I can show you how all this has been accomplished in the past using the bible and external sources.

disagree. Christ was the fulfillment of the promise to the whole world. not to the city or people of Isreal. Yes, they too were promised a redeemer, as we all were, but they were also promised something else.

Fair enough, but again I can demonstrate that the city Jerusalem is the anti-type of the heavenly Jerusalem namely heaven, the eternal state, and natural Israel is the anti-type of Christ: Christ as the head and the Church (throughout all ages) as His body.

I am just stating my belief, and why i disagree with you. it does not have to get heated. and we can always agree to disagree, this just happens to be my favorite subject. Always has been always will be. (well except for the gospel which we both agree on )

Agreed. And now we both know we have the same thing in common, I do have an interest in eschatology and creation, and the whole redemptive plan of God. That's where I get my screen name "Bookends" from. I appreciate your challenges, for when I think I understand something better or something concerning God and His word in a greater light, I change. Peace bro...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God already fulfilled the literal land promise, it was condition upon Natural Israel's obedience and faith. I don't understand how you can miss this. But oh well! And God says this all over the OT.[/b][/color]

God does keep His promise, it rests in Christ and His work on the Cross, and brings both Jew and gentile together, one flock, under Christ as it's shepherd. The eternal promise was never meant to applied to the physical SEED, but the spiritual SEED, but as a blessing to ALL families in ALL Nations.

You need to reread the promise.

a conditional covenant is, you do this, and in return for this I will give you that, or I will do this.

The mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant, we know this because of lev 26 tells them what will happen if they do not fulfill those conditions.

The palestinian covenant was not that way, God said, "I will" He said "I give this to your and your descendents as an EVERLASTING promise. He never told abraham only if they obey his commands, or do anything, He said I GIVE THIS TO YOU.

If God goes back on that promise, He lied,. If he lied to abraham, what is keeping him from lying to us?

Lev 26 is the condition they must keep to LIVE in the land that belongs to them, or be TAKEN out of the land which belongs to them, It is no way says God will break his promise, and the land would never belong to them, we know because he tells them what they must do to be returned to the land that BELONGS to them!

I don't ignore Romans 11, I see it differently. I see the mystery that Paul talks about as being God's plan all along, which is God's salvation is meant for everybody, all nations, all ethnics, not just the Jews alone. And God did not forget the Jews, but they can be grafted back into the ONE tree just as easily as the wild olive branches. All they need to do is repent and believe through faith in Jesus Christ. And when they are grafted in, its like Wow, they add some much to the faith because they understand the OT much better then gentiles, like Paul! who was a pharisee of pharisees.

But romans 11 is not about salvation, it is about gentile vs Isreal. and who has been given Gods commands and being given responsibility for spreading the gospel, and being Gods representative. Rom 9 is about salvation, rom 11 is about warning gentiles not to be so proud, for Gods promises are irrevokable, and Gods promise to even a nation (Isreal) will be fulfilled.

I love you brother, and our debates sharpen me, I enjoy them immensely. But this is a serious error IMO, just like some Christians see Works is necessary for salvation, you see like the Jews, who looked for a natural kingdom on a fallen earth and Jesus as a literal king on a literal throne. Jesus clearly refuted that error as I pointed out before.

You see, as many, that the church took over for Isreal and replaced it, I see the church as a spiritual entity, which in no way replaces the physical entity which is on earth. God promise to Isreal still stands, If the nation of Isreal and all who belong to it repented today and recieved Christ, and did all God told themn to in lev 26, they WOULD be restored to their land completely. why? it still belongs to them, no matter what we want to believe, As paul said, Gods promises are irrevocable,

We are just going to have to wait and see...In my flesh, when we meet and in Heaven I'd love to say I told you so, but I'm sure then we won't care who's right or wrong...and you know, I could be wrong too...

A big amen to this!!

I know they are two different things, what I mean by that is that framework of Daniel's prophecy is built like or in the same manner as Jeremiah's. No gap in Jeremiah's prophecy, or no other prophecies ever made, therefore it is unwarranted to put one in Daniel's. They both use 70 as a symbolic number and both have similar outcomes, the restoration of God's people, one is earth and the other spiritual.

Ah but that is the difference.

Jeremiahs prophesy says Isreal will be scattered, and the city in ruin, Daniels prophesy concerns Isreal being allowed to live in their land and the city . Thus when the city was destroyed, the prophesy is in limbo, of Course, daniel was told this would happen, when he was told all the things which would happen following the messiah being cut off. When messiah was cut off, the time of daniels prophesy concerning isreal ended, and was put on hold until all the things daniel was told would happen came to fruition. They are still occurring today, Jerusalem is still in gentile control, Isreal is still in dispersion throughout the world, and most of the land which belongs to them still fall under gentile control. Not to mention. Isreal is still in sin. Lev 26 is still active.

Yes, and rest of the land's counter part is the rest we have in Christ, to bad you can't see the relationship between the two prophecies. Prophecy often has a literal and earth fulfillment followed by a spiritual and ultimate fulfillment.

But the promise of Christ was given to all of us before Isreal was even formed, thus this does not make sense. The promise of land and Isreal as Gods people did not come until AFTER God promised all the world he would be blessed through abraham, in Christ. Daniels prayer was concerning the palestinian covenant, Not concerning the messianic covenant. thus you should not try to mix them together as one thing.


Abraham was given two covenants, the messianic (in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed) and the palestinian ( I give you and those who come after you this land, as an everlasting covenant between me and your people (abraham Isaac and Jacob) so many people want to combine these, or say one is no longer valid, when this just is not true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

will respond to the rest later, Have to get ready for my mens cell group, or bible study.

 

[Bookends]

You see, as many, that the church took over for Isreal and replaced it,

I do not see the church as a replacement. I do not hold to replacement theology. See this is what another of our differences and one of the main arguments we have. I see the Church as a continuation of true Israel, believing Israel.


A New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (this is the new covenant Jesus Himself talked about around the Lord's Supper, there is no other covenant after this, the old covenant is passed away. Never does the bible ever say its going to be revived again) — 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers (this can't be any clearer, who are their fathers? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob etc.) in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, (God would have given the land forever if they didn't break the covenant, since they broke it, God is not obligated to keep the Land promise to them...But the Land was not God's first intention, concern and/or plan, His plan in which the whole bible is about is Global redemption, not particular people group) though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel (the church is called the house of Israel) after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (this is why I went on that rant earlier in this post of who The Church is, We are the children of the promise, we are the seed of Abraham and Isaac - the spiritual seed, we are the temple, we are the chosen people of God etc. etc... and it was a good rant lol) 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (I think this is in reference to the woeing of the Holy Spirit, it's not that we don't teach, we plant and another waters, but God through His work and HOLY SPIRIT brings the increase...Granted this is a difficult verse, for it doesn't exactly fit a semi-golden age as well because it's taught in your system that some with fall away).


Isaiah 62


Assurance of Zion’s Salvation

62 For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
And her salvation as a lamp that burns.
2The Gentiles shall see your righteousness, (the gentiles are included)
And all kings your glory.
You shall be called by a new name,
Which the mouth of the Lord will name.
3 You shall also be a crown of glory
In the hand of the Lord,
And a royal diadem
In the hand of your God.

Revelation 3:12 written to a local church, not to us, but to them, and for us. 1st Century Christians

12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

I see the church as a spiritual entity, which in no way replaces the physical entity which is on earth. God promise to Isreal still stands, If the nation of Isreal and all who belong to it repented today and recieved Christ, and did all God told themn to in lev 26, they WOULD be restored to their land completely. why? it still belongs to them, no matter what we want to believe, As paul said, Gods promises are irrevocable,

If this happens, they will be grafted back into the ONE cultivated olive tree just as Paul was, along with all the other 1st century Jews who confessed Jesus as Lord. The 1st century Church was for the most part all Jews to begin with. They are the remnant that was saved out of the Great Harlot. They received the new name. They too are the inheritors of the new Jerusalem, they belong in the city of God, they are the children of the promise. The cultivated olive tree is All that branched that didn't break off (Mary the mother of Jesus, Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents, the disciples excluding Judas, ALL those who believed by faith before crucifixion) and the ones that did but where grafted back in, along with the wild branches (gentiles). Not all the branches were broken off this tree. God removed the barriers.

Abraham was given two covenants, the messianic (in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed) and the palestinian ( I give you and those who come after you this land, as an everlasting covenant between me and your people (abraham Isaac and Jacob) so many people want to combine these, or say one is no longer valid, when this just is not true.

So give me the scripture where the palestinian promise is unconditional so I can look it up. I think the problem is we have a hard time discerning between the house of Israel (God's people through-out of all time) and Israel of the flesh.


Peace bro