A word

[AnandaHya]

Anyone who has the gift of prophecy, or has been called as a prophet, will understand when I say that I did not want to make this post. But the voice of the Lord is not insistent, but rather quietly leading one to do as He wishes. I have from the Lord that I am not to answer critical words any more. So, in obedience to Him, hear these words or not.

In Christ

The testing has started. The dross will be removed from the gold and silver. Those who will not come to Me will not get many more chances. Those who lie about Me will grow even harder in their hearts. Those who do not love Me will go astray, and stumble, and fall. (ok not directed to Christians who LOVE and WORSHIP GOD) And My servants will prevail, just as I prevailed. (God's church)

I set a choice before you, with a question. Do you love Me? Will you follow Me? Will you become My servants? Or will you continue to love the knowledge of Me? Will you still follow what you believe? Will you still serve yourself and your pride? Will you live in Me? (God's church says YES YES LORD WE FOLLOW YOU)

Not all that you believe is from Me. And not all that you do is pleasing in My sight. And not all that you say or think is of faith. But My servants will not be so in the days to come. Everything they believe will be from Me, and they will speak My words, and they will do the things that are pleasing in My sight. And I will love them. (ok umm yeah GOD LOVES US NOW. sorry VW just saying. that is what God says to me, and then we go down hill from here. wow)

I hate your assemblies. I loath your offerings. I despise your service. Your prayers I do not hear, because they are for your own lusts. Your hands are dirty, and your lips have become numb. Your ears do not hear, nor do your eyes see. Who among you has a soft heart? Who is seeking truth in My Father's presence? Who has lost themselves for Me and to Me? Who has lost every other love, to know My love? Who has become My servant?

I am coming quickly. I am coming with a sword. I am coming to make war, to make an end, a complete ending of all the lies. I am coming to reward My servants, and to gather those who love My appearing. Will you be ashamed at My appearing, or will you have great joy? Either way, I am coming quickly.

my apologies i see the confusion now. VW can we talk?

 

[paulnsilas]

The five gift ministries are listed in Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

What are they for?
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until when?
Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(in other words, they will be with us until the return of Christ)



The manifestations are discussed in I Cor 12 and 14, primarily. There are nine of them.

7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The manifestations are proofs, or evidences, that a person is born again, that they have the gift of holy spirit residing in them. If you're a Christian, whether you know it or not, you have the ability to operate the manifestations. Most don't know it, or don't believe it, so they don't. But they can...

God bless.

I'm sorry shroom...i didn't make myself clear.
Those special miraculous gifts were given to the NEW Church.
We have received the FULL measure of God's Word. We are able to discern, to understand what the prophets and apostles said by READING (or hearing).

No one is raising anyone from the dead today or performing miracles like the Apostles did (though untold numbers are claiming to)

Jesus laid the Cornerstone ONCE.
The Apostles and prophets also laid their foundation ONCE.
Pentecost happened ONCE (and the miracle wasn't gibbering).

you can read this little bit if you like. I doubt you'll accept it though...these Latter Rain ideas will be with us to the end, i fear.

Answer: The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.

However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation? Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.

What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive. The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God. The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete. The ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.

I am aware that accepting the Biblical reality of this would cost one involved EVERYTHING (for a time), for if they were convicted and knew it was not of God they would have to make a decision...perhaps they would lose mother, father, brother, fellowship, "belonging"....

 

[AnandaHya]

I hate your assemblies. I loath your offerings. I despise your service. Your prayers I do not hear, because they are for your own lusts. Your hands are dirty, and your lips have become numb. Your ears do not hear, nor do your eyes see. Who among you has a soft heart? Who is seeking truth in My Father's presence? Who has lost themselves for Me and to Me? Who has lost every other love, to know My love? Who has become My servant?

I am coming quickly. I am coming with a sword. I am coming to make war, to make an end, a complete ending of all the lies. I am coming to reward My servants, and to gather those who love My appearing. Will you be ashamed at My appearing, or will you have great joy? Either way, I am coming quickly.

these words VW are caused for concern, and I speak to you out of love and I believe you have allowed your own fears and feelings cloud your words.

I can answer those questions. I know wonderful people and wonderful churches that are Bible based and I know organizations and tons of people who love, live and praise the Lord every day. We are working together to make this world a better place. I've a network of people from all walks of life helping me become the person God wants me to be and I try and help them do the same. We have a community. We took the kids on a job parade to show them what is needed to get a job in various professions. the business people, the police department, city hall, the fire department, the community center, some local churches and much more joined together to make time for a group of curious minds looking for their place in this world.

I am concerned for you my brother. find a good Bible based church to root yourself in, otherwise the plant with no water or light grows crooked. with love, your sister in Christ.

 

[AnandaHya]

I said I do not think the prophesy at the top of this thread is verbatim from Jesus Christ.

Then in your view, it cannot be a prophecy at all, correct ?


I did not say I do not think the gift ministries (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers) are no longer around. I believe the gift ministries function today, and are very necessary. I also believe in, and practice, the manifestations of holy spirit, one of which is prophesy.

When you practice prophecy, is it verbatim from Jesus Christ ? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm trying to understand if and how something that isn't verbatim from God can be properly called a prophecy....a prophecy being defined as a revelation divinely inspired by God. I'm guessing I wouldn't be far off the mark if I said that thousands or even tens of thousands claim to practice prophesy today. Surely I'm not expected to discern the entirety of these revelations ?......or am I ? Or are God's revelations meant only for each church building where these prophecies take place ?

Hi uncle fester:

my experience with prophesy is personal. God gives me dreams to prepare me for the next day. when I wake and read the Bible because of those dreams and trying to understand them, some passage of HIS Holy word jump out more then others. So I think and meditate on them during the day and when the problem happens during the day echoes the warnings in the dreams or visions, I have the Bible verses in my mind and heart to know how to respond to the situation in a manner God would have me respond. that is how I think the Holy Spirit and prophecy has worked in my life. I take it day by day, person by person, situation by situation, because Jesus told us in Matthew 6: 34

"Do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

I don't want to know the distant future, just enough to know to walk the path that God would have me tread TODAY. that is what I believe prophecy and walking in the Holy Spirit is. that is what it means to me at least.

i thought prophecy is defined as having revelation of things that happen before they happen and speaking the word of God into other people's lives, am i wrong in that definition?

 

[shroom2]

Those special miraculous gifts were given to the NEW Church.
We have received the FULL measure of God's Word. We are able to discern, to understand what the prophets and apostles said by READING (or hearing).

So you believe we have -more- than what the church at Corinth had? When, exactly, did this happen? Where in the bible does it refer to a "NEW" church? (something newer than what started at Pentecost)

No one is raising anyone from the dead today or performing miracles like the Apostles did (though untold numbers are claiming to)

So because you don't believe it, it doesn't happen. Is that it?

Jesus laid the Cornerstone ONCE.
The Apostles and prophets also laid their foundation ONCE.
Pentecost happened ONCE (and the miracle wasn't gibbering).

I'm beginning to think you have no idea what happened at Pentecost.

you can read this little bit if you like. I doubt you'll accept it though...these Latter Rain ideas will be with us to the end, i fear.

Latter Rain? Who coined that phrase? And you're right, I think whoever wrote this is wrong.

(wrong)Answer: The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.

However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation? Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.

What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive. The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God. The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete. The ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.

I am aware that accepting the Biblical reality of this would cost one involved EVERYTHING (for a time), for if they were convicted and knew it was not of God they would have to make a decision...perhaps they would lose mother, father, brother, fellowship, "belonging"....

As I said, I disagree with that line of reasoning.

Acts 8:30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Leadership, and gift ministries in the body, are valid and necessary.

 

[shroom2]

i thought prophecy is defined as having revelation of things that happen before they happen and speaking the word of God into other people's lives, am i wrong in that definition?

Prophesy can be forthtelling as well as foretelling. It is not always telling the future. In fact, from what I know, it is seldom telling the future, but it can be. I suppose "speaking the word of God into other people's lives" would be the same as forthtelling. 1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. Prophesy is words from God intended to build you up, to comfort you.

 

[AnandaHya]

So you believe we have -more- than what the church at Corinth had? When, exactly, did this happen? Where in the bible does it refer to a "NEW" church? (something newer than what started at Pentecost)

Acts 8:30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Leadership, and gift ministries in the body, are valid and necessary.

It is needed to build up and bring people to God. It is needed to build and maintain the church. We need the WHOLE body. Paul talked about the spiritual gifts being given to the WHOLE Church and each needed and to be valued EQUALLY. there is no hiearchy, not BETTER or HIGHER than another. we do not worship or preachers, our prophets, our teachers, our healers, our miracle workers.

We WORSHIP GOD and give GLORY TO GOD that He so loved us that He gave those gifts to people to guide them in this world of darkness and evil and temptations. To help strengthen and encourage our brethren the GOD LIVES and RULES and is ALL POWERFUL.

PNS brings up a lot of names and ideas I have now clue what she is talking about most days because I've never heard or cared to listen to those false doctrines, but God says she's still His child so I have to be nice to her. Sigh....

YouTube - I Can Only Imagine (with lyrics) - MercyMe

Hey PNS we are allowed to dream, Daniel did, and so did the man who gave Paul back his sight after his encounter with JESUS.

 

[paulnsilas]

So you believe we have -more- than what the church at Corinth had? When, exactly, did this happen? Where in the bible does it refer to a "NEW" church? (something newer than what started at Pentecost)

Yes...in the most important sense we have more than what the new church had (i.e.: the people messing up at corinth). They only knew IN PART. (God hadn't yet revealed everything) He gave, in order: JESUS (the Cornerstone) Laid once for all time.

He gave in order, Apostles (specifially chosen and empowered with full authority, full insspiration and the gift of prophecy: yet the only received what they were given as it was revealed.

Paul didn't know what would be penned to Timothy regarding church gov't when he wrote Corinthinas (or, if he did, he was not permitted to write it yet).

God gave prophets in those days also: He revealed some new things (both for canon, and for the edification of the believers): this was a miraculous gift, needed UNTIL the fullness of the WORD (perfect: mature, complete) was finished.

The miraculous gift of suddenly speaking in the languages of the gentiles (Pentecost) without having had to learn them were both SIGNS for the jews and the church, a demonstration of God's Power (which he has Joel prophesy would happen and Peter reiterated)...the disciples were able to quickly GO FORTH with the gospel in the languages of the nations.

that gift ceased when the gospel had reached nations where churches were planted and teachers were trained and they could do it THEMSELVES.

All the gifts the Apostles and prophets had CEASED. they are written down. the prophets only prophesied IN PART. what good does that do us NOW if we have that which is PERFECT (full, finished, delivered in maturity and fullness)? The Word.

this business of "gifts" of "word of knowledge", "prophetic utterances", gibbering in unintelligble speech are NEW THINGS. just a little more than 100 years old!

and none of them meet what would have been the criteria in the Apostolic era.

this is all deception, and its leading to a very SPECIFIC END (it's planned to happen this way).

So because you don't believe it, it doesn't happen. Is that it?

People claim it happens, and they pretend it does, but it's not really from God.
I see it "happening" everywhere. But its not authentic.

Even people who stand up and "utter" prophecies if they are truly honest deep in their heart of hearts know they are making it up. God is NOT speaking through prophets today.

I'm beginning to think you have no idea what happened at Pentecost.

I believe i know.
But what do you say happened?
I'm interested and will carefully consider your reply.

Latter Rain? Who coined that phrase? And you're right, I think whoever wrote this is wrong.

Well, a little research would reveal what it is, when it started and who is involved.
Rick Joyner, for example, is a member of the CFR and has a military intelligence background.

There is an agenda with this infiltration: its leading to a precise point.

As I said, I disagree with that line of reasoning.

Acts 8:30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Leadership, and gift ministries in the body, are valid and necessary.

UM...Philip?
the eunch? What does that have to do with anything.
We can all carry the gospel message, and gifted preachers and teachers can preach to the church and we can all be blessed.

We can study together and learn and be built up in our faith and grow.

Why do we need prophets? and why do we need emotional ecstaic experiential christianity?

 

[AnandaHya]

Prophesy can be forthtelling as well as foretelling. It is not always telling the future. In fact, from what I know, it is seldom telling the future, but it can be. I suppose "speaking the word of God into other people's lives" would be the same as forthtelling. 1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. Prophesy is words from God intended to build you up, to comfort you.

thanks that is what I thought and have been taught but mmmm some of the things said on this site make me wonder if I'm the only one here who thought so.

lol I'd rather be forthtelling then foretelling.

Do you know when the elders lay hands on new believers sometimes they tell a prophecy concerning what ministry and spiritual gifts that person will be given by the Holy Spirit and that can lead the person into that branch of the ministry? that is what it talks about in the Bible but I only hear of it happening rarely. Of course Satan sends in false prophets and false teachers to corrupt it and make people not believe that Holy Spirit works in that way.

But God is in control. we are what we are because God tells us that we are HIS. lol

we are but flowers fading and waves toss in the see...

I used to sing this when I was young and thought everyone could see as God sees: through the eyes of our heart:

YouTube - open the eyes of my heart lord

OPEN THE EYES OF MY HEART LORD!

I was too young to know that most people didn't believe it could happen: seeing God and as He sees the world.

 

[VW]

Prophesy can be forthtelling as well as foretelling. It is not always telling the future. In fact, from what I know, it is seldom telling the future, but it can be. I suppose "speaking the word of God into other people's lives" would be the same as forthtelling. 1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. Prophesy is words from God intended to build you up, to comfort you.

But if one is not living in the grace of God, if they have distanced themselves from Him, do you imagine that He will speak words of comfort to such a one? No! He will show them that they are not drawing near to Him, with words that cut deep, as we see from the reaction to His words.

 

[paulnsilas]

PNS brings up a lot of names and ideas I have now clue what she is talking about most days because I've never heard or cared to listen to those false doctrines, but God says she's still His child so I have to be nice to her. Sigh....

YouTube - I Can Only Imagine (with lyrics) - MercyMe

Hey PNS we are allowed to dream, Daniel did, and so did the man who gave Paul back his sight after his encounter with JESUS.

LOL. You claim (another falsehood) that you don't listen to those doctrines, but that's the brand of religion you practise.

Lots of good works, lots of fear-based "preaching" mixed with contemporary definitions of love peace and unity. Unity in THE faith is known by doctrine: those in THE faith recognize each other, and are unified.

you're not Paul or Daniel. you're a false prophet who has not recanted channeling Jesus Christ (which is sinful).

you don't have to be nice to me.
Just put me back on ignore please. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

[AnandaHya]

Why do we need prophets? and why do we need emotional ecstaic experiential christianity?

Ok PNS, I didn't realize they were the same thing.

real prophets have NOTHING to do with emotional ecstaic experiential christianity. At least not in my book. you need to separate the two in your mind, we are not talking about the same things.

the fake speaking in tongues and demon fest orgies that I watch after you send me some names and I googled is what I told you: demon fest orgies that I have no clue about until you sent those names to me.

I live a somewhat shelter live because I let the Holy Spirit guide me. I'm not interested in false doctrine unless I meet a person being deceived by it then I learn out of love for that person not because I believe the crap, but how can I convince them they are on the wrong path if I don't know what they really believe?

I'm more interested in quantum mechanics, genetic research, medical technology and the like.

However, I must tell you the gift of prophecy is alive and at work today, you just keep looking at the fake and false prophets. I will pray for you.

Channelling??? you don't channel the Holy Spirit, you merely speak as God directs you to speak, just as you should LIVE as GOD tells you to live. fine I'll put you back on ignore.

 

[paulnsilas]

But if one is not living in the grace of God, if they have distanced themselves from Him, do you imagine that He will speak words of comfort to such a one? No! He will show them that they are not drawing near to Him, with words that cut deep, as we see from the reaction to His words.

The reaction you are getting is sharp rebuke for your false claim to speak as Jesus Christ, words verbatim.

But, tell yourself whatever makes you feel better about your condition. You've already received your reward - the admiration of the unlearned.

VW: God will not hold you guiltless for this blasphemy.

 

[VW]

Why do we need prophets? and why do we need emotional ecstaic experiential christianity?

Ok PNS, I didn't realize they were the same thing.

real prophets have NOTHING to do with emotional ecstaic experiential christianity. At least not in my book. you need to separate the two in your mind, we are not talking about the same things.

the fake speaking in tongues and demon fest orgies that I watch after you send me some names and I googled is what I told you: demon fest orgies that I have no clue about until you sent those names to me.

I live a somewhat shelter live because I let the Holy Spirit guide me. I'm not interested in false doctrine unless I meet a person being deceived by it then I learn out of love for that person not because I believe the crap, but how can I convince them they are on the wrong path if I don't know what they really believe?

I'm more interested in quantum mechanics, genetic research, medical technology and the like.

However, I must tell you the gift of prophecy is alive and at work today, you just keep looking at the fake and false prophets. I will pray for you.

Channelling??? you don't channel the Holy Spirit, you merely speak as God directs you to speak, just as you should LIVE as GOD tells you to live. fine I'll put you back on ignore.

Thank you sister,

In Christ.

 

[paulnsilas]

Why do we need prophets? and why do we need emotional ecstaic experiential christianity?

Ok PNS, I didn't realize they were the same thing.

real prophets have NOTHING to do with emotional ecstaic experiential christianity. At least not in my book. you need to separate the two in your mind, we are not talking about the same things.

the fake speaking in tongues and demon fest orgies that I watch after you send me some names and I googled is what I told you: demon fest orgies that I have no clue about until you sent those names to me.

I live a somewhat shelter live because I let the Holy Spirit guide me. I'm not interested in false doctrine unless I meet a person being deceived by it then I learn out of love for that person not because I believe the crap, but how can I convince them they are on the wrong path if I don't know what they really believe?

I'm more interested in quantum mechanics, genetic research, medical technology and the like.

However, I must tell you the gift of prophecy is alive and at work today, you just keep looking at the fake and false prophets. I will pray for you.

Channelling??? you don't channel the Holy Spirit, you merely speak as God directs you to speak, just as you should LIVE as GOD tells you to live. fine I'll put you back on ignore.

Thank you.

 

[shroom2]

But if one is not living in the grace of God, if they have distanced themselves from Him, do you imagine that He will speak words of comfort to such a one? No! He will show them that they are not drawing near to Him, with words that cut deep, as we see from the reaction to His words.

I don't care what YOU say a word of prophesy is. I go by what God's Word says it is. And a word of prophesy given among the body of Christ will be I Cor 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. It will NOT be God expressing his displeasure at His children. Especially not in a venue such as this.

I do not believe those words you typed at the top of this thread are "His" words.

 

[shroom2]

Yes...in the most important sense we have more than what the new church had (i.e.: the people messing up at corinth). They only knew IN PART. (God hadn't yet revealed everything) He gave, in order: JESUS (the Cornerstone) Laid once for all time.

He gave in order, Apostles (specifially chosen and empowered with full authority, full insspiration and the gift of prophecy: yet the only received what they were given as it was revealed.

Paul didn't know what would be penned to Timothy regarding church gov't when he wrote Corinthinas (or, if he did, he was not permitted to write it yet).

God gave prophets in those days also: He revealed some new things (both for canon, and for the edification of the believers): this was a miraculous gift, needed UNTIL the fullness of the WORD (perfect: mature, complete) was finished.

I believe our fundamental problem is what does "when that which is perfect is come" mean? You believe it means the Word of God as we have it today, after everyone was done writing, and the books were assembled into what we know as the bible. Right? I do not think that is what that phrase is referring to. I believe it is referring to Jesus Christ. Specifically, the return of Christ, and that has not happened yet. That is when prophesy will fail, tongues will cease, knowledge will vanish, etc. Until that time, the gift ministries and the manifestations are here and available to use. I submit that we still only know in part. Do you know and understand everything, "even as ye are known"? I don't. In many areas, we still see "through a glass, darkly", and that will continue until the return.

If we can't agree on what "when that which is perfect is come" means, we'll never agree on these other things.

The miraculous gift of suddenly speaking in the languages of the gentiles (Pentecost) without having had to learn them were both SIGNS for the jews and the church, a demonstration of God's Power (which he has Joel prophesy would happen and Peter reiterated)...the disciples were able to quickly GO FORTH with the gospel in the languages of the nations.

They still are. Speaking in tongues also builds us up spiritually, and we are encouraged to do it. (assuming you agree Corinthians was written "to the church")

I Cor 14:4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;
I Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues...

that gift ceased when the gospel had reached nations where churches were planted and teachers were trained and they could do it THEMSELVES.

No, it didn't. Again, I think you read way too much into what "when that which is perfect is come" means.

All the gifts the Apostles and prophets had CEASED. they are written down. the prophets only prophesied IN PART. what good does that do us NOW if we have that which is PERFECT (full, finished, delivered in maturity and fullness)? The Word.

see above.... ;-)

this business of "gifts" of "word of knowledge", "prophetic utterances", gibbering in unintelligble speech are NEW THINGS. just a little more than 100 years old!

That is simply not true.

and none of them meet what would have been the criteria in the Apostolic era.

this is all deception, and its leading to a very SPECIFIC END (it's planned to happen this way).

I suggest that you have never been taught properly what the manifestations are. You fall into the category of "I don't understand it, therefore it cannot be right".

People claim it happens, and they pretend it does, but it's not really from God.
I see it "happening" everywhere. But its not authentic.

Some of it isn't, for sure. Faith healers who whop a person on the head and send them reeling is not of God. Walking into a church where everyone is speaking (yelling) in tongues at the same time is not right, and Corinthians tells us so. People becoming "slain in the spirit" is not right. God will never possess you. Remember, satan is out to make God look bad. And one of the ways he does this is by misuse of the manifestations. BUT. That does not mean that all occurrences of the manifestations are off.

Even people who stand up and "utter" prophecies if they are truly honest deep in their heart of hearts know they are making it up.

I don't see where you have the knowledge or authority to make that statement.

God is NOT speaking through prophets today.

Yes, He does. But as we see in this thread, not everyone claiming to be speaking for God is in fact doing so.

I believe i know.
But what do you say happened?
I'm interested and will carefully consider your reply.

The Day of Pentecost is the birth of the Christian Church. It is the first time it was possible to become born of God's incorruptible seed, to have holy spirit -born- inside. It's what Jesus Christ came to make available. Before Pentecost, everyone was either Jew or Gentile. Now we have a third group of people, the Church of God, Christians. We have Christ in us. We have everlasting life. It's a tremendous thing. If satan had known the bigness of it, he never would have crucified Jesus Christ! 1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Part of this new birth involves the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit, enabling us to do the same works Jesus Christ did. (John 14:12) The "miracle of pentecost" was not that the apostles spoke in tongues, but that the tongues they spoke were understood by others present.

...enough on that for now, but I'll be happy to continue if you're interested.

Well, a little research would reveal what it is, when it started and who is involved.
Rick Joyner, for example, is a member of the CFR and has a military intelligence background.

You're right, I could have googled it.....

There is an agenda with this infiltration: its leading to a precise point.

Satan also has an agenda... To hide and dumb down and obfuscate the power we have as sons of God. The manifestations are a good thing.

UM...Philip?
the eunch? What does that have to do with anything.
We can all carry the gospel message, and gifted preachers and teachers can preach to the church and we can all be blessed.

We can study together and learn and be built up in our faith and grow.

true.

Why do we need prophets?

Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

and why do we need emotional ecstaic experiential christianity?

To be blunt, you do not understand the manifestations, so you belittle and ridicule. Again, they are a good thing, and God wants us to use them.

God bless.

 

[superdave5221]

I believe our fundamental problem is what does "when that which is perfect is come" mean? You believe it means the Word of God as we have it today, after everyone was done writing, and the books were assembled into what we know as the bible. Right? I do not think that is what that phrase is referring to. I believe it is referring to Jesus Christ. Specifically, the return of Christ, and that has not happened yet.
God bless.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child ; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three ; but the greatest of these is love.

What is Paul talking about here? He is saying that the gifts of prophecy, etc. will be done away with, and only faith, hope, and love will abide. Certainly all of these things existed when he made this statement, so what future event is he talking about in which those "gifts" will be done away?

It cannot be the end of times, when Jesus returns. He says that faith and hope will abide. What need would there be for faith and hope, if Christ has returned? Why would we hope and have need of faith for that which we have?

In verse 10, the word "perfect" in it's Greek context means "complete". In the context of verses 11 and 12, Paul is talking about perfect knowledge, (as opposed to the incomplete or errant knowledge which will be replaced by the perfect knowledge) in our salvation, and in our certainty of Christ's return. That knowledge is contained in the completed New Testament bible. It is not surprising that those who would claim to be prophets would have a disdain for the bible, for it makes them obsolete.

It is certain that no "new" revelations (not contained in the bible) have come from those claiming to be prophets. And that is what prophets do. They reveal God's will to us. Reveal means that which was previously unknown. Since we have a complete knowledge of God's will contained in the bible, along with Holy Spirit to interpret it for us, there is no need today for prophets.

Is it not telling that the bible speaks not of true prophets of God in the last days? The bible mentions only false prophets in the last days.

Hebrews 1: 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

We are fortunate to have a collection of the sayings and doings of the Son. It is called the Gospels.

 

[shroom2]

...We are fortunate to have a collection of the sayings and doings of the Son. It is called the Gospels.

Respectfully, the Gospels tell of Jesus' life here on earth. Full of good stuff, no doubt. Reading the Gospels is how we get to know Jesus. But since Pentecost, we are living in the Church age. The books of the bible written specifically TO us are the church epistles. Romans through Thessalonians. It's there where the Mystery is revealed (Eph), the manifestations are explained (Cor), the mechanics of our salvation is described (Rom), Christ's return for the church is detailed (Thes), etc.

God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child ; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three ; but the greatest of these is love.

What is Paul talking about here? He is saying that the gifts of prophecy, etc. will be done away with, and only faith, hope, and love will abide. Certainly all of these things existed when he made this statement, so what future event is he talking about in which those "gifts" will be done away?

It cannot be the end of times, when Jesus returns. He says that faith and hope will abide. What need would there be for faith and hope, if Christ has returned? Why would we hope and have need of faith for that which we have?

In verse 10, the word "perfect" in it's Greek context means "complete". In the context of verses 11 and 12, Paul is talking about perfect knowledge, (as opposed to the incomplete or errant knowledge which will be replaced by the perfect knowledge) in our salvation, and in our certainty of Christ's return. That knowledge is contained in the completed New Testament bible. It is not surprising that those who would claim to be prophets would have a disdain for the bible, for it makes them obsolete.

It is certain that no "new" revelations (not contained in the bible) have come from those claiming to be prophets. And that is what prophets do. They reveal God's will to us. Reveal means that which was previously unknown. Since we have a complete knowledge of God's will contained in the bible, along with Holy Spirit to interpret it for us, there is no need today for prophets.

Is it not telling that the bible speaks not of true prophets of God in the last days? The bible mentions only false prophets in the last days.

Hebrews 1: 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

We are fortunate to have a collection of the sayings and doings of the Son. It is called the Gospels.

Agree, The "thing" which will be perfected is Gods letter to us. It was incomplete at the time of Paul and the apostles. so prophesies and tongues were needed. For the word was not yet complete. It was also used as a sign for the world who were just coming to know Christ.

Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. He has not changed, nor have his commands, his love and his desires for the church. If he wanted us to know more things than he gave us in his word. he would not have stopped inspiring scripture. The fact he has tells us there is nothing else we need as the church to function and know his will.