Adam was not deceived but chose to eat of the forbidden tree. Why?
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Both Adam and Eve were guilty. St. Paul says "by one MAN death entered the world", so he doesn't excuse Adam either. The Good News is, as by Adam death came to all, so by Christ, the New Adam, Life and Righteousness will come to many, as the Free Gift of God, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Eve was guilty for listening to the Serpent, loving it more than God. Adam was guilty for listening to his wife, loving her more than God. Christ alone, being guiltless, listened to His Father alone, and redeemed our fallen race from death.
God Bless.
God Bless.
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C
I can appreciate why a female's ego might feel offended by such an inference, but God saw fit to make the male the leader in a marriage relationship, and the female subordinate to him, because she was the first to sin.
Paul also made reference to this too, in respect of the need for male leading/overseeing the matters of the church, and that women should not have leadership over the males or teach them on spiritual matters. This seems consistent with God making the male the leader in a male/female family relationships.
Paul was not being a masogenist, he was just honouring God's order in things, and he knew that Satan saw the women as being the soft touch and therefore he would attempt to bring deception in through her.
And now, the Adam Eve error is being repeated again in certain church groups. The modern Eve has decided to listen to Satan's lie that they can have leadership over men in the church, and men in their ignorance and/or gutlessness, have bitten into that apple and allowed it to happen. I'm more angry at the men at this disastrous attack on the integrity of God's church. I can't begin to imagine how much anger God feels about it all. But He has not let the faithful remnant be seduced, He has pulled them out of the morass.
Paul also made reference to this too, in respect of the need for male leading/overseeing the matters of the church, and that women should not have leadership over the males or teach them on spiritual matters. This seems consistent with God making the male the leader in a male/female family relationships.
Paul was not being a masogenist, he was just honouring God's order in things, and he knew that Satan saw the women as being the soft touch and therefore he would attempt to bring deception in through her.
And now, the Adam Eve error is being repeated again in certain church groups. The modern Eve has decided to listen to Satan's lie that they can have leadership over men in the church, and men in their ignorance and/or gutlessness, have bitten into that apple and allowed it to happen. I'm more angry at the men at this disastrous attack on the integrity of God's church. I can't begin to imagine how much anger God feels about it all. But He has not let the faithful remnant be seduced, He has pulled them out of the morass.
I dont think so
Usually a woman takes leadership when theres actually no other males around, or in case of say Queen Elizabeth, she didnt have any brothers. Is not to say women cannot or never can lead. Its just whoever God appoints. He can remove men from leadership if they fail not simply cos they are men but they dont rule well. A lot of men dont rule well or completely abandon their families, leaving women no choice...its not always the case that women have stepped over men to rule.
Usually a woman takes leadership when theres actually no other males around, or in case of say Queen Elizabeth, she didnt have any brothers. Is not to say women cannot or never can lead. Its just whoever God appoints. He can remove men from leadership if they fail not simply cos they are men but they dont rule well. A lot of men dont rule well or completely abandon their families, leaving women no choice...its not always the case that women have stepped over men to rule.
C
That's as far as the world, or commerce and the like is concerned. But as far as the church is concerned, it should never be. That is unless there is no man around that is available to stand his ground and maintain his loyalty to God, and do what is right. That might be the situation in man's church, but it is not so in the church of God, I am assured!
the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith
(Matthew 23:23)
having sinned, having witnessed the murder and lies of the serpent, and having faced God's examination of these events, justice and mercy and faith
(Matthew 23:23)
they knew justice.
having been spared God's curse, and given the promise of The Seed Who would come and crush the serpent,
they knew mercy.
having believed the promise, and acting on that promise changing the name of Woman - as though a new creation
they knew faith.
God knows all things; He knows good and He knows evil.
but God does not do 'all things' - He only does good, and never evil.
Adam, having known good, and now having known evil too, chooses goodness. calling his wife 'living' when in the flesh she is dying, is an expression of faith in the goodness of God & the faithfulness of His promise. it is an expression of comprehending that God works all things for the good of those who believe. it is an expression of trust in Him.
in that he does this, Adam is become like Christ, who suffered meekly on earth, without wavering, walking in the will of God, looking forward always to His redemption. Adam is looking towards Redemption, 'calling that which is not, as though it were' - knowing that even the present evil will be used for God's glory.
a lot of men do what is right in their OWN eyes, not what God wants and is right
this actually happened a few times in the Old testament there was no man who was righteous so Deborah was appointed judge
and also a lot of kings did evil (and a few queens) but since there were a lot of sons as back ups few women ever got to the throne.
Jesus trained Mary to be a disciple even though she was female and not the original twelve disciples. So women were not excluded from Jesus circle or taking lesser roles.
Women were actually the first to witness he resurrection but they were not believed. Such were mens attitudes at the time they always had to be first, but they actually didnt stick around. The women were there first.
I think the men just got used to the privelige of being first but lots of them abused it. Thats why Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first haha
clever one Jesus
this actually happened a few times in the Old testament there was no man who was righteous so Deborah was appointed judge
and also a lot of kings did evil (and a few queens) but since there were a lot of sons as back ups few women ever got to the throne.
Jesus trained Mary to be a disciple even though she was female and not the original twelve disciples. So women were not excluded from Jesus circle or taking lesser roles.
Women were actually the first to witness he resurrection but they were not believed. Such were mens attitudes at the time they always had to be first, but they actually didnt stick around. The women were there first.
I think the men just got used to the privelige of being first but lots of them abused it. Thats why Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first haha
clever one Jesus
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I like this idea of a timeline, and yours is apt, so decided to try to make one for the whole chapter.
The Original Sin
-The serpent as a character is introduced, explained what he is, an animal, and his trait of craftiness.
-The serpent tells the woman the First Lie
-The woman repeats back the truth of what God really said, sealing her guilt further
-The serpent hits her with the Second Lie
-The serpent tells her the Third Lie
-Woman undergoes the first consciousness change as a result of the dragon's Lies. This is the first demonic possession. It's a simple sentence inside the Fatal Verse, but this is significant. The Lies forged on the tongue of the Devil, words formed by the twisting of the dragon's breath, and then cast at the woman have caused a change in her before she even eats. The Lies have overrun her mind and now she is looking at the fruit whereas before she really didn't even consider even going near it enough to touch it. Now while she is looking at the fruit, she is thinking that it is a fruit to be desired and that the fruit will even make her wise.
The Fall
-Woman eats
-Woman gives to man
-Man eats
-Man now undergoes his first consciousness change, but it's not like with the woman how she underwent the change becoming possessed by the Devil and starts going on an ego-trip. Man was not deceived indeed as the verses of Paul indicate and get cited. So Adam's first shift in consciousness is a direct result of eating the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. After eating he knows he is naked and knows shame for the first time and tries to make some crude clothing from fig leaves.
-Man hears God's Voice walking in the Garden and he now also knows fear for the first time and because of this he hides from God
The Confessions
-God calls out to the Man, a Father crying out in the Spirit for his lost son; "Where are you?"
-Man comes forward and tells God he hid himself because he felt fear because he was naked
-God asks; who told him he was naked? God asks further, if man had eaten from the tree?
-Man confesses the First Confession that the woman gave it to him and he ate
-God asks woman; what is this you have done?
-Woman confesses the Second Confession that the serpent charmed her and she ate
The Judgement of God
-God asks nothing of the serpent but immediately he curses the serpent with the First Curse who from here forward is called Satan because of the Enmity in the curse. He is known as Devil because of what he did, the first sin (for he is the first sinner), the Lies (for he is the father of Lies). The serpent is outright cursed, no hope for him. Also the prophecy of the seed of the woman, later in the Bible elaborated further to be the one born unto the Virgin Bride that will defeat Satan is woven into the judgement against the serpent. Jesus is that one that is both fully Son of Man and Son of God that will defeat the dragon and his whole kingdom in the Final Battle and this prophecy all ties back to this moment, the beginning called from the end, and the end from the beginning.
-God tells woman to desire man and obey man and the Second Curse, the painful childbirth
-God tells man to toil and that he will die, the famous Dust to Dust Verse, and the Third Curse, the entire earth will be against him and not yield its strength as before.
Exit Eden
-Man realizes there is some hope for man and woman in God's Promises made in The Judgement of God upon the serpent, woman, and man in order of their guiltiness. Adam names the first woman Eve because she is destined to be mother of all living
-God makes proper clothing of skins for the man and the woman
-God drives them out of the Garden of Eden lest they eat the Tree of Life and live forever in their fallen state
-God makes the angels and the Sword to guard the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life
The Original Sin
-The serpent as a character is introduced, explained what he is, an animal, and his trait of craftiness.
-The serpent tells the woman the First Lie
-The woman repeats back the truth of what God really said, sealing her guilt further
-The serpent hits her with the Second Lie
-The serpent tells her the Third Lie
-Woman undergoes the first consciousness change as a result of the dragon's Lies. This is the first demonic possession. It's a simple sentence inside the Fatal Verse, but this is significant. The Lies forged on the tongue of the Devil, words formed by the twisting of the dragon's breath, and then cast at the woman have caused a change in her before she even eats. The Lies have overrun her mind and now she is looking at the fruit whereas before she really didn't even consider even going near it enough to touch it. Now while she is looking at the fruit, she is thinking that it is a fruit to be desired and that the fruit will even make her wise.
The Fall
-Woman eats
-Woman gives to man
-Man eats
-Man now undergoes his first consciousness change, but it's not like with the woman how she underwent the change becoming possessed by the Devil and starts going on an ego-trip. Man was not deceived indeed as the verses of Paul indicate and get cited. So Adam's first shift in consciousness is a direct result of eating the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. After eating he knows he is naked and knows shame for the first time and tries to make some crude clothing from fig leaves.
-Man hears God's Voice walking in the Garden and he now also knows fear for the first time and because of this he hides from God
The Confessions
-God calls out to the Man, a Father crying out in the Spirit for his lost son; "Where are you?"
-Man comes forward and tells God he hid himself because he felt fear because he was naked
-God asks; who told him he was naked? God asks further, if man had eaten from the tree?
-Man confesses the First Confession that the woman gave it to him and he ate
-God asks woman; what is this you have done?
-Woman confesses the Second Confession that the serpent charmed her and she ate
The Judgement of God
-God asks nothing of the serpent but immediately he curses the serpent with the First Curse who from here forward is called Satan because of the Enmity in the curse. He is known as Devil because of what he did, the first sin (for he is the first sinner), the Lies (for he is the father of Lies). The serpent is outright cursed, no hope for him. Also the prophecy of the seed of the woman, later in the Bible elaborated further to be the one born unto the Virgin Bride that will defeat Satan is woven into the judgement against the serpent. Jesus is that one that is both fully Son of Man and Son of God that will defeat the dragon and his whole kingdom in the Final Battle and this prophecy all ties back to this moment, the beginning called from the end, and the end from the beginning.
-God tells woman to desire man and obey man and the Second Curse, the painful childbirth
-God tells man to toil and that he will die, the famous Dust to Dust Verse, and the Third Curse, the entire earth will be against him and not yield its strength as before.
Exit Eden
-Man realizes there is some hope for man and woman in God's Promises made in The Judgement of God upon the serpent, woman, and man in order of their guiltiness. Adam names the first woman Eve because she is destined to be mother of all living
-God makes proper clothing of skins for the man and the woman
-God drives them out of the Garden of Eden lest they eat the Tree of Life and live forever in their fallen state
-God makes the angels and the Sword to guard the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life
newsflash many women now dont choose to get married
or they are widowed, or divorced
certainly Mary was not
so they are learning from Jesus directly and do not have a husband as their head
there is no rule saying every female has to be married and in relationship with a male. If God says every female has to be married, He would make it so, but many females are not and they are not worried about this.
It is far better to be singles as you are than miserable married.
In Genesis part of the problem was men were taking wives of whoever they saw was fair indiscriminately. That is why God made a flood. A man could have twenty wives, a hundred wives and concubines. The earth was full of violence because of all the fighting, was it over the wives, who knows.
There was no other reason why men would be fighting and violent would they as the earth back then was vast, plenty of resources, not polluted as it is today.
or they are widowed, or divorced
certainly Mary was not
so they are learning from Jesus directly and do not have a husband as their head
there is no rule saying every female has to be married and in relationship with a male. If God says every female has to be married, He would make it so, but many females are not and they are not worried about this.
It is far better to be singles as you are than miserable married.
In Genesis part of the problem was men were taking wives of whoever they saw was fair indiscriminately. That is why God made a flood. A man could have twenty wives, a hundred wives and concubines. The earth was full of violence because of all the fighting, was it over the wives, who knows.
There was no other reason why men would be fighting and violent would they as the earth back then was vast, plenty of resources, not polluted as it is today.
C
I'd agree with that. Indeed, they shouldn't stay put in any abusive environment if they can escape, IMO.
I didn't encounter any abusive situations in the man-derived hybrid churches I wandered through after becoming a Christian, but there could have been hidden abuses. I did find a lot of ignorance and poor leadership.
I didn't encounter any abusive situations in the man-derived hybrid churches I wandered through after becoming a Christian, but there could have been hidden abuses. I did find a lot of ignorance and poor leadership.
C
I decided not to mention this in my earlier post, because God could just as easily have given the leadership role to Eve, not Adam, if their roles in Satan's deception had been reversed. If that had been the case, then He would speak to the woman first in matters of family and church.
The take out here for me is that none of us ought rely on our own understanding, and both genders need to be aware that they can be deceived. Therefore it's imperative that both husband and wife have an understanding of God's ways, and they need to discuss these to achieve accuracy. If they are both of a teachable spirit, then they will achieve that. The male's leadership role in the family and in the church of God is not as of a Lordship type, we have but one Lord, but it is one of wisdom, compassion and justice, of godly love.
The take out here for me is that none of us ought rely on our own understanding, and both genders need to be aware that they can be deceived. Therefore it's imperative that both husband and wife have an understanding of God's ways, and they need to discuss these to achieve accuracy. If they are both of a teachable spirit, then they will achieve that. The male's leadership role in the family and in the church of God is not as of a Lordship type, we have but one Lord, but it is one of wisdom, compassion and justice, of godly love.
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Where does this idea of subordination come from again?...
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
Thanks Mem for this question. Most all indoctrinated believers have been taught early on by general concensus that Adam was the bad guy who doomed mankind to death and so Christ was sent to save some of the human race from this bad thing that Adam did. However, it is hard to reconcile this view with the fact that the Bible says that Adam was not deceived. Further, it is hard to reconcile this view with the fact that the Bible pictures Adam as a type of Christ. The deep sleep Adam experiences in Genesis during which Eve is created is a picture of Jesus experiencing judgment and death on the cross which caused believers to be created. 'Sleep' is a parable word for death in the Bible and 'deep 'is a parable word for judgment. Eve is a picture of all believers, Christ's bride. While Adam is a picture of Christ. Based on a few scriptures, I find it more likely that the Genesis story is showing how sin entered the world through the woman and not through Adam. The New Testament speaks of the similtude of Adam's transgression while saying that he is the figure of Christ: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." It stands to reason that if Adam is a figure of Christ, of him that was to come, the death that Adam experienced may have been like Christ's death in picture. For example, suppose Adam took upon himself Eve's sin in order to save her. Could this be the similtude of Adam's transgression that is mentioned? This is what Christ did for believers. Christ was not deceived. But, still, he who knew no sin (Christ) became sin that the believers might become the righteousness of God. We learn in the new testament that Adam was sown as an earthly fleshly being and Christ was raised as a spiritual being. We read:"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." This is interesting because we know that Christ sowed himself as a grain of wheat is sown. Yet the scripture here uses the same 'sown' language to talk about Adam. I find it hard to call stupid sin, original sin, which people often attribute to Adam as being something called 'sown'. Especially if it is raised a spiritual body. Nevertheless, it is true no matter how you look at things that humans had sin that had to be dealt with, so maybe you might say it is a moot point. Sin is still what Christ came to save us from.
C
Where does this idea of subordination come from again?...
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
16 To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
God said the above!
We also have to consider the implication of husband and wife being one flesh, as per Jesus' comment.
A certain part of the one flesh has a different function to the other parts, but they all need to work together for the good of the whole.
There are parts of the body that can be regarded as weak spots, and vulnerable to attack by an enemy. Paul was just reminding the men and women in the church of this fact. He was in effect asking men to exercise their responsibilities as head of the family and spiritual leaders of the church of God. In order for the men to be able to exercise these responsibilies, Paul was more or less asking the women not to offer opinions on scriptural matters and matters of leadership in the church unless it's with members of their own gender, but discuss them by all means in private with their husbands. This doesn't infer that women are inferior to men, but each gender has God given roles and responsibilities that must be met, and never deferred or usurped.
Now, I'm talking about members of the church of God here. For any other church, yes, go ahead and make your own arrangements if you will, but be warned that Jesus will not be in your midst.
Where does this idea of subordination come from again?...
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
...Is it here?
I do know this reason is given why wives should not govern, or exercise authority, some translation say usurp over her husband, but to learn in quietness, that is in every place (of worship). Certainly this isn't speaking of every single place including the home, This suggests the idea that any of her opinions are of inferior regard so she might as well just be quiet. I realize though that many believe exactly that. Learning in quietness I mean, shouldn't everyone do? This doesn't suggest that her husband should be teaching her instead during a worship service. And she shouldn't try to usurp, overthrow, supplant him in any place at all if ruling alongside means not ruling over him.
And that role of leadership is supposed to be given by the wife to the husband.
Meaning if you can not give a leadership role to a man...do not date, do not get married.
The husband loves his wife...so he doesn't treat her like some sort of glorified drone...he loves her as if she was an extension of himself.
One of the lessons of Genesis and repeated often through the scriptures is to be very very careful about who you marry. Ensure that he can practice servant leadership in a direction and towards goals that you are indeed in agreement with...and going to remain in agreement with.
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