Adventists, Ellen G. White, failed prophecies and scripture

[dkontner]

Matthew 22:36-40
​

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[WiselyWoven]

If I may, I thought the discussion was whether the 10 commandments were done away with rather than where they are written by God?

The word of God calls the 10 commandments "the ministration of death" and "the ministration of condemnation" and "the letter [that] killeth" and "that which is done away":

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. (2 Cor. 3:5-11)

 

[Gideon300]

That does not call for interpretation. It means exactly what it says.

OK, Lord Jesus told anyone who lusted after a woman to poke out their eyes. I've yet to meet a believer who has obeyed that commandment.

 

[Gideon300]

Does Jesus say "commandments" or "ten commandments"?

Are Gentiles in the New Testament ever told that they are under the law?

The opposite.

 

[JustThinking]

OK, Lord Jesus told anyone who lusted after a woman to poke out their eyes. I've yet to meet a believer who has obeyed that commandment.

What do you think it means when Jesus says “to obey His Commandments?”

 

[Inquisitor]

What do you think it means when Jesus says “to obey His Commandments?”

The answer is written in the scripture.

1 John 3:22-24
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in
His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He
commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in
us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It cannot be any easier than this.

This is the reason why no one says ten commandments because we are not under the law.

 

[WiselyWoven]

What do you think it means when Jesus says “to obey His Commandments?”

Notice how the word "Commandments" has been capitalized, as if to elevate "commandments" to something more than what is actually being stated - a first step into a cesspool of misunderstanding...

 

[Gideon300]

What do you think it means when Jesus says “to obey His Commandments?”

I like what His mother had to say: whatever He says to do, do it. Lord Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Everyone who is born again has the indwelling Holy Spirit. We need to walk in the Spirit, which means listening to and obeying the leading of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit never contradicts God's written word. That is our safety net, so to speak.

I received an instruction from the Lord this morning. He also gave me a scripture to back it up. I did not find that instruction in any of the law.

 

[Rob7]

If Israel has been rejected and modern Israel is not God's chosen nation, then how do you explain the
following verse?

Romans 11:1
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!

Romans 11:1 does not mean that the Jewish nation remains God’s chosen people as a nation after rejecting Christ.

Rather, Paul is saying that God has not rejected every individual Jew, because any Jew who accepts Christ is still part of God’s true ( chosen) people.

Romans 11:1, KJV “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

In other words:

God has not cast away His people in the sense that no Jew can be saved.

Paul gives himself as proof. He was a literal Israelite, of the tribe of Benjamin, yet he believed in Christ. So if God had rejected all Jews completely, Paul himself could not be saved.

But this does not mean the Jewish nation remains God’s covenant people apart from Christ.

##1. Not All Physical Israel Is True Israel Romans11:1 must be read with Romans 9:6:

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”Romans 9:6, KJV Paul makes a distinction between physical Israel and true spiritual Israel.

A person may be descended from Abraham physically, but that alone does not make him part of God’s true covenant people.

Paul continues:

“Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children...”Romans 9:7, KJV So Roman11:1 does not teach that the Jewish nation continues as God’s chosen people regardless of Christ. It teaches that God has preserved a faithful remnant among the Jews.

##2. The Remnant Is Made Up of Believing Jews Romans 11:5 explains the point:

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”Romans 11:5, KJVPaul does not say the whole Jewish nation remains God’s chosen people. He says there is a remnant.

That remnant is made up of Jews who accept Christ by grace through faith.

This agrees with Romans 9:27:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.”Romans 9:27, KJVSo the Bible position is:

God did not cast away believing Jews. But the Jewish nation as a nation lost its special covenant position when it rejected Christ.

##3. Christ Is Now the Test John says:

“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”John 1:11, KJV This refers especially to the Jewish people who rejected Christ.

But the next verse says:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”John 1 :12, KJV Notice the shift. God’s people are no longer defined by national birth, but by receiving Christ.

Jesus also said:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”Matthew 21:43, KJV This does not mean no Jew can be saved. It means the Jewish nation no longer holds covenant privilege apart from Christ.

##4. True Israel Is Spiritual Israel Paul wrote:

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly...”Romans 2:28, KJV Then he explains:

“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit...”Romans 2:29, KJV So in the Christian dispensation, the true Jew is not merely someone with Jewish blood. The true Jew is one whose heart is converted to God.

Paul also wrote:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”Galatians 3:29, KJV This is decisive.

Who are Abraham’s seed now?

“If ye be Christ’s.”

Not merely if they are nationally Jewish. Not merely if they are physically descended from Abraham. But if they belong to Christ.

​

 

[Rob7]

##5. Romans 11 Does Not Contradict Galatians 3 Some use Romans11 to argue that literal Israel is still God’s chosen people as a nation.

But Paul cannot contradict himself.

The same Paul who wrote Romans 11 also wrote:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”Galatians 3:28, KJV And then:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”Galatians 3:29, KJV Therefore Romans 11 must mean that Jews can still be saved if they accept Christ, not that the Jewish nation remains God’s chosen covenant people while rejecting Christ.

##6. The Olive Tree Shows the Same Truth In Romans11, Paul uses the symbol of an olive tree.

Some branches were broken off:

“Because of unbelief they were broken off...”Romans 11:20, KJV Why were they broken off?

“Because of unbelief.”

That means unbelieving Jews were removed from the covenant people of God.

Then Gentiles were grafted in:

“And thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them...”Romans 11:17, KJV Gentiles who believe in Christ become part of the true people of God.

But Jews can also be grafted back in:

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in...”Romansc11:23, KJV Notice the condition:

“If they abide not still in unbelief.”

So Jews are not restored because of race, but through faith in Christ.

##7. “All Israel Shall Be Saved” ... We the Remnant Church, "Spiritual Israel" ... Rev. 14:12

Romans 11:26 says:

“And so all Israel shall be saved...”Romans 11:26, KJV This does not mean every literal Jew will be saved. Paul has already said:

“They are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”Romans 9:6, KJV So “all Israel” means all true Israel: the complete people of God, made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles in Christ.

##8. Revelation 14:12 Identifies God’s End-Time PeopleRevelation says:

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”Revelation 14:12, KJV God’s final people are not identified by Jewish nationality.

They are identified by:

Patience of the saints

The commandments of God

The faith of Jesus

Revelation12:17 says the same thing:

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”Revelation 12:17, KJV So the remnant is defined by loyalty to Christ, obedience to God’s commandments, and the testimony of Jesus, not by race or nationality.

SO ! ... Short Answer Romans 11:1 does not teach that the Jewish nation remains God’s chosen people apart from Christ.​

Paul is saying that God has not rejected individual Jews who believe in Christ. Paul himself was proof of that.

But the Bible teaches that true Israel is now made up of all who accept Christ.

“If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”Galatians 3:29, KJV And God’s end-time people are described as:

“They that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”Revelation 14:12, KJV So Romans 11:1 means:

God has not cast away believing Jews. But the Jewish nation, as a covenant nation, ceased to be God’s special people when it rejected Christ. God’s true people are now all who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Those who are in Christ & Christ IN US ... Gal 2:20

†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††​

 

[JustThinking]

The answer is written in the scripture.

1 John 3:22-24
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in
His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He
commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in
us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It cannot be any easier than this.

This is the reason why no one says ten commandments because we are not under the law.

Honestly, I do not understand why people do not accept the words that come out of the mouth of Jesus Himself but look for other verses to try and show that His words do not mean what HE SAYS! Everyone is entitled to believe what they want!

I agree that 1 John 3:22–24 is very clear — but it does not prove what you are claiming.

John does say:

“This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another.”​

But notice the passage does not begin by saying there is only one commandment. It says:

“because we keep His commandments”​

​

“The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him”​

So John uses the plural first: commandments. Then he gives the central summary of Christian obedience: faith in Christ and love for one another. That is very similar to Jesus saying the whole law hangs on loving God and loving neighbor. That does not mean “do not murder,” “do not commit adultery,” “do not steal,” or “do not covet” disappear. It means true obedience is now centered in Christ and expressed through love.


Also, “not under the law” does not mean “not obligated to obey God’s moral commandments.” Paul himself says:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31​

And again:

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet… is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Romans 13:9​

Paul does not say love replaces those commandments. He says love fulfills them.

So John says we are to believe in Christ and love one another. But that is not an argument against the Ten Commandments. It is the spiritual foundation by which God’s commandments are now kept in Christ — not as a means of earning salvation, and not under the old covenant condemnation, but as the fruit of abiding in Him.

If “love one another” means we may now ignore God’s commandments, then love has been emptied of its biblical meaning. John himself says:

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” 1 John 5:2–3​

So the issue is not whether we are saved by law. We are not. The issue is whether faith in Christ produces obedience to God. John’s answer is clearly yes.

 

[Gideon300]

Honestly, I do not understand why people do not accept the words that come out of the mouth of Jesus Himself but look for other verses to try and show that His words do not mean what HE SAYS! Everyone is entitled to believe what they want!

I agree that 1 John 3:22–24 is very clear — but it does not prove what you are claiming.

John does say:

“This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another.”​

But notice the passage does not begin by saying there is only one commandment. It says:

“because we keep His commandments”​

​

“The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him”​

So John uses the plural first: commandments. Then he gives the central summary of Christian obedience: faith in Christ and love for one another. That is very similar to Jesus saying the whole law hangs on loving God and loving neighbor. That does not mean “do not murder,” “do not commit adultery,” “do not steal,” or “do not covet” disappear. It means true obedience is now centered in Christ and expressed through love.


Also, “not under the law” does not mean “not obligated to obey God’s moral commandments.” Paul himself says:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31​

And again:

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet… is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Romans 13:9​

Paul does not say love replaces those commandments. He says love fulfills them.

So John says we are to believe in Christ and love one another. But that is not an argument against the Ten Commandments. It is the spiritual foundation by which God’s commandments are now kept in Christ — not as a means of earning salvation, and not under the old covenant condemnation, but as the fruit of abiding in Him.

If “love one another” means we may now ignore God’s commandments, then love has been emptied of its biblical meaning. John himself says:

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” 1 John 5:2–3​

So the issue is not whether we are saved by law. We are not. The issue is whether faith in Christ produces obedience to God. John’s answer is clearly yes.

Obedience to God is not measured by conformity to the Law. Lord Jesus demonstrated that with the woman caught in adultery. According to the law, she should have been stoned to death. Lord Jesus showed mercy and grace. There is no mercy and no grace in the Law.​

 

[Mem]

God is not in the temple. He is not in the Ark of the Covenant, and no one can put God in a box.
But God determined to dwell in temples not made with hands.

 

[JustThinking]

Obedience to God is not measured by conformity to the Law. Lord Jesus demonstrated that with the woman caught in adultery. According to the law, she should have been stoned to death. Lord Jesus showed mercy and grace. There is no mercy and no grace in the Law.​

Does any of what you mentioned change the statemenst / verses that I posted?

 

[Gideon300]

Does any of what you mentioned change the statemenst / verses that I posted?

Did Jesus obey God when He released the adulterer? According to the Law, He did not.

 

[Thaddeus]

Honestly, I do not understand why people do not accept the words that come out of the mouth of Jesus Himself but look for other verses to try and show that His words do not mean what HE SAYS! Everyone is entitled to believe what they want!

I agree that 1 John 3:22–24 is very clear — but it does not prove what you are claiming.

John does say:

“This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another.”​

But notice the passage does not begin by saying there is only one commandment. It says:

“because we keep His commandments”​

​

“The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him”​

So John uses the plural first: commandments. Then he gives the central summary of Christian obedience: faith in Christ and love for one another. That is very similar to Jesus saying the whole law hangs on loving God and loving neighbor. That does not mean “do not murder,” “do not commit adultery,” “do not steal,” or “do not covet” disappear. It means true obedience is now centered in Christ and expressed through love.


Also, “not under the law” does not mean “not obligated to obey God’s moral commandments.” Paul himself says:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31​

And again:

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet… is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Romans 13:9​

Paul does not say love replaces those commandments. He says love fulfills them.

So John says we are to believe in Christ and love one another. But that is not an argument against the Ten Commandments. It is the spiritual foundation by which God’s commandments are now kept in Christ — not as a means of earning salvation, and not under the old covenant condemnation, but as the fruit of abiding in Him.

If “love one another” means we may now ignore God’s commandments, then love has been emptied of its biblical meaning. John himself says:

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” 1 John 5:2–3​

So the issue is not whether we are saved by law. We are not. The issue is whether faith in Christ produces obedience to God. John’s answer is clearly yes.

When Doug Bachelor of the SDA was asked what is different about the new covenant to the old one, he replied:
''The law is now in the hearts and minds of believers''
Sin is the transgression of the law
Through the law we become conscious of sin
Im sure you believe that

You must know in your mind what has been placed in your mind, the law in your heart must bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you wilfully transgress it, nothing else is possible under core sda belief.
Therefore, if a law has been placed in believers hearts and minds to follow a saturday sabbath, they would have to have heartfelt conviction of sin if they did not follow it. If they did not, they could not be saved, for the law would not be within them. Yet sda for example accept as christians people who have no heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set saturday sabbath

 

[JustThinking]

Did Jesus obey God when He released the adulterer? According to the Law, He did not.

I guess you wil not answer the question or address the verses mentioned. No problem. But here is my response to your comment:

Yes — Jesus obeyed God perfectly. The problem is not that Jesus violated the Law; the problem is that the accusers were misusing the Law. The passage is John 8:3–11, the woman caught in adultery. The Law did require death for adultery:

Leviticus 20:10

“The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife… the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.”

Deuteronomy 22:22

“If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die…”

But notice the problem immediately: They brought the woman, but not the man.If she was “caught in the very act,” where was the man? The Law required judgment against both. Their case was already corrupt.

Also, under the Law, execution required proper witnesses:

Deuteronomy 17:6–7

“Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses… The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death…”

That is why Jesus said:

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

Jesus was not saying, “Only sinless people can ever judge a legal case.” If that were the meaning, no court could ever function. He was exposing the witnesses. Under the Law, the witnesses had to be truthful, lawful, and not acting in hypocrisy or conspiracy. Jesus placed the burden back on them: if you are lawful witnesses, step forward and begin the execution as Moses commanded.

But they all left. Once the accusers and witnesses left, there was no lawful case remaining. Jesus said:

“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

That was not Jesus saying adultery does not matter. He called it sin: “Go and sin no more. Nor was Jesus saying the Law was wrong. He exposed that the accusers were not applying the Law righteously. They were using her as a trap to accuse Him.

Jesus did not violate the Law. He refused to participate in an unlawful, hypocritical, one-sided prosecution. The Law required both guilty parties, proper witnesses, and righteous judgment. When the witnesses disappeared, there was no lawful execution to carry out. Jesus showed mercy, but He also upheld holiness by telling her to sin no more.

 

[Thaddeus]

I guess you wil not answer the question or address the verses mentioned. No problem. But here is my response to your comment:

Yes — Jesus obeyed God perfectly. The problem is not that Jesus violated the Law; the problem is that the accusers were misusing the Law. The passage is John 8:3–11, the woman caught in adultery. The Law did require death for adultery:

Leviticus 20:10

“The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife… the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.”

Deuteronomy 22:22

“If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die…”

But notice the problem immediately: They brought the woman, but not the man.If she was “caught in the very act,” where was the man? The Law required judgment against both. Their case was already corrupt.

Also, under the Law, execution required proper witnesses:

Deuteronomy 17:6–7

“Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses… The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death…”

That is why Jesus said:

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

Jesus was not saying, “Only sinless people can ever judge a legal case.” If that were the meaning, no court could ever function. He was exposing the witnesses. Under the Law, the witnesses had to be truthful, lawful, and not acting in hypocrisy or conspiracy. Jesus placed the burden back on them: if you are lawful witnesses, step forward and begin the execution as Moses commanded.

But they all left. Once the accusers and witnesses left, there was no lawful case remaining. Jesus said:

“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

That was not Jesus saying adultery does not matter. He called it sin: “Go and sin no more. Nor was Jesus saying the Law was wrong. He exposed that the accusers were not applying the Law righteously. They were using her as a trap to accuse Him.

Jesus did not violate the Law. He refused to participate in an unlawful, hypocritical, one-sided prosecution. The Law required both guilty parties, proper witnesses, and righteous judgment. When the witnesses disappeared, there was no lawful execution to carry out. Jesus showed mercy, but He also upheld holiness by telling her to sin no more.

Or possibly Jesus invoked something he referred to as one of the higher points of the law-mercy
As David was forgiven for committing adultery, murder, coveting where Bathsheeba was concerned

 

[JustThinking]

When Doug Bachelor of the SDA was asked what is different about the new covenant to the old one, he replied:
''The law is now in the hearts and minds of believers''
Sin is the transgression of the law
Through the law we become conscious of sin
Im sure you believe that

You must know in your mind what has been placed in your mind, the law in your heart must bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you wilfully transgress it, nothing else is possible under core sda belief.
Therefore, if a law has been placed in believers hearts and minds to follow a saturday sabbath, they would have to have heartfelt conviction of sin if they did not follow it. If they did not, they could not be saved, for the law would not be within them. Yet sda for example accept as christians people who have no heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set saturday sabbath

I am not an SDA member but I do understand the actual verses that came out of the mouth of Jesus. They are not ambiquous, or difficult to understand. But apparently, many have and continue to find verses that they want to interpret something different than what Jesus actually said. This is mind boggling to me. He left us with no confusion on what He desired, what He commanded and what was important TO HIM. That is ALL THAT MATTERS.

You really do not need to argue with me about this - my opinion does not matter. But you must look at what Jesus actualy has told us. If you were standing in front of Jesus, what would your response be to Him after He pointed these verses out to you?


John 14:15

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

John 14:21

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.”

John 15:10

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

John 14:23

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him…”

John 15:14

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

 

[JustThinking]

Or possibly Jesus invoked something he referred to as one of the higher points of the law-mercy
As David was forgiven for committing adultery, murder, coveting where Bathsheeba was concerned

I would ask that you might reread my response.... I believe it talked about mercy without failing to discuss the sin in the scene. There is enough in the scene and in my response for you to consider ... there is nothing that your comment added to the discussion.....