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bonnie2
Guest
Wow, pretty much a Nazi philosophy. The state of society is more important than the state of the individual??
Well, they certainly have a point. If you're gonna abort babies, why would it not be acceptable to abort them after birth? But both are pure evil. Murder, plain and simple.
Well, they certainly have a point. If you're gonna abort babies, why would it not be acceptable to abort them after birth? But both are pure evil. Murder, plain and simple.
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bonnie2
Guest
Ethicists Argue for Acceptance of After-Birth Abortions | TheBlaze.com
(the link I was reading)
People with Down's are some of the sweetest people I know. God made them that way for a reason and it should be their family's/ society's privilege to care for them. This makes me so sad!!
(the link I was reading)
People with Down's are some of the sweetest people I know. God made them that way for a reason and it should be their family's/ society's privilege to care for them. This makes me so sad!!
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bonnie2
Guest
How do they know an infant does not value his/ her existence? I certainly don't remember when I was an infant. Since when did you jump into the mind of an infant anyway Mr. Giubilini or Minerva hm?
If a Down syndrome baby doesn't value his or her existence, probably no baby does. Why not kill all babies?
If a Down syndrome baby doesn't value his or her existence, probably no baby does. Why not kill all babies?
It is murder. Babies are citizens just like anyone else. These two wackos should be punished in any decent society. I know it will not happen in the USA but I wish it was a crime to even suggest killing born children. All abortion should be a crime.
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bonnie2
Guest
The suggestion would never be considered a crime b/c of freedom of speech but I certainly agree that abortion should be considered a crime! Before birth, after birth.. it's all the same.
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PostWar
Guest
Ew that sounds awful.
Abortion is one of the devils most effective ways to destroy lives.
Two souls in one body but only one soul has the ability to make decision & act upon them. This means that if the host can be convinced that this second being should never be born, 1 soul is deleted from Creation and the other stands in Limbo, her soul stands between Heaven and Hell. I know because I went to Hell during an abortion.
The devil is a deceiver. The devils biggest lie is that he doesn't exist. The devil doesn't jump out from behind the bushes, make u wet ur pants & sign over your soul to him in blood. He doesn't because it's much more fulfilling for him to set us up to fall on our own. It is a way of mocking God, of saying "Look, all I had to do to your creation was whisper my ownit boughts or ask someone else to. See how easily your creation falls, they are no better than me."
The devil would have us believe that God or evil doesn't exist; that there are grey areas for every situation, that every day is a new and "modern" day and that Word of his Book is old and has no power now. He blinds our eyes from the Gods reality on Earth, from knowledge and revelation. He confuses us and steers us to find our answers from man instead of God.
The Lord has spoken to us and has revealed to us in his Word that he knew us each before we were placed in our mothers wombs. He knew our thoughts and our names before our conception. God says he has a great plan for each of our lives, not a simple or tame or sorrowful plan but A GREAT PLAN for each of us. He offers us gifts o revelation, wisdom, prophecy, miracles, protection etc.
He has so much respect, consideration and love for us that he gave us the Free Will of choice. You can choose to do everything your way, God says, you can do things your way OR you can surrender to our Awesome Father and allow him to bless you with the life he want you to have, a life of light, of miracles, of resurrection!!! A life eternally in the splendor of existence!! Your life is either Pro - Choice or Pro - Life, that's your God given freedom.
When a woman is convinced she should have an abortion, a serious intervention is needed. Don't you know it is not only an unborn baby you are destroying? When a woman has an abortion, she takes part of her own life; she silences her soul and the voice of the Father. She silences her own biology and nature which was given to her by God.
God created us with a conscience. We know from a very young age, the difference between right and wrong. We spend all our lives openly judging others and we know in our souls the difference between what is dark and the light.
The devil says it is easy to take this life, that it can be done in a safe place by professionals, that you'll be fine & back to normal in six weeks. They try to tell you that if you have emotion issues afterwards it's called "Post Abortion Syndrome."
It's no syndrome, it's common sense, it's the human conscience. Not one of you should naturally be able to take a humans life and walk away without flinching. A person can deny it for decades but eventually they will find themselves in a place where all they have is their conscience and in that time none of those Pro Choicer's are going to be there to cheer you on, the Devil is not going to return in your time of need and say "it's ok you did what you thought was best."
No, the Devil will come and whisper into your ear: "Murderer, what kind of woman kills her own child?" The Devil loves guilt and shame. A person who feels guilty or ashamed is far less likely to ask for help. And the Devil will say "God will never forgive you now." Can you see where I'm going with this?? Abortion is a huge evil trap and it affects women in a far crueler way than people realize.
I've seen so many Pro Life groups gather who were so incredibly self righteous and critical of women who have had abortions which only causes more psychological damage to the mothers who are victims of abortion. We should be encouraging these women to come forward with their testimonies against abortion instead of taking a condemning stance.
This business about Post Birth Abortion is way stupid. Did I wake up in Nazi Germany this morning or what?
Abortion is one of the devils most effective ways to destroy lives.
Two souls in one body but only one soul has the ability to make decision & act upon them. This means that if the host can be convinced that this second being should never be born, 1 soul is deleted from Creation and the other stands in Limbo, her soul stands between Heaven and Hell. I know because I went to Hell during an abortion.
The devil is a deceiver. The devils biggest lie is that he doesn't exist. The devil doesn't jump out from behind the bushes, make u wet ur pants & sign over your soul to him in blood. He doesn't because it's much more fulfilling for him to set us up to fall on our own. It is a way of mocking God, of saying "Look, all I had to do to your creation was whisper my ownit boughts or ask someone else to. See how easily your creation falls, they are no better than me."
The devil would have us believe that God or evil doesn't exist; that there are grey areas for every situation, that every day is a new and "modern" day and that Word of his Book is old and has no power now. He blinds our eyes from the Gods reality on Earth, from knowledge and revelation. He confuses us and steers us to find our answers from man instead of God.
The Lord has spoken to us and has revealed to us in his Word that he knew us each before we were placed in our mothers wombs. He knew our thoughts and our names before our conception. God says he has a great plan for each of our lives, not a simple or tame or sorrowful plan but A GREAT PLAN for each of us. He offers us gifts o revelation, wisdom, prophecy, miracles, protection etc.
He has so much respect, consideration and love for us that he gave us the Free Will of choice. You can choose to do everything your way, God says, you can do things your way OR you can surrender to our Awesome Father and allow him to bless you with the life he want you to have, a life of light, of miracles, of resurrection!!! A life eternally in the splendor of existence!! Your life is either Pro - Choice or Pro - Life, that's your God given freedom.
When a woman is convinced she should have an abortion, a serious intervention is needed. Don't you know it is not only an unborn baby you are destroying? When a woman has an abortion, she takes part of her own life; she silences her soul and the voice of the Father. She silences her own biology and nature which was given to her by God.
God created us with a conscience. We know from a very young age, the difference between right and wrong. We spend all our lives openly judging others and we know in our souls the difference between what is dark and the light.
The devil says it is easy to take this life, that it can be done in a safe place by professionals, that you'll be fine & back to normal in six weeks. They try to tell you that if you have emotion issues afterwards it's called "Post Abortion Syndrome."
It's no syndrome, it's common sense, it's the human conscience. Not one of you should naturally be able to take a humans life and walk away without flinching. A person can deny it for decades but eventually they will find themselves in a place where all they have is their conscience and in that time none of those Pro Choicer's are going to be there to cheer you on, the Devil is not going to return in your time of need and say "it's ok you did what you thought was best."
No, the Devil will come and whisper into your ear: "Murderer, what kind of woman kills her own child?" The Devil loves guilt and shame. A person who feels guilty or ashamed is far less likely to ask for help. And the Devil will say "God will never forgive you now." Can you see where I'm going with this?? Abortion is a huge evil trap and it affects women in a far crueler way than people realize.
I've seen so many Pro Life groups gather who were so incredibly self righteous and critical of women who have had abortions which only causes more psychological damage to the mothers who are victims of abortion. We should be encouraging these women to come forward with their testimonies against abortion instead of taking a condemning stance.
This business about Post Birth Abortion is way stupid. Did I wake up in Nazi Germany this morning or what?
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bonnie2
Guest
I almost said "did you mean to use that word?" Concise Oxford Dictionary: "a luxurious self-indulgence". But then I saw "In social context, the word 'decadent' is often used to describe corrosive decline due to an erosion of moral, ethical, and sexual traditions" so you just added to my vocabulary
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PostWar
Guest
I am writing a book now about a Near Death Experience I had during an Abortion in 2010.
Now that I have given my soul to God, I see the inncocence in what was once only an ocean of grief, Confusion, rejection and shame.
Something that caused me spiritual confusion and physical & emotional damage for years became something that I was forgiven for not only when I asked forgiveness but when Jesus made his ultimate sacrifice. It has taken me this long to forgive myself and to find a peace with that soul who would have been my child.
I no longer feel ashamed to admit where I've been or what I've done. God took an awful situation I created and he showed me how I could use this experience to change minds, save lives and convert souls.
We must remember that Jesus did not come here only to walk with those who were righteous and good, Jesus came to save the sinners and to ensure our forgiveness.
I died. I went to Hell and then back into my body. The 2 women in the room knew I was dead. If I had stayed dead, nothing would have happened to that surgeon or that clinic & everyone would say "That's what she deserved."
If we want to stop Abortion in the United States, we must encourage women who have actually experienced just how bad this "simple procedure" really is.
Women who have abortions are required to sign paperwork stating that she gives up any right to sue the clinic or surgeon for any damages or death.
Women all over the U.S. are being led to believe that abortion is ok. They go to these clinics and they are being mistreated and killed and they aren't allowed to say or do anything about it. Those are the women we critize when we talk about abortion but they may be the only people in the entire country who can truly influence that change before we become one of those nations who are so desensitized that we allow Partial Birth Abortions or post delivery murder.
We must remember that just because the law says its ok does not mean God says it is.
Now that I have given my soul to God, I see the inncocence in what was once only an ocean of grief, Confusion, rejection and shame.
Something that caused me spiritual confusion and physical & emotional damage for years became something that I was forgiven for not only when I asked forgiveness but when Jesus made his ultimate sacrifice. It has taken me this long to forgive myself and to find a peace with that soul who would have been my child.
I no longer feel ashamed to admit where I've been or what I've done. God took an awful situation I created and he showed me how I could use this experience to change minds, save lives and convert souls.
We must remember that Jesus did not come here only to walk with those who were righteous and good, Jesus came to save the sinners and to ensure our forgiveness.
I died. I went to Hell and then back into my body. The 2 women in the room knew I was dead. If I had stayed dead, nothing would have happened to that surgeon or that clinic & everyone would say "That's what she deserved."
If we want to stop Abortion in the United States, we must encourage women who have actually experienced just how bad this "simple procedure" really is.
Women who have abortions are required to sign paperwork stating that she gives up any right to sue the clinic or surgeon for any damages or death.
Women all over the U.S. are being led to believe that abortion is ok. They go to these clinics and they are being mistreated and killed and they aren't allowed to say or do anything about it. Those are the women we critize when we talk about abortion but they may be the only people in the entire country who can truly influence that change before we become one of those nations who are so desensitized that we allow Partial Birth Abortions or post delivery murder.
We must remember that just because the law says its ok does not mean God says it is.
W
wwjd_kilden
Guest
uhh...Australian ethicists? Should I then say that American ethics are being for death penalty because some states have it?
(yes that was a rethorical question) They try their best to get that to be allowed here too, I hope they (the ones in power) realize how crazy it is
(yes that was a rethorical question) They try their best to get that to be allowed here too, I hope they (the ones in power) realize how crazy it is
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violakat
Guest
Postwar, you are probably one of the bravest women I'll meet on this site. It's women like you that cause me to fight against abortion in the way that I do. You, whose voice is so much stronger then you realize. I've never been put in a position to even have to consider an abortion, but I know you must have gone through so much pain. Over the last few years, I've had opportunities to try and help a few women who have abortions. All of them felt guilt. None of them, at the time, realized that God would forgive them and heal their hearts if they would only go to Him. Postwar, remember, every time Satan tries to attack you, that God has already forgiven you and that your are His precious child. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
And to everyone else, what Postwar has said, about the judgmental comments, she is right. They don't do any one good. The only true way to combat abortion is through prayer and then educating. Prayer comes first, because we need to keep our thoughts in line with God. We need to hear His voice whenever we talk with a young woman who is considering abortion or has just gone through one. Education, because we need to know the facts. And not just the facts that either side puts out. We, as Christians, need to arm ourselves, with what the Word of God says, we need to look at research that has been done since the mid to late 70's on the after effects of abortion. We also need to educate ourselves on what Single mothers go through and how we can better help them. Then we need to act in love.
And to everyone else, what Postwar has said, about the judgmental comments, she is right. They don't do any one good. The only true way to combat abortion is through prayer and then educating. Prayer comes first, because we need to keep our thoughts in line with God. We need to hear His voice whenever we talk with a young woman who is considering abortion or has just gone through one. Education, because we need to know the facts. And not just the facts that either side puts out. We, as Christians, need to arm ourselves, with what the Word of God says, we need to look at research that has been done since the mid to late 70's on the after effects of abortion. We also need to educate ourselves on what Single mothers go through and how we can better help them. Then we need to act in love.
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psychomom
Guest
Here are some chilling insights into this premise from Michael Farris, chairman of HSLDA and Chancellor of Patrick Henry College:
"
Of course they do not limit their argument for “post-birth abortion” to cases where the child has some serious physical defect—although they clearly champion such cases as a key reason for justifiable execution of infants. Nor do they solely rely on the argument that the child’s life would “not be worth living”—as if any human being could adequately assess such a standard.
They point out that such considerations place far too great a reliance on the interests of the child who is being killed. Let’s not think about the baby being killed—we have to think about the parents and family who are being asked to raise this child. It is their interests that should be paramount.
The newborn child is a “non-person” in the lexicon of these professors. Only those who have reached a level of development that renders them “capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.” In other words, since the child doesn’t understand their own existence and worth, they can be killed before they are capable of such self-aware thoughts.
Having labeled them as non-persons, the argument proceeds to the ultimate conclusion that it is the interest of “persons” that should prevail."
And note how "society" could come in to play--
On the other hand, not only aims but also well-developed plans are concepts that certainly apply to those people (parents, siblings, society) who could be negatively or positively affected by the birth of that child. Therefore, the rights and interests of the actual people involved should represent the prevailing consideration in a decision about abortion and after-birth abortion.
“You are messing up my plans.”
“You are incapable of sophisticated thought. Therefore, I can kill you.”
“My life and not yours is ‘the prevailing consideration.’” "
If we follow that to its logical end, society itself should be considered in deciding whether or not a child's life should continue...
"We think your family already has too many children."
"We just cannot afford to add to the government's health care rolls at this time. So although you (the child) could live a normal life after an expensive heart operation, it isn't possible to pay for that now."
"Although our nation happens to have negative population increase, there's overpopulation in X nation, so we must avoid adding your life to the world."
Perhaps that's overkill...but as far as knowing this will never take place here, I believe that's what my grandparents would have said about abortion itself.
I'll leave you with one final thought from Dr. Farris:
"Perhaps the most perverse argument of all is the one employed by these professors to address the issue of adoption. Women often suffer from self-doubt and regret, they argue, when they give their baby up for adoption. And true, some women have such reactions to having aborted their child. But, with an adoption there is always the nagging feeling that the decision could be reversed—giving the woman a distressing lack of closure, wondering if her child will ever return. Some women, they conclude, would rather be rid of this lingering doubt. Death is final. Adoption is not. Better to be done with “it” once and for all."
Come, Lord Jesus!
ps- Thank you, postwar, for bravely sharing your story! My sister and best friend had an abortion as a teen, not long after it had been legalized (2 years later). She almost bled to death at home afterward, and had a difficult time receiving God's forgiveness 10 and 15 years later.
For me, she puts a human face on the suffering of woman who've endured this "choice". I am for you!
"
Of course they do not limit their argument for “post-birth abortion” to cases where the child has some serious physical defect—although they clearly champion such cases as a key reason for justifiable execution of infants. Nor do they solely rely on the argument that the child’s life would “not be worth living”—as if any human being could adequately assess such a standard.
They point out that such considerations place far too great a reliance on the interests of the child who is being killed. Let’s not think about the baby being killed—we have to think about the parents and family who are being asked to raise this child. It is their interests that should be paramount.
The newborn child is a “non-person” in the lexicon of these professors. Only those who have reached a level of development that renders them “capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.” In other words, since the child doesn’t understand their own existence and worth, they can be killed before they are capable of such self-aware thoughts.
Having labeled them as non-persons, the argument proceeds to the ultimate conclusion that it is the interest of “persons” that should prevail."
And note how "society" could come in to play--
On the other hand, not only aims but also well-developed plans are concepts that certainly apply to those people (parents, siblings, society) who could be negatively or positively affected by the birth of that child. Therefore, the rights and interests of the actual people involved should represent the prevailing consideration in a decision about abortion and after-birth abortion.
“You are messing up my plans.”
“You are incapable of sophisticated thought. Therefore, I can kill you.”
“My life and not yours is ‘the prevailing consideration.’” "
If we follow that to its logical end, society itself should be considered in deciding whether or not a child's life should continue...
"We think your family already has too many children."
"We just cannot afford to add to the government's health care rolls at this time. So although you (the child) could live a normal life after an expensive heart operation, it isn't possible to pay for that now."
"Although our nation happens to have negative population increase, there's overpopulation in X nation, so we must avoid adding your life to the world."
Perhaps that's overkill...but as far as knowing this will never take place here, I believe that's what my grandparents would have said about abortion itself.
I'll leave you with one final thought from Dr. Farris:
"Perhaps the most perverse argument of all is the one employed by these professors to address the issue of adoption. Women often suffer from self-doubt and regret, they argue, when they give their baby up for adoption. And true, some women have such reactions to having aborted their child. But, with an adoption there is always the nagging feeling that the decision could be reversed—giving the woman a distressing lack of closure, wondering if her child will ever return. Some women, they conclude, would rather be rid of this lingering doubt. Death is final. Adoption is not. Better to be done with “it” once and for all."
Come, Lord Jesus!
ps- Thank you, postwar, for bravely sharing your story! My sister and best friend had an abortion as a teen, not long after it had been legalized (2 years later). She almost bled to death at home afterward, and had a difficult time receiving God's forgiveness 10 and 15 years later.
For me, she puts a human face on the suffering of woman who've endured this "choice". I am for you!
V
violakat
Guest
I've decided to label the people who came up with that rationalizaton as persona non grata. However, just because I claim they are non-people, still doesn't make it right to kill them.
It's so interesting that we will fight for the rights of almost every creature that is not human, but we have to declare babies non humans and therefore, it's right to kill them.
It's so interesting that we will fight for the rights of almost every creature that is not human, but we have to declare babies non humans and therefore, it's right to kill them.
Yes friend, the two main proponents of "after birth" abortion are Australian ethicists. I have nothing against Australians as a people. It is, without a doubt, one of my favorite countries.
As for the death penalty, that is a different issue entirely and deserves a different thread should you see fit to make one.
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wwjd_kilden
Guest
my point was, what does this have to do with those australian eticists? there are people, opinions and happenings like that many places, I just don't see the connection *confused*
(and no way am I starting on the other topic, i will just end up with half the forum being mad at me
)
(and no way am I starting on the other topic, i will just end up with half the forum being mad at me
)
My question is why not? It helps give a panoramic view of how screwed up the Western world is becoming, that and there are occasions in history in which ideas catch on in one country that don't in another.
The two leading ethicists in this movement happen to be Australian from what I have read. I see nothing wrong with identifying where they are from.
The two leading ethicists in this movement happen to be Australian from what I have read. I see nothing wrong with identifying where they are from.
T
TheGrungeDiva
Guest
Actually, according to the Bible parents have the right to kill their children up to the age of accountability. So, if you want to follow Old Testament law, this "post birth abortion" is Biblical.
Fortunately, there's this little thing called separation of Church and State here in the US, so it would be illegal to follow that one particular Old Testament Commandment. Whew!
Fortunately, there's this little thing called separation of Church and State here in the US, so it would be illegal to follow that one particular Old Testament Commandment. Whew!
J
Jullianna
Guest
The OT law allows for parents of stubborn/rebellious/gluttonous/drunkard children to request that they be judged by the elders, the penalty for which is stoning (Deut 21), but I don't see anything about an age of accountability. Seems like the gluttonous/drunkard part would require a bit of age. But then, I also don't see why Christians would be following OT law, especially with what Jesus had to say about it. Oh well, that would be a topic for another thread. *shrugs*
I think I'll pass on the church/state theory thing too, as that's a merry go round that would derail this thread and take the focus away from the dreadful topic at hand as well, and that would be incredibly rude, huh?
I think I'll pass on the church/state theory thing too, as that's a merry go round that would derail this thread and take the focus away from the dreadful topic at hand as well, and that would be incredibly rude, huh?