All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[ChristIsGod]

Eh, I forgot the other saying that - If the post-tribbers are wrong - what have they lost?
But if the pre-tribbers are banking on that, what might they lose, besides their minds?



something close to that anyway.

 

[ChristIsGod]

I mentioned that notebook of just Scripture that I compiled back when and now that we have 2 of 3 Rapture threads posted, I thought I'd move this here for anyone's consideration -- just a fragment of the notebook, with some ECFs mixed in after I got a computer in 2002 -- http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58527-when-does-rapture-occur-59.html#post1814971 page 59.

The other thread of Elin's looks interesting as well.

 

[PlainWord]

Well this is doctrine that you can be wrong about and still be saved. I expect you will miss out on a lot of blessings but you can still be saved and not know that the church of whom you is will never be subjected to the wrath of God. Israel is going through the tribulation but not the church. The church is troubled by the world but finds solace and comfort in her heavenly Father. Christ cares for the church.

Israel will one day repent and receive Christ but only after they have been through literally what will seem like hell.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Of course the above is opinion and complete conjecture based on the desires of man and not the written Word of God. Indeed, Israel will be subjected to Tribulation and neither Israel nor the Church will face the Wrath of God, however, the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan (not God), which is clearly taught, thus both will face it. The Wrath of God comes after the Tribulation and is in response to it.

God bless and keep us.

 

[PlainWord]

Eh, I forgot the other saying that - If the post-tribbers are wrong - what have they lost?
But if the pre-tribbers are banking on that, what might they lose, besides their minds?



something close to that anyway.

Their minds and heads, sadly.

 

[DiscipleDave]

It may not be a salvation issue 'yet' but if the pre-trib theory is wrong - it certainly could become so.

I believed pre-trib for my first years of salvation but kept running across verses that seemed to contradict it and then heard Tim LaHaye say that they can't prove pre-trib with just the Scriptures and heard Keith Green say, be ready for either because he couldn't say just yet or boldly what he believed - so that's what led me to go to just the Bible and a Strong's and find every verse from the O.T. to the New that had anything to do with His 2nd Coming and write all that Scripture down in a notebook and surprise-surprise to me in 1985 when I did that and kept adding more & more from the O.T. as I'd find more each time I'd read through it. Just Scripture alone can be trusted whole-heartedly.

you are not far from the Kingdom of God, because you are like the Bereans. If you hear something that you don't agree with or have questions about, you do the Scriptures for answers. Because of this, the Holy Spirit of Truth will indeed reveal more and more to you.

A poster said this is not a Salvation issue and that poster is correct. You say

"It may not be a salvation issue 'yet' but if the pre-trib theory is wrong - it certainly could become so."

You are so right. The danger in believing pre-trib or post-trib, is they will not be ready when He appears.
The pretrib camp believes that Jesus will come BEFORE the Tribulation Period, So when it does start and He did not come, there will be a great falling away from the Faith. Because so many falsely believe He appears before it all begins, which is NOT Scriptural, it is a belief that man teaches, based on what man thinks is the Truth.
The posttrib camp will not be ready because when the Tribulation period begins, they will start their 7 year alarm clock, and will not be ready when He does show up in the middle of the Tribulation period, these will be the first ones to claim, that it could not be Jesus because it has not been 7 years yet since the beginning of the Tribulation period. Every eye will know it was Jesus on the day He shows up, but the very next day, they will think something else other than what is True.
Again many people will fall away from the Faith, because they though that Jesus would come before the tribulation period, and because He did not come when they thought He should have, they will be the ones who believe the man on TV saying "Where is your God now?" When the world is being bombarded by ACTS of God. And not just the Christian Faith will fall away, but all faiths in the World will fall away when the Wrath of God comes upon all the disobedient children of God.
So then it is the Falling away, that makes it a Salvation issue. NOT NOW, but then when the hour of temptation comes upon them.

^i^

 

[GaryA]

It may not be a salvation issue 'yet' but if the pre-trib theory is wrong - it certainly could become so.

I believed pre-trib for my first years of salvation but kept running across verses that seemed to contradict it and then heard Tim LaHaye say that they can't prove pre-trib with just the Scriptures and heard Keith Green say, be ready for either because he couldn't say just yet or boldly what he believed - so that's what led me to go to just the Bible and a Strong's and find every verse from the O.T. to the New that had anything to do with His 2nd Coming and write all that Scripture down in a notebook and surprise-surprise to me in 1985 when I did that and kept adding more & more from the O.T. as I'd find more each time I'd read through it. Just Scripture alone can be trusted whole-heartedly.

During my childhood, I was taught the pre-trib view. During my early adulthood, I began to do my own Bible study on the End Times Scenario. I discovered that I had been taught much error. The 'charts' pointed to by the three links at the bottom of my signature collectively represent my End Times Scenario studies to this day... Amen.

 

[ChristIsGod]

During my childhood, I was taught the pre-trib view. During my early adulthood, I began to do my own Bible study on the End Times Scenario. I discovered that I had been taught much error. The 'charts' pointed to by the three links at the bottom of my signature collectively represent my End Times Scenario studies to this day... Amen.

Very Neat Charts, Brother! Good work! Makes me smile, actually. I had posted on another thread that the only way to see if the Seals, Trumpets and Vials over-lap is to write out what happens on three separate pieces of paper -- the Seals on one, the Trumpets on the 2nd and the Vials on the 3rd and see if any line up perfectly --- they don't but I sure as life wouldn't know how to make Charts like you have. Very Neat! All three took a lot of work! I won't ask how you did that because I know I couldn't begin to learn, even if we turned the clock back 10 yrs.

Thank you for sharing that - makes a Great Signature! Praise The LORD!!!

 

[ChristIsGod]

The danger in believing pre-trib or post-trib, is they will not be ready when He appears.
The pretrib camp believes that Jesus will come BEFORE the Tribulation Period, So when it does start and He did not come, there will be a great falling away from the Faith. Because so many falsely believe He appears before it all begins, which is NOT Scriptural, it is a belief that man teaches, based on what man thinks is the Truth.
The posttrib camp will not be ready because when the Tribulation period begins, they will start their 7 year alarm clock, and will not be ready when He does show up in the middle of the Tribulation period, these will be the first ones to claim, that it could not be Jesus because it has not been 7 years yet since the beginning of the Tribulation period. Every eye will know it was Jesus on the day He shows up, but the very next day, they will think something else other than what is True.
Again many people will fall away from the Faith, because they though that Jesus would come before the tribulation period, and because He did not come when they thought He should have, they will be the ones who believe the man on TV saying "Where is your God now?" When the world is being bombarded by ACTS of God. And not just the Christian Faith will fall away, but all faiths in the World will fall away when the Wrath of God comes upon all the disobedient children of God.
So then it is the Falling away, that makes it a Salvation issue. NOT NOW, but then when the hour of temptation comes upon them.

^i^

Very well said. I wouldn't push anything unless I feared for my Family. I don't push anything unless I feel that there's a danger in it. The deception will be so subtle and with the technology that they have right now - that most don't know about - they can do just about anything to the minds, through eyes & ears --- remarkable technology lined up for the greatest deception imaginable. TV just for one thing can control subliminally as well as certain frequencies and 'silent sound' technology and holograms -- it's just unimaginable - but the world doesn't even know that they're being bombarded even now and being cooked like the frog in the water that starts out cool.

Bless you, Brother Dave. You know that 'heresy' means 'the opinion chosen' -- we can still pray though - there's still time.

Thank you!!

 

[PlainWord]

From this verse:

4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

We can conclude that "grass, trees and green things" are not used to describe non-believers. Can we therefore conclude that these terms are used to describe those who have the Seal of God or those who believe? Maybe. We know that the earth, sea and trees are not to be harmed until the 144,000 have been sealed from this:

3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

The "Trees" and "Green things" could represent Believers or the ELECT. Notice that the above angels are allowed to harm the trees but not until the Servants of God are sealed. In the above the only "green thing" mentioned are trees. No grass mentioned here.

What are the first things harmed by the first trumpet which happens AFTER the ELECT are sealed? The Trees and Grass. Not just any grass, but Green Grass.

7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

So, right off the bat, all the green grass is burned and 1/3 of the trees. If the trees are the ELECT (144K) then maybe the grass are normal Christians who are not of the 144K. I don't want to speculate, just saying its possible. This happens on the "earth." The earth is where Satan comes from:

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

Where is this? This is Turkey. Turkey is where Satan's throne is. Turkey is also where all 7 of the churches are. John wrote letters to all 7 churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) warning them about the coming Great Tribulation. The Man of Sin AKA AntiChrist who is Satan come in the form of a Man (just like Christ came) will originate from Turkey. This is why two chapters of Revelation are dedicated to these churches within Turkey.

 

[Kerry]

Post trib makes no sense, I would rather go with a mid trib but that makes no sense. So go buy you a double cheese burger and an extra large fry and twisted frosty and diet coke.

So we go up and immediately return to fight with Christ. Secondly you can pin point the day and hour with a post trib. Jesus said I come as a thief in the night. totally different than the second coming.

 

[AtonedFor]

During my childhood, I was taught the pre-trib view. During my early adulthood, I began to do my own Bible study on the End Times Scenario. I discovered that I had been taught much error. The 'charts' pointed to by the three links at the bottom of my signature collectively represent my End Times Scenario studies to this day...

Thou mightest consider re-doing this chart Olivet Discourse
to include Luke 12 and especially Luke 17.

 

[PlainWord]

Post trib makes no sense, I would rather go with a mid trib but that makes no sense. So go buy you a double cheese burger and an extra large fry and twisted frosty and diet coke.

So we go up and immediately return to fight with Christ. Secondly you can pin point the day and hour with a post trib. Jesus said I come as a thief in the night. totally different than the second coming.

Where are you getting this idea that anyone (alive) is going up to heaven, pre, mid or post???? There is no passage that discusses any living person being transformed and taken to heaven. We are all to die once except for those still alive on the last day of earth.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment...

When is judgment?? On the Last Day!! If there was a trip to heaven for the living, it would conflict with the above and there are no conflicts in the BIBLE. If you read 1 Thes 4:14 you see that this is the return of GOD the FATHER. This is also when the resurrection happens on this same last day.

As for the thief in the night reference, Christ comes as a thief AFTER the Tribulation, not before it. He tells us this in Mat 24 and in Rev 16:

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

The WRATH of GOD comes AFTER Satan's Great Tribulation and the wrath is in response to Satan's slaughtering of Christians. The Tribulation is Satan's wrath and the wrath of God comes after it. Paul teaches us this in 2 Thes 1 and John teaches it in Rev 16.

Please let the Word teach you. Don't try to force the Word to fit your beliefs and desires. I know it's hard to do, but try it.

 

[DiscipleDave]

The WRATH of GOD comes AFTER Satan's Great Tribulation and the wrath is in response to Satan's slaughtering of Christians. The Tribulation is Satan's wrath and the wrath of God comes after it. Paul teaches us this in 2 Thes 1 and John teaches it in Rev 16.

Please let the Word teach you. Don't try to force the Word to fit your beliefs and desires. I know it's hard to do, but try it.

You say Don't try to force the Word to fit your belief and desire. i 100% agree with that statement. My question though is, Aren't you doing exactly that when you teach about "Satan's Great Tribulation"? Nowhere in all of Scriptures does it talk about, refer too, or even imply that there is a period of Satan's Great Tribulation. Now we know that satan is angry from the time he was cast out, even until now. Rev 12:12 satans wrath started when Adam was in the Garden and he set out to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. But you teach a period of time called "Satan's Great Tribulation" Which the Word of God does not teach that, so are you not forcing the Word to fit your belief of this "Satan's Great Tribulation"
satans wrath started when he was kicked out of Heaven, there is nothing in Scriptures which teach there will be a time during his wrath that would be considered Great. Now there is a time of the antichrist, and a time of the Beast, and a time of the mark of the Beast. Which all takes place because God allows it too, during His 7 year Tribulation period.

^i^

 

[GaryA]

..., during His 7 year Tribulation period.

This is not in the Bible. The scriptures do not indicate the exact length of the Tribulation period.

 

[ChristIsGod]

I too believe that the tribulation - the 7 seals and the 7 trumpet period is the period of time when men will be used by Satan to "destroy the earth" and if the LORD doesn't come when He does - no flesh would survive.

Even Sec of Defense Cohen said that back in the 90's that the world has the power to kill by, bacterial agents, chemical warfare, weather and earthquake technology... I could find that for you if you'd like ... it's on a . gov site.

I guess I stated that I believe we're resurrected at the 7th/last Trump and that the Vials are "the wrath of God" as it says 3 times in chpts 15 & 16.

And here is what happens because it isn't God that's destroying the earth and it's inhabitants - after this 7th trump is blown and we meet Him in the air -- then comes the Wrath of God upon those that are doing the destroying ...

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


adding: the grammar of the second word "destroy" would read, "which are destroying" the earth.

 

[popeye]

Well, the foolish virgins didn't gather enough oil because they didn't know the darkness would last THAT long - as they certainly wouldn't need lamps and extra oil if the Bridegroom was very near - because of the "brightness of His appearing" but they were given a heads-up to start getting toward the direction of the call and while still heading out -- the 5 foolish that thought they had enough ran out, as they hadn't thought they'd need THAT much of walking in His Spirit [oil] = being led/guidance.

Good post-trib Scripture reference.

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path and Thy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that guides us into all truth and even shows us things to come."

The Word [the lamp] and The Spirit [oil].

There was no "brightness of his coming"
You twisted the parable as ALL postribs do ...and must....which is my point.

 

[ChristIsGod]

There was no "brightness of his coming"
You twisted the parable as ALL postribs do ...and must....which is my point.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



He's Only 'Coming' Once!

 

[popeye]

What has this parable to do with the timing of His actual return. The entire purpose Jesus told this parable it to teach us to be prepared because we do not KNOW when He will return. Hello!
If anything the parable teaches the Truth, the Gathering is midtribulation.
Consider the virgins who upon hearing He is coming, immediately go get ready and buys the oil. (pretrib) Those virgins which thought He would not come in the night, did not feel they needed to prepare (posttrib). Now think about it. The virgins who went and got oil, though He would come Early, But when He did not come early as they expected, they went on to bed, thinking maybe He will come tomorrow and went to sleep and not stay up waiting for Him to come. When did He actually come. in the middle of the night. AFTER the virgins with oil gave up and went to bed, and before the virgins thought He would come, they thought they had time to prepare. The other virgin who thought He may come at any time, was immediately ready, and also prepared just in case HE came in the middle of the night.
There are verses which contradict pretrib belief
There are verses which contradict posttrib belief.
There are NO verses which contradict a midtrib belief. Scriptures teach we will go through some of the Tribulations but not all of it. That is the Truth. those who believe otherwise do not know the Truth at all concerning that topic.

^i^

What has this parable to do with the timing of His actual return. The entire purpose Jesus told this parable it to teach us to be prepared because we do not KNOW when He will return. Hello!

Mat 25 ".........likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."
..so your opening statement is false.No mid or postrib is expecting Jesus,so they obviously would not "go out to meet" anyone that was not there.

If anything the parable teaches the Truth, the Gathering is midtribulation.

There is zero in the parable about ANY tribulation.

Consider the virgins who upon hearing He is coming, immediately go get ready and buys the oil.

Absolutely wrong. They were not ready,and were told by the wise to go buy.They were in fact foolish and were left behind

There are NO verses which contradict a midtrib belief

This is why you should study the bride/groom dimension.(10 virgin parable)
The Ac kills all the ones refusing the mark. ALL DIE. Every last human on the planet refusing the mark dies.
Midtrib is impossible.

 

[popeye]

Well, the foolish virgins didn't gather enough oil because they didn't know the darkness would last THAT long - as they certainly wouldn't need lamps and extra oil if the Bridegroom was very near - because of the "brightness of His appearing" but they were given a heads-up to start getting toward the direction of the call and while still heading out -- the 5 foolish that thought they had enough ran out, as they hadn't thought they'd need THAT much of walking in His Spirit [oil] = being led/guidance.

Good post-trib Scripture reference.

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path and Thy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that guides us into all truth and even shows us things to come."

The Word [the lamp] and The Spirit [oil].

Good post-trib Scripture reference.

Uh,you place the "going out to meet him" at a time when there are no christians on the planet left alive.
You also ADD the gt into the parable.
There is no tribulation in the parable.

I thought you guys always said "if we are wrong,no big deal"? Well,according to your theory you have 50% of the christian population raptured ,and 50% left behind at the end of the GT. This would mean that the unprepared made it to the end of the gt?

Postrib is now chasing it's tail.

 

[popeye]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



He's Only 'Coming' Once!

I guess I have to inform you there is no "brightness of his coming" in the parable.
It simply is not there.
But yes,when he comes with his saints,that is where you will see that dimension.