All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[PlainWord]

So Moses who is the law could not cross the jordan. But Joshua who bears Jesus name led the people across the Jordan into the promised land is that not a symbol of rapture?

Was Joshua snatched up, transformed into a spiritual being, without going through death, and taken to heaven to avoid his enemies in the Promised Land?

Moses was not allowed into the promise land because he disobeyed God by smacking the rock twice. It had nothing to do with the law, it had everything to do with obedience.

 

[GaryA]

Let me guess, AD 70??

No - 490 years after the command went forth to rebuild the city. The 70th week ended ( I calculate ) in 34 A.D. At this point in time ( the end of the 70 weeks ), the "times of the Jews" ended and the "times of the Gentiles" began.

Please cite where the scriptures specifically state there won't be a third temple. There is a Temple mentioned in Ezek 40-48 which has different dimensions from the 1st and 2nd temple. There are also animal sacrifices discussed there. These chapters only make sense if there is an earthly millennial reign of Christ prior to the final eternal state.

Daniel 9:

[SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The red-highlighted phrase above - in the context of the passage - tells me that God will not allow the temple to be built again before Christ returns.

EDIT: I believe that 'he' is referring to Christ and 'it' is referring to the temple.

 

[PlainWord]

No - 490 years after the command went forth to rebuild the city. The 70th week ended ( I calculate ) in 34 A.D. At this point in time ( the end of the 70 weeks ), the "times of the Jews" ended and the "times of the Gentiles" began.



Daniel 9:

[SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The red-highlighted phrase above - in the context of the passage - tells me that God will not allow the temple to be built again before Christ returns.

EDIT: I believe that 'he' is referring to Christ and 'it' is referring to the temple.

I can totally agree that the temple probably is not built again until Christ returns. We do not have any passage that specifically tells us that the Man of Sin is standing in the 3rd temple in Jerusalem. This idea is pure conjecture. We have passages that tell us the King of the North enters the "Glorious Land." We have passages that tell us the Man of Sin "sits as God, in the Temple of God" but which temple? But are they the same character? We have passages that tell us the Abomination of Desolation stands in the Holy Place, but which holy place and what or who is this AoD? Are all three of these the same entity? We don't know.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Please let me rephrase my statement. Yes it does. If you want to see the thousands of websites that shows all the Scriptures that teach it does, google "7 year Tribulation Period" Or just ignore and don't do anything and continue to believe as you do.

Now will you google it, to see the hundreds of websites that shows the Scriptures that shows it is a 7 year Tribulation Period? or as i said above, are you going to merely ignore and not do any research on it, to continue to believe as you do?

^i^

I was raised with the "7-year tribulation period" teaching. Later, through serious personal study of the scriptures, I discovered that it was not biblical.

What Scriptures teach that it is NOT a 7 year period? There is no Scriptures that says it is NOT a seven year period, therefore it is your interpretation that tells you it is not a 7 year Tribulation Period. Is it not written interpretations belong to God. If then they belong to God, they do NOT belong to men. Is it not written that prophesies are not for private interpretations? God reveals to whom God reveals.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

There is no satan's wrath.
satan's wrath started the moment he was kicked out of Heaven and confined to the vicinity of the Earth. During the 7 year Tribulation Period God allows the antichrist powers.
The reign of the antichrist coincides with the wrath of God that is coming upon the Earth.
What people are teaching about the wrath of satan is PART of the 7 year tribulation period of the wrath of God. People do not understand that, so they teach there is a 3 1/2 year wrath of satan and a 3 1/2 year wrath of God. They do not understand the Truth, that what they call the wrath of satan is a PART of the 7 year Tribulation period. For during the entire 3 1/2 years of what they call the wrath of satan is when all 7 trumpets are blown during that 3 1/2 years of the Mark and the Beast. They are separating (falsely) the two. It is All the wrath of God. There is a seven year Tribulation period, and the reign of the antichrist is during the first 3 1/2 years of that Tribulation period, Then Christ Returns (Mid-trib at the last Trumpet) After that point, the Church is taken, and the vials are poured out to wipe mankind off the planet (save the 144,000 that are protected by Angels (sealed) during that Tribulations), the vials take 3 1/2 years. At the end of that 3 1/2 years, all the wicked shall be destroyed, and only the 144,000 children remain, virgins, and do not know what sin is. They will repopulate the Earth for a thousand years, these are they that the saints reign over with Christ and the New Earth. New Earth because for the previous 7 years it was being destroyed by fire, remade, redesigned, with a New atmosphere as well, one that allow those children to live for a thousand years. they will see their great great great great great great grand children, they will lay down with lions. There is a 7 year Tribulation Period the first 3 1/2 years of it, the trumpets are blown and the antichrist reigns with the Beast. The last 3 1/2 years AFTER the Trumpets and the reign of the antichrist is when the vials are poured out to destroy all mankind off the earth preparing the Earth for the 144,000 that makes it through the Tribulation period, they are virgins and do not know what sin is, they are children that are born during the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period during the time the vials are being poured out. After Christ gets here and takes the Church, children born after that point on the Earth are the firstfruits of the New Kingdom on Earth, these are the 144,000 that will repopulate the Earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
Now i have told you what God has told me. If then you disagree, which MANY will, but there might be a FEW who do not. but if you disagree, then show me any (ANY) Scriptures which teaches contrary to what i have just told you that He told me. How is it, nobody will be able to do that, because it is the Truth, Howbeit though they will disagree not based on what Scriptures teach, but based on what they think (THINK) is the Truth, their opinions, their beliefs, their interpretation, (interpretations belong to God, NOT to men) i have told you the Truth, i know it is the Truth, because i know to whom it is that told me these things.

^i^

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes there is no such thing as 3 1/2 years of the wrath of satan followed by a 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath.

What happens is a 7 year period of time that starts with the signing of a peace treaty, that the antichrist breaks after 3 1/2 years. Those following final 3 1/2 years the antichrist seeks out to, and kill Gods elect. This then enrages God, and at the end of those final 3 1/2 years God pours out His wrath on the antichrist, false propher, and all that followed them.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes there is no such thing as 3 1/2 years of the wrath of satan followed by a 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath.

What happens is a 7 year period of time that starts with the signing of a peace treaty, that the antichrist breaks after 3 1/2 years. Those following final 3 1/2 years the antichrist seeks out to, and kill Gods elect. This then enrages God, and at the end of those final 3 1/2 years God pours out His wrath on the antichrist, false propher, and all that followed them.

Could you post the scripture that says a 7 year peace treaty will be signed by the Antichrist?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Could you post the scripture that says a 7 year peace treaty will be signed by the Antichrist?

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


A prophetic week in scripture is 7 years, and here we see he signs a covenant (treaty) for a 7 year time period.
This has yet to be fulfilled, and it also says he breaks it in the middle. This is not talking about the Lord Jesus Christ as His earthly ministry only lasted 3 1/2 years, and then after His crucifxion the sacrifices were not done away with. For they did not stop tell 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed, and the Lord's crucifixion was in 33 A.D. Which make the end of sacrifices happening 37 years later.
This shows a rebuilt temple, as the Jews state they will return to animal sacrifices when the temple is rebuilt. Then the antichrist when he makes the 7 year covenant will break it after 3 1/2 years. This is when the A.O.D. will happen and he puts an end to the scarifices......Then all the Jews living in Judea are told to flea...

 

[PlainWord]

Yes there is no such thing as 3 1/2 years of the wrath of satan followed by a 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath.

What happens is a 7 year period of time that starts with the signing of a peace treaty, that the antichrist breaks after 3 1/2 years. Those following final 3 1/2 years the antichrist seeks out to, and kill Gods elect. This then enrages God, and at the end of those final 3 1/2 years God pours out His wrath on the antichrist, false propher, and all that followed them.

Please point out for me in the below passage where the Wrath of God takes place.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

I see Satanic deception and the Elect being persecuted but no wrath of God. The Wrath of God comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER Satan's tribulation. The result of Satan's Tribulation is the massive slaughter of Saints as John tells us:


[SUP]9 [/SUP]After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.

Do you really think GOD killed all those saints and had to stop His Tribulation or none of the Elect would remain alive? Christ comes and stops Satan's Tribulation or no Elect would be left alive. Radical Islam is Satan's tool whereby he will slaughter untold millions and Satan is just getting started.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


A prophetic week in scripture is 7 years, and here we see he signs a covenant (treaty) for a 7 year time period.
This has yet to be fulfilled, and it also says he breaks it in the middle. This is not talking about the Lord Jesus Christ as His earthly ministry only lasted 3 1/2 years, and then after His crucifxion the sacrifices were not done away with. For they did not stop tell 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed, and the Lord's crucifixion was in 33 A.D. Which make the end of sacrifices happening 37 years later.
This shows a rebuilt temple, as the Jews state they will return to animal sacrifices when the temple is rebuilt. Then the antichrist when he makes the 7 year covenant will break it after 3 1/2 years. This is when the A.O.D. will happen and he puts an end to the scarifices......Then all the Jews living in Judea are told to flea...

You are not far from the Kingdom of God, All that you have said above is True.
The antichrist will cause that a peace agreement is made between Israel and the Muslims, This will allow the Jews to rebuild their temple and start animal sacrifices again. The seven year peace agreement lines up with the seven year Tribulation Period, they start roughly around the same time. The Jews to this day is looking for the Messiah to come, the antichrist will fit the bill, and they will think that the antichrist is the Son of God, causing world peace, and performing miracles, and stopping the world wide disaster that happens to the Earth, the world will see him as a hero, who saved the planet Earth from extinction. The Jews will call him the Son of God. he does not care for any of that hogwash, he does not believe in any god. and will cause all faiths to fall away from their thinking a God exists. He will however deem himself to be a God/King/Ruler over all humans. The antichrist will also defile the temple of God that the Jews built by entering into the Holy of Holies proclaiming himself to be a god. When he does that, the Jews will realize their mistake and realize that he is NOT the Son of God because he defiles the Temple of God, This is when sacrifices ceases from the Jews, when they realize their error and because he desecrates the Temple. This is also when the 7th Trumpet is sounded and Christ returns to the Earth with the Saints that He has gathered from the face of the Earth to live in the New City Jerusalem that will land over the old Jerusalem, using mountains as it legs to rest on. The antichrist at this time will convince the World that a UFO (mothership) has landed on the Earth, and he will gather all nations to battle against the New City Jerusalem. This will be the first battle with New City Jerusalem (humans against the New City) the second battle will be at the end of the thousand years (devil, demons, wicked humans against the New City)
the stuff that is about to happen will blow your minds. But here is my hope, it is not likely any of you will believe me now, when it would be prudent to do so, but you will believe it when you see it happening before your very eyes. When you see a man that the World loves on TV, after ACTS of God has devastated the Earth (Astroids hitting planet, earthquakes, hurricanes, tidal waves and the such) the antichrist will say "Where is your God now?" and a great falling away will happen because of his words. And not only the Christian Faith, but all faiths of the world will turn from their God because of the destruction that is before their eyes, destruction that God said would come, but they do not repent, that is to say, they do not realize it is because of their sinning that the destruction came in the first place (reap what you sow) the antichrist will talk about the human race coming together, to put religions behind them, all of them, he will teach there is no God, he will teach if there was a god none of this destruction would be happening killing billions of people, children included, he will teach to come together as a human people with no religion, no race, no denomination, no differences. To believe in the human race and survive this destruction. Many will fall away from their faiths, i say many. But my hope is for you who is reading this right now, even though you do not believe me now, when you see all these things come to pass, you will remember that i said these things would come to pass, and then you will believe. Well that is my hope and prayers for you anyway. Love you all

^i^

 

[Apostol2013]

Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first!
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world
until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”

Rapture vs Resurrection • The main difficulty here is our understanding of the resurrection!
John 5:28-29 “… for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear
His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Luke 14:14 “… you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
Acts 24:15 “… there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”
• The archangel Michael instructs Daniel about the tribulation and the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2 “… many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
• The passages above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections:
• a resurrection of the good and just … and a resurrection of the evil and unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”
• The U/L verses above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years (the millenium).
• The first resurrection is that of believers … 1000 years later, the others are resurrected.

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead believers is at the LAST trumpet.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
• The verses above describe the resurrection of ALL dead believers! And also, those who are
alive on earth will be changed to the same incorruptible state as the resurrected believers.
• The pre-trib doctrine teaches that believers living in the last generation will be
changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the rapture (before the tribulation),
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
Because … there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.
But, pre-trib falsely teaches 2 resurrections for believers.
Also, pre-trib falsely teaches that raptured saints are the “firstfruits”, however Jesus is!
1 Cor 15:23 “But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
• Also, “the dead in Christ” refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
How could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
ALL dead believers will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
“we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24 above!
Pre-trib’s excuse for “His elect” is that it is some group of Jewish believers! This is absurd, e.g.
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel” and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- Writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Last Day
John 6:39-54 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees
the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
• Jesus has clearly stated that the dead believers will be raised up on the last day!
How can the rapture doctrine have “the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thes 4:16), followed by a rapture
… if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day? … How many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• Pre-trib says they meet the Lord in the air (along with the living believers) before the tribulation.
All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of
the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
Pre-trib has unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Days of Noah
Matthew 24:37-41 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken
and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:26-37 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man
… Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them,
“Wherever the body is, there the eagles (or vultures) will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28 “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
• The disciples asked, “Where were they taken, Lord?”
His response was like, “Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather.”
Those who are taken are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.
Immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall.
And “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”!
Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.
Another sign this event is one of judgment: both eagle and vulture are abominations (Lev 11:13).
The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.
“Watch therefore, for you do NOT KNOW what hour your Lord is coming … Therefore you
also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT EXPECT.” (Matt 24:42-44).
• Yes, the believers do NOT KNOW that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough.
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster.
True believers (who refuse to take the mark) do NOT KNOW they won’t be able to buy anything!

Coming upon you as a thief • This is a negative event, not a positive one!
Revelation 3:2-3 “Be watchful … for I have not found your works perfect before God.
… hold fast and repent … if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will NOT KNOW what hour I will come upon you.”
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!”, then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
• However, Paul says true believers WILL KNOW when the thief comes!
This group are “sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thes 5:5).
As for the other group, Paul says sudden destruction will come upon those
who are of the night and darkness, who are those who say,“Peace and safety!”
All of the 15 NT verses which refer to Christ’s coming as a thief
… refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
Matthew 24:43 “But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour
the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.”
John 10:10 “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.”
2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
1 Thes 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night … then sudden destruction comes upon them”
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one!
1 Thes 5:4 “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”
• The above clearly says believers will be on the earth when “the Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for that Day because they have been watching and anticipating.
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches,
and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
• In this verse (and Revelation 3 above), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least
6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle
of Armaggedon, Christ says: “I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord • The wrath of God - at Jesus’ second coming - at the end of the tribulation!
Both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night”
2 Peter 3:10 “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
One example is … Isaiah 13:6-9 “Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction
from the Almighty. … Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it.”
• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord … at the very end of the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens will be shaken ... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
• However, some believe that the Day of the Lord actually begins at the supposed pre-tribulation rapture!

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
• There is no way this verse can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

But, Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth!

you made this a little long but I am for this but the word elect is all believers not just Jews because in Christ house both Jews and gentiles are heirs to the same promise they are both Israel therefore there is no Jew or gentile but all are Israel because of Christ

 

[popeye]

What Scriptures teach that it is NOT a 7 year period? There is no Scriptures that says it is NOT a seven year period, therefore it is your interpretation that tells you it is not a 7 year Tribulation Period. Is it not written interpretations belong to God. If then they belong to God, they do NOT belong to men. Is it not written that prophesies are not for private interpretations? God reveals to whom God reveals.^i^

Good post "what is not there" adherants need a dose now and then

 

[PlainWord]

you made this a little long but I am for this but the word elect is all believers not just Jews because in Christ house both Jews and gentiles are heirs to the same promise they are both Israel therefore there is no Jew or gentile but all are Israel because of Christ

The ELECT (as mentioned in Mat 24) are the 144,000 and they are Jewish. You don't have to be part of this group of ELECT to be saved. I know this because they are in Israel being persecuted by the Man of Sin (King of the North) who comes down to Saudi Arabia to destroy MECCA and passes through the Holy Land. These have the seal of God in the minds and cannot be deceived by Satan.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Please point out for me in the below passage where the Wrath of God takes place.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

I see Satanic deception and the Elect being persecuted but no wrath of God. The Wrath of God comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER Satan's tribulation. The result of Satan's Tribulation is the massive slaughter of Saints as John tells us:


[SUP]9 [/SUP]After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.

Do you really think GOD killed all those saints and had to stop His Tribulation or none of the Elect would remain alive? Christ comes and stops Satan's Tribulation or no Elect would be left alive. Radical Islam is Satan's tool whereby he will slaughter untold millions and Satan is just getting started.

So what is your point ?
I said above that God's wrath gets poured out in the bowl judgments at the end of the GT. But this does not mean the first 3 1/2 years are satans and the final 3 1/2 years is God's wrath. No scripture even points to that, as the whole 7 year period deals with the rise of in the first 3 1/2 years, and the persecutions done by the antichrist in the final 3 1/2 years. That God then ends by pouring out His bowl judgments. Gods bowl judgments are not the final 3 1/2 years of the GT, they follow it.

 

[PlainWord]

So what is your point ?
I said above that God's wrath gets poured out in the bowl judgments at the end of the GT. But this does not mean the first 3 1/2 years are satans and the final 3 1/2 years is God's wrath. No scripture even points to that, as the whole 7 year period deals with the rise of in the first 3 1/2 years, and the persecutions done by the antichrist in the final 3 1/2 years. That God then ends by pouring out His bowl judgments. Gods bowl judgments are not the final 3 1/2 years of the GT, they follow it.

You stated previously...

Yes there is no such thing as 3 1/2 years of the wrath of satan followed by a 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath.

I agree that there is no such thing as a period of 3.5 years of God's Wrath. That's true, nothing tells us God's wrath lasts 3.5 years. There is, however, a period of Satan's wrath. Just how long it lasts is unclear but it definitely happens during the Tribulation. The definition of Tribulation as used in the Bible is "persecution of God's people at the hands of her enemies." The below verse specifically tells us that there will be a period of Satan's wrath. It does not tell us specifically when it starts and ends. But we do have clues and other scripture.

Rev 12: [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Clearly we have Satan's Wrath. We see in the earlier verses of CH-12 that the Woman is Israel and that Satan stood ready to devour Christ when He was born. This was fulfilled by King Herod.

And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

This is Christ ascending back to heaven after rising from the dead. This next part is conjecture on my part but it fits.

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

When did the "Woman" flee into the wilderness following Christ's ascension? Most would say around 70 AD. But that was a physical "fleeing" and not all Jews fled. When was the spiritual fleeing? When was another religion established on the Temple Mount, in place of where the Temple once sat and more importantly, when did this new religion replace the religion that was practiced there? How about ISLAM and the DOME of the Rock in 688? Days are often used to describe years in prophesy.

688 + 1,260 = 1,948

Is this a mere coincidence?

Where did Israel go spiritually? To the surrounding nations, i.e. the "wilderness" or "mountains."

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Would the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque be considered an "Abomination standing in the holy place?" The math works.

We then see a war break out in heaven and Michael fighting with Satan.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

Did Satan persecute Israel after they became in nation in 1948? Israel has been under fire from day 1 and it has not stopped yet. The next part of this passage describes Satan's lies against Israel and that Israel will be protected from those lies for a "time, times and half a time." How long is that? Unable to physically or spiritually destroy Israel and her testimony to God, Satan turns his attention to her "offspring."

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is Israel's spiritual offspring who keeps the commandments of God and testimony of Christ? My answer would be the CHURCH. Is the Church under persecution today? I would say YES - like never before and on a global scale (worse than Rome) but not as bad as it's going to get.

 

[Hepsibah]

Revelation 20- 4,5 says

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

From the above verses we understand that only the martyrs beheaded by the beast were raised up. The rest of the dead were not raised up till the thousand years were finished.

This shows that
1. No other dead was raised with this group of martyrs.
2. No other dead was raised after they were raised (i.e. Before the millennium)


So this leads us to two conclusions

1. The believers who had died in Christ, martyrs of former generations and the apostles of The Lord will not partake of the millennial reign

OR

2. The believers,martyrs and apostles who died in Christ were raised before those martyred by the beast was raised.



We know that the believers, martyrs and apostles who died in Christ will partake in the millennial reign.


So we can conclude that the First Resurrection (i.e. The resurrection before the millennium ) happens in phases.


Phase 1:

1 Thess 4:16,17 - For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air And thus we shall always be with The Lord. (This includes the dead in Christ and those living believers prepared for the Lords coming)


Phase 2:

1Corinthians 15:51,52 -Behold I tell you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (This includes those martyred by the beast and those believers who managed to survive during the tribulation)


Thus we can understand that there is a rapture prior to the open coming of The Lord.

 

[popeye]

Revelation 20- 4,5 says

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

From the above verses we understand that only the martyrs beheaded by the beast were raised up. The rest of the dead were not raised up till the thousand years were finished.

This shows that
1. No other dead was raised with this group of martyrs.
2. No other dead was raised after they were raised (i.e. Before the millennium)


So this leads us to two conclusions

1. The believers who had died in Christ, martyrs of former generations and the apostles of The Lord will not partake of the millennial reign

OR

2. The believers,martyrs and apostles who died in Christ were raised before those martyred by the beast was raised.



We know that the believers, martyrs and apostles who died in Christ will partake in the millennial reign.


So we can conclude that the First Resurrection (i.e. The resurrection before the millennium ) happens in phases.


Phase 1:

1 Thess 4:16,17 - For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air And thus we shall always be with The Lord. (This includes the dead in Christ and those living believers prepared for the Lords coming)


Phase 2:

1Corinthians 15:51,52 -Behold I tell you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (This includes those martyred by the beast and those believers who managed to survive during the tribulation)


Thus we can understand that there is a rapture prior to the open coming of The Lord.

Not only that,but there are resurections in the gt ,the 2 withesses were both rised and raptured.

Jesus is the first fruits and THE FIRST RESURRECTION ("I am the resurrection"),so any attempt to make rev 20 define the 1st res. as ONLY those beheaded by AC are grossly mistaken.

 

[PlainWord]

Not only that,but there are resurections in the gt ,the 2 withesses were both rised and raptured.

Jesus is the first fruits and THE FIRST RESURRECTION ("I am the resurrection"),so any attempt to make rev 20 define the 1st res. as ONLY those beheaded by AC are grossly mistaken.

The two witnesses are not two individual people. This whole passage is a metaphor for Israel and the Church. How do I know this? You have to compare passages.

Rev 11:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Does fire proceed out of the mouth literally of a person?

So, the two witnesses are the two olive trees and two lampstands who stand before the God of the earth. Do we have a definition for a lampstand?

Rev 1:

The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

So a lampstand is a church. What about an olive tree?

Zech 4:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the hands of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”


From Zechariah we see that the two witnesses are the "TWO ANOINTED ONES" who stand beside the Lord. The two passages are perfect matches!!

two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth

So who are the anointed ones? I will shorten the below to highlight the key words.

Psalm 105:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]O seed of Abraham His servant,
You children of Jacob, His chosen ones! [SUP]8 [/SUP]He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,[SUP]
13 [/SUP]When they went from one nation to another,
From one kingdom to another people,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]He permitted no one to do them wrong;
Yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones,
And do My prophets no harm.”



What further description do we have for the two witnesses?

Rev 11:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

What does David say in Psm 105 again?

[SUP]14 [/SUP]He permitted no one to do them wrong;
Yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones,And do My prophets no harm.”

Has any nation been able to harm Israel since she became a state again? Has she not "devoured" anyone who has tried?

What happens to nations who tried to harm Israel over the years?

...and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

What happened in Egypt? David recounts in Psm 105:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]He sent Moses His servant,
And Aaron whom He had chosen.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]They performed His signs among them,
And wonders in the land of Ham.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He sent darkness, and made it dark;
And they did not rebel against His word.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]He turned their waters into blood,
And killed their fish...



What two groups are we told Satan through his Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist) goes after during the Great Tribulation?

The WOMAN - ISRAEL
Her Offspring - The Church (or possibly the United States)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Lastly, what is the symbol of Israel?

 

[MarcR]

Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first!
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world
until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”

Rapture vs Resurrection • The main difficulty here is our understanding of the resurrection!
John 5:28-29 “… for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear
His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Luke 14:14 “… you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
Acts 24:15 “… there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”
• The archangel Michael instructs Daniel about the tribulation and the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2 “… many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
• The passages above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections:
• a resurrection of the good and just … and a resurrection of the evil and unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”
• The U/L verses above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years (the millenium).
• The first resurrection is that of believers … 1000 years later, the others are resurrected.

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead believers is at the LAST trumpet.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
• The verses above describe the resurrection of ALL dead believers! And also, those who are
alive on earth will be changed to the same incorruptible state as the resurrected believers.
• The pre-trib doctrine teaches that believers living in the last generation will be
changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the rapture (before the tribulation),
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
Because … there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.
But, pre-trib falsely teaches 2 resurrections for believers.
Also, pre-trib falsely teaches that raptured saints are the “firstfruits”, however Jesus is!
1 Cor 15:23 “But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
• Also, “the dead in Christ” refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
How could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
ALL dead believers will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
“we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24 above!
Pre-trib’s excuse for “His elect” is that it is some group of Jewish believers! This is absurd, e.g.
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel” and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- Writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Last Day
John 6:39-54 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees
the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
• Jesus has clearly stated that the dead believers will be raised up on the last day!
How can the rapture doctrine have “the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thes 4:16), followed by a rapture
… if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day? … How many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• Pre-trib says they meet the Lord in the air (along with the living believers) before the tribulation.
All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of
the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
Pre-trib has unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Days of Noah
Matthew 24:37-41 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken
and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:26-37 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man
… Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them,
“Wherever the body is, there the eagles (or vultures) will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28 “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
• The disciples asked, “Where were they taken, Lord?”
His response was like, “Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather.”
Those who are taken are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.
Immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall.
And “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”!
Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.
Another sign this event is one of judgment: both eagle and vulture are abominations (Lev 11:13).
The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.
“Watch therefore, for you do NOT KNOW what hour your Lord is coming … Therefore you
also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT EXPECT.” (Matt 24:42-44).
• Yes, the believers do NOT KNOW that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough.
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster.
True believers (who refuse to take the mark) do NOT KNOW they won’t be able to buy anything!

Coming upon you as a thief • This is a negative event, not a positive one!
Revelation 3:2-3 “Be watchful … for I have not found your works perfect before God.
… hold fast and repent … if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will NOT KNOW what hour I will come upon you.”
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!”, then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
• However, Paul says true believers WILL KNOW when the thief comes!
This group are “sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thes 5:5).
As for the other group, Paul says sudden destruction will come upon those
who are of the night and darkness, who are those who say,“Peace and safety!”
All of the 15 NT verses which refer to Christ’s coming as a thief
… refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
Matthew 24:43 “But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour
the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.”
John 10:10 “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.”
2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
1 Thes 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night … then sudden destruction comes upon them”
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one!
1 Thes 5:4 “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”
• The above clearly says believers will be on the earth when “the Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for that Day because they have been watching and anticipating.
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches,
and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
• In this verse (and Revelation 3 above), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least
6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle
of Armaggedon, Christ says: “I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord • The wrath of God - at Jesus’ second coming - at the end of the tribulation!
Both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night”
2 Peter 3:10 “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
One example is … Isaiah 13:6-9 “Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction
from the Almighty. … Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it.”
• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord … at the very end of the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens will be shaken ... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
• However, some believe that the Day of the Lord actually begins at the supposed pre-tribulation rapture!

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
• There is no way this verse can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

But, Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth!

If the issue were in fact as clear as you presume it to be, this would not be a discussion topic.

the fact that many reasonable and intelligent people disagree with each other indicates at least a lack of clarity.

I am not going to argue either position in this post. I just want to point out that your initial premise is not reasonable.

 

[MarcR]

Thanks for informing people that they need to go to heaven BEFORE they are raptured.
T'will be mucho appreciated, I'm sure!

If you look at the verse carefully, you will see, at least a possibility , that is NOT the rapture; and that a previous rapture has put the believers in heaven from whence they are gathered for the Lord's second coming. I'm still not arguing either position yet.