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GaryA
Guest
"Rough - but, I am surviving it --- I think..."
A lot sooner than a lot of people think...
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8 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
This tells me, okay now, the 7 seals are all open and we are now ready to see what is written on the scroll. So what does John see?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
John obviously sees much more than just the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. He also sees the sealing of the 144,000. He sees the Great Multitude of Christians who died during the Great Tribulation. He sees the two witnesses (Israel and the Church), he sees their death. He sees Israel as the Woman who gave birth to Christ. He sees the war in heaven where Satan is cast out. He sees the rise of the Beast from the "Sea" which is the rise of radical Islam which coincides with the 4th seal. He sees the False Prophet coming from the "earth." John sees "Babylon" which is Islam and her great city MECCA. He sees their destruction. He sees Christ standing on the Mount of Olives. He sees the "harvesting" of both righteous and wicked. He sees Christ return with His army to fight at Armageddon. He sees the final new heaven and the eternal state. John sees a lot once the seals are removed. The seals themselves merely contain headlines of everything else John sees.
This tells me, okay now, the 7 seals are all open and we are now ready to see what is written on the scroll. So what does John see?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
John obviously sees much more than just the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. He also sees the sealing of the 144,000. He sees the Great Multitude of Christians who died during the Great Tribulation. He sees the two witnesses (Israel and the Church), he sees their death. He sees Israel as the Woman who gave birth to Christ. He sees the war in heaven where Satan is cast out. He sees the rise of the Beast from the "Sea" which is the rise of radical Islam which coincides with the 4th seal. He sees the False Prophet coming from the "earth." John sees "Babylon" which is Islam and her great city MECCA. He sees their destruction. He sees Christ standing on the Mount of Olives. He sees the "harvesting" of both righteous and wicked. He sees Christ return with His army to fight at Armageddon. He sees the final new heaven and the eternal state. John sees a lot once the seals are removed. The seals themselves merely contain headlines of everything else John sees.
"Rough - but, I am surviving it --- I think..."
A lot sooner than a lot of people think...
Yeah, me too buddy. But I'm getting really nervous. My pastor is going to start on a series about Revelation starting Easter Sunday. I am cringing already.
.Hang in there. It might not get too bad here.
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popeye
Guest
So,all the world took his mark in the forehead and the righteous refused and were beheaded......all the christians were wiped out....at some time in history?This is actually past history. Revelation 13:5 is referring to the dark ages - with a "sliding" jump forward to the [ reasonably ] near future ( verse 8 ).
It is this group of people ( murdered ) who are the "souls under the alter" in the fifth seal description. They await until the conclusion of the events described in Revelation 6:11 - those who were "killed as they were" --- this group of people are those who are the "final" beheaded in the tribulation ( Revelation 20:4 )...
PlainWord:
Revelation 6:
[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
I believe these verses are describing the trumpet events. ( Please see my Order of Events chart. )
"Therefore, the 'opening' of the 6th seal comes first."
Just my thoughts...
BTW - In timing terms, Armageddon occurs between Vial 6 and Vial 7.
I used to think that too until I solved the 2nd Trumpet and 2nd Bowl (see a few posts back). The Tribulation is 100% over by the 6th Seal. IMO, the Seals merely contain the events of Revelation.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 4th seal summarizes the Great Tribulation of Islam.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a GREEN (Chloros ISLAMIC) horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
All of Revelation 13, 17 and 18 fall into the above IMO. I am debating whether or not all of Trumpets 2-6 fall into the Tribulation period or not too. I'm inclined to think so because I believe Jesus is making a reference to Armageddon below.
Mat 24:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The above is the last thing Christ says before telling us that the Tribulation is over. Then if you look at the companion passage from Luke 17 we see it confirmed.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Armageddon is a BIG BATTLE. It is the final battle of the world. 1/3 of the entire world is killed at Armageddon. Thus, it culminates with the 6th trumpet. Thus I believe all Bowls of Wrath are poured out right here at the 6th trumpet. We know that we are still in the Great Tribulation era at the first bowl because those with the Mark of the Beast are named. I agree with you 100% Armageddon comes between the 6th and 7th Bowl.
However, I disagree with you that the 6th Seal is in the past by the time the 6th Vial or Bowl is poured. How do I know you ask??? I heard you ask just now Gary
.[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Has Christ returned before the above? No, right? He says He is coming; he isn't here yet. Plus what else happens before Christ comes? The wicked are gathered AGAINST THEIR WISHES to Armageddon. Remember what Jesus says at the Olivet?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
On the Day that the Son of Man is revealed, the wicked are going to be snatched away and brought to Armageddon. Many think the below is talking about the righteous being raptured. How silly. All they have to do is read. It is the wicked being discussed above yucking it up and having a good time. They have no idea what is about to happen to them.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
The disciples are told this. They get it. But they want to know where the wicked are being taken to. Again, the Lord answers and tells them where:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
The wicked are being taken to the body where the eagles will be gathered. What body is this mentioned above? How about this one?
Ezek 28:
They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’”[SUP]
19 [/SUP]All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
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GaryA
Guest
Nope. That is future.
Read the post again. There are two (2) groups of "beheaded" - one is past, and one is future.
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GaryA
Guest
I did not say that it "is in the past" ( finished? ) --- I said that it "is opened" before the others occur...However, I disagree with you that the 6th Seal is in the past by the time the 6th Vial or Bowl is poured. How do I
know you ask??? I heard you ask just now Gary
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GaryA
Guest
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GaryA
Guest
I think you are confusing trumpet 6 with vial 6.
Nope, they are the same event. Armageddon in both cases...
I will have to disagree with all of this...
That's okay. We've disagreed before, LOL.
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GaryA
Guest
Nope, they are not.
"But, that is okay --- we agree to disagree agreeably..." ( i.e., we are 'nice' about it )
Gary,
Ask yourself, what is happening at the 6th seal?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The above tells us the wicked kings (ARAB Kings of the earth) are having an "oh crap" moment. They want to hide from the face of "Him who sits on the throne" which of course is GOD. They also want to be hidden from the Wrath of the Lamb. Is there a "Wrath of God" and a "Wrath of the Lamb" or are they the same? Does the above happen in a moment or over time?
I submit to you that the 6th seal encompasses all of the bowls and the 6th Trumpet at a minimum.
Ask yourself, what is happening at the 6th seal?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The above tells us the wicked kings (ARAB Kings of the earth) are having an "oh crap" moment. They want to hide from the face of "Him who sits on the throne" which of course is GOD. They also want to be hidden from the Wrath of the Lamb. Is there a "Wrath of God" and a "Wrath of the Lamb" or are they the same? Does the above happen in a moment or over time?
I submit to you that the 6th seal encompasses all of the bowls and the 6th Trumpet at a minimum.
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GaryA
Guest
With regard to timing:
The vials occur in order as a group after the seventh trumpet sounds.
The vials represent the Wrath of God poured out upon the earth.
The trumpet events occur in order as a group after the tribulation period ends.
The trumpet events are not part of the Wrath of God. ( by biblical grammatical definition )
The trumpet events occur after the tribulation period; they are not part of the tribulation period.
The seals occur in order over a span of time that ranges from ~2000 ago - up until - and including - vial 7.
The first five seals occur during the tribulation period. Seal six overlaps seal seven, and seal seven overlaps the trumpets and vials.
Please see my Order of Events chart. Look at the fourth row. Note that seal six describes events that start at 'Trumpet 1' and run until 'Vial 7'.
( my view )
I submit to you that the 6th seal encompasses all of the trumpets and all of the vials at a minimum.
I submit to you that the 6th seal encompasses all of the trumpets and all of the vials at a minimum.
LOL
. But that isn't possible because the 2nd Trumpet is clearly tied to the 4th Seal.We are in the 2nd Trumpet right now, albeit the early stages.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
Let me define some of the spiritual terms in use above.
The "Great Mountain" is the Northern Islamic Extremist Movement. Could be ISIS, could be Iran
The "Sea" is the Leopard, Lion, Bear region as defined in Rev 13:2, which is Iran, Iraq, Syria and possibly Lebanon and Turkey
"Ships" represent commerce and/or sea power.
"Living Creatures in the Sea" are Muslims and/or those who live in this region. They are the victims.
I believe 1/3 of the Muslims in this region will be killed by the Radical Islamists. The killing with be done with weapons, it will be and is a military operation and it is happening right now. This trumpet satisfies a portion of the 4th Seal.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a (GREEN ISLAMIC) pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Note that the first killing method is by sword which is militarily. The third method - death - I believe is chemical or biological. I think ISIS/Iran will acquire these from Syria and use them on certain groups of people, likely Christians. I think the 3rd Trumpet is showing the second part of the 4th seal.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
Let me define some of the spiritual terms in use above.
The "Great Mountain" is the Northern Islamic Extremist Movement. Could be ISIS, could be Iran
The "Sea" is the Leopard, Lion, Bear region as defined in Rev 13:2, which is Iran, Iraq, Syria and possibly Lebanon and Turkey
"Ships" represent commerce and/or sea power.
"Living Creatures in the Sea" are Muslims and/or those who live in this region. They are the victims.
I believe 1/3 of the Muslims in this region will be killed by the Radical Islamists. The killing with be done with weapons, it will be and is a military operation and it is happening right now. This trumpet satisfies a portion of the 4th Seal.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a (GREEN ISLAMIC) pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Note that the first killing method is by sword which is militarily. The third method - death - I believe is chemical or biological. I think ISIS/Iran will acquire these from Syria and use them on certain groups of people, likely Christians. I think the 3rd Trumpet is showing the second part of the 4th seal.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
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GaryA
Guest
No.LOL
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GaryA
Guest
Almost all of Revelation is about the final Beast kingdom which is radical Islam. Understanding this critical fact is key to understanding Revelation and most of future Biblical prophesy. IMO, the 3rd Seal and 4th Seal are clearly Islamic as are the 2-3rd trumpets at a minimum. Additionally all of Chapter 13, 17 and 18 deals with Islam as do the Wrath chapters of 16 and 19.
Islam is Mother Babylon. There are two main branches of Islam, Sunnis and Shiites. Shiites account for only 10-13% of the Muslim population. It remains to be seen if Shiite Iran becomes the dominant force in the north or if the Sunnis ISIS somehow wins out.
Islam is Mother Babylon. There are two main branches of Islam, Sunnis and Shiites. Shiites account for only 10-13% of the Muslim population. It remains to be seen if Shiite Iran becomes the dominant force in the north or if the Sunnis ISIS somehow wins out.