Am I being a heretic?
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I don’t think how we explain the “ trinity “ makes us a heretic when we also acknowledge it’s a hard thing to explain .
if we seperate Jesus from God the father s Holy Spirit in completeness in one the Lord Jesus Christ we’re mislead but trying to explain how they are one and that those theee aspects of Gods character and identity , have thier own role to bring us to the one God I don’t think is heresy
God only revealed part of himself in the ot , and in Christ he has revealed his complete self To us. God is God , he became one of us for a moment in time revealing himself to us so we could see and know him , and the holy soirit is the same God coming to be with us on a permanent basis
they are all three the same but he has revealed himself in theee ways to bring us back to him. God the father who could not be known by man , until he revealed himself to us in the Son , and through him has come to dwell in us by the holy spirit
one God manifest three ways at the apppinted times in order to fulfill the plan of redemption put in motion long ago by his word who spoke in the beginning and has fulfilled this plan in Christ and the receiving of his spirit
if we seperate Jesus from God the father s Holy Spirit in completeness in one the Lord Jesus Christ we’re mislead but trying to explain how they are one and that those theee aspects of Gods character and identity , have thier own role to bring us to the one God I don’t think is heresy
God only revealed part of himself in the ot , and in Christ he has revealed his complete self To us. God is God , he became one of us for a moment in time revealing himself to us so we could see and know him , and the holy soirit is the same God coming to be with us on a permanent basis
they are all three the same but he has revealed himself in theee ways to bring us back to him. God the father who could not be known by man , until he revealed himself to us in the Son , and through him has come to dwell in us by the holy spirit
one God manifest three ways at the apppinted times in order to fulfill the plan of redemption put in motion long ago by his word who spoke in the beginning and has fulfilled this plan in Christ and the receiving of his spirit
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Alright!
God is timeless. When God said that man is to be made in the image and likeness of God, He sees Christ, Who is the express image of the Father.
Hebrews 2:1-2, “..for the son is the radiance of his father’s glory and the exact representation of his father’s being.”
So, when God says, “Let Us make man in Our own image and in Our own likeness,” He sees the assembled Body of Christ, the finished work, the end from the beginning, He sees us in Christ.
Christ is the Firstborn, He’s the exact measure of who the Father is, no man can come to the Father except in the Firstborn (Romans 12). He is the Firstborn of many sons.
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew He also predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among,” (the word “among” also means “in”). His appearing in us. “He foreknew us in Christ” so, before the foundations of the world, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn. This is what God saw when He began to make man.
Now, the reason that Jesus is referred to as the “only begotten of the Father” is that is the relationship that perfectly demonstrates the love of God. Love is a relational term (as you mentioned), faith, hope and love require substance, they cannot be said to exist apart from witnessed evidence. If your goal is to display love then their must be a vehicle through which love can be shown.
How, for example, do you know that someone has faith? Show me your faith by your works. In the same way, hope and love require a visible representation.
When we speak of the trinity we speak accurately of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” but we miss something: “Holy Spirit” is both a description of and a representation of a distinct person: a person who is Spirit and a person who is holy, Holy Spirit. But do you notice that Father and Son are references to a relationship? Is God’s proper name “Father”? Is God’s proper name “Son”? No, that would be like saying husband and wife, brother and sister, are you naming them? No, you’re describing a relationship. If a man were to say to me, “I wish to present to you my son,” I do not have to know his name to know that the person presented is the son of that man. That person is just saying, "between this person and me there is a relationship of father and son.”
So, God, who is God, can choose to manifest Himself in whatever distinct form He elects so long as that form serves the purpose He’s intending to communicate. For example: before Jesus was known as the Son what was He known as? The Word, the Logos. Is it a different person? No, the Logos describes the Son in His pre-appearing state, He appears in the earth as the Son: God determined He, Himself, would appear as the Son. Why? To show mankind who the Father is.
You cannot show who a father is through a servant: a servant in the house is not competent to show who the father of the house is. A servant cannot properly value the estate; a servant works for wages, a servant performs tasks, a servant’s position is determined by the faithfulness of his fulfilling of his obligations, but a son owns the whole house.
That is why the Scriptures say, “To which of the angels did God at any time say, ‘You are My son, this day I have begotten you.’?” All angels are ministering spirits, they’re ministering servants sent to serve the saints, our servants. But to the Son He says, “Your throne O’ God,” (God calls the Son “God”) “Your throne O’ God is forever and ever and righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You’ve loved righteousness and hated wickedness that is why God, Your God has set You above Your fellows and He’s anointed You with the oil of joy.” That is why Jesus is seated far above any authority or power in this or any age.
So, when God put the Son in the world, when the very decision was made, when the time had reached its fullness, a body was prepared for the Son that He might come out of the heavens into the earth to be the exact representation of His Father. When God foresaw the end from the beginning He knew He would present Himself as Father and present Himself as Son (God can be perfectly the Father, the same God, and God can be perfectly the Son, the same God). The Son showed man how to be in relationship to the Father. By this, He is the pattern Son of the many sons who will come after Him.
One more thought: The Son is spirit, the Father is spirit, and the Holy Spirit is spirit; that is why there is no biblical description of the Father. We see the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove and the Holy Spirit is pictured in all manner of types; oil, wine and so on and the Son is pictured in all manner of things and most completely in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. But the Father? The only reference we have to anything we could associate with the Father is the voice that spoke when the dove descended out of heaven and said, “This is My beloved Son.” Why has God remained so reclusive? Why has God remained so apart, so “other”? And the answer is: He’s completely accessible by assembly to His body and by the renewing of the mind, for in Christ we also have His mind.
“Let this mind be in you which also was in Christ.”
And, because God decided to present Himself as the Son, no one can say they accept the Father while rejecting the Son. It is only through the Son that man may have access to the Father. To say otherwise, is to contend that God is something other than the Father.
Be Blessed,
Aaron56
God is timeless. When God said that man is to be made in the image and likeness of God, He sees Christ, Who is the express image of the Father.
Hebrews 2:1-2, “..for the son is the radiance of his father’s glory and the exact representation of his father’s being.”
So, when God says, “Let Us make man in Our own image and in Our own likeness,” He sees the assembled Body of Christ, the finished work, the end from the beginning, He sees us in Christ.
Christ is the Firstborn, He’s the exact measure of who the Father is, no man can come to the Father except in the Firstborn (Romans 12). He is the Firstborn of many sons.
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew He also predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among,” (the word “among” also means “in”). His appearing in us. “He foreknew us in Christ” so, before the foundations of the world, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn. This is what God saw when He began to make man.
Now, the reason that Jesus is referred to as the “only begotten of the Father” is that is the relationship that perfectly demonstrates the love of God. Love is a relational term (as you mentioned), faith, hope and love require substance, they cannot be said to exist apart from witnessed evidence. If your goal is to display love then their must be a vehicle through which love can be shown.
How, for example, do you know that someone has faith? Show me your faith by your works. In the same way, hope and love require a visible representation.
When we speak of the trinity we speak accurately of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” but we miss something: “Holy Spirit” is both a description of and a representation of a distinct person: a person who is Spirit and a person who is holy, Holy Spirit. But do you notice that Father and Son are references to a relationship? Is God’s proper name “Father”? Is God’s proper name “Son”? No, that would be like saying husband and wife, brother and sister, are you naming them? No, you’re describing a relationship. If a man were to say to me, “I wish to present to you my son,” I do not have to know his name to know that the person presented is the son of that man. That person is just saying, "between this person and me there is a relationship of father and son.”
So, God, who is God, can choose to manifest Himself in whatever distinct form He elects so long as that form serves the purpose He’s intending to communicate. For example: before Jesus was known as the Son what was He known as? The Word, the Logos. Is it a different person? No, the Logos describes the Son in His pre-appearing state, He appears in the earth as the Son: God determined He, Himself, would appear as the Son. Why? To show mankind who the Father is.
You cannot show who a father is through a servant: a servant in the house is not competent to show who the father of the house is. A servant cannot properly value the estate; a servant works for wages, a servant performs tasks, a servant’s position is determined by the faithfulness of his fulfilling of his obligations, but a son owns the whole house.
That is why the Scriptures say, “To which of the angels did God at any time say, ‘You are My son, this day I have begotten you.’?” All angels are ministering spirits, they’re ministering servants sent to serve the saints, our servants. But to the Son He says, “Your throne O’ God,” (God calls the Son “God”) “Your throne O’ God is forever and ever and righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You’ve loved righteousness and hated wickedness that is why God, Your God has set You above Your fellows and He’s anointed You with the oil of joy.” That is why Jesus is seated far above any authority or power in this or any age.
So, when God put the Son in the world, when the very decision was made, when the time had reached its fullness, a body was prepared for the Son that He might come out of the heavens into the earth to be the exact representation of His Father. When God foresaw the end from the beginning He knew He would present Himself as Father and present Himself as Son (God can be perfectly the Father, the same God, and God can be perfectly the Son, the same God). The Son showed man how to be in relationship to the Father. By this, He is the pattern Son of the many sons who will come after Him.
One more thought: The Son is spirit, the Father is spirit, and the Holy Spirit is spirit; that is why there is no biblical description of the Father. We see the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove and the Holy Spirit is pictured in all manner of types; oil, wine and so on and the Son is pictured in all manner of things and most completely in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. But the Father? The only reference we have to anything we could associate with the Father is the voice that spoke when the dove descended out of heaven and said, “This is My beloved Son.” Why has God remained so reclusive? Why has God remained so apart, so “other”? And the answer is: He’s completely accessible by assembly to His body and by the renewing of the mind, for in Christ we also have His mind.
“Let this mind be in you which also was in Christ.”
And, because God decided to present Himself as the Son, no one can say they accept the Father while rejecting the Son. It is only through the Son that man may have access to the Father. To say otherwise, is to contend that God is something other than the Father.
Be Blessed,
Aaron56
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Little children would not know what "omnipresent" means, and it is not even relevant to the Holy Trinity. The best thing to do is to make it clear at the outset that the Trinity is the Mystery of God and Christ. That even though God is one God, He does exist as three divine Persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. AND THERE IS NO HUMAN EXPLANATION for this. We accept it purely by faith, since that is exactly what the Bible reveals. Even all the analogies fail, and the danger of Oneness doctrine is always there.
As to "capable of becoming His own creation" that will simply generate more confusion. The Lord Jesus Christ was the Word of God (the Son of God) from eternity past. He became the Man Christ Jesus when He was born supernaturally and miraculously. But He did not become "His own creation". He was the God-Man. Fully God and fully sinless Man. But prior to that He was the Word -- the Creator (John 1:1-3). Therefore the Creator can never become the creature. Christ was unique in every respect. And He plainly claimed that He was God.
As to "capable of becoming His own creation" that will simply generate more confusion. The Lord Jesus Christ was the Word of God (the Son of God) from eternity past. He became the Man Christ Jesus when He was born supernaturally and miraculously. But He did not become "His own creation". He was the God-Man. Fully God and fully sinless Man. But prior to that He was the Word -- the Creator (John 1:1-3). Therefore the Creator can never become the creature. Christ was unique in every respect. And He plainly claimed that He was God.
Well...I have no real issue with the mystery of the trinity. It's beyond me and that's OK. I could share how I understood things as a child if that would help but mostly the distinctions were irrelevant.
In brief, I wanted to be with the Father forever. Whoever made all this stuff (planets, sun, the universe) and my mother told me that Jesus was the way to the Father so I consented. I understood him as the door very young. The personhood of the Holy Spirit though and separating him from the Father and the son is enormously difficult so I don't really try. I would quite often forget about the Holy Spirit and just "talk to God" and follow the leading in my heart to not do certain things and submit to convictions. It wasn't until my teens that deeper knowledge of the trinity blossomed and I was more conscious of things.
There was a pastor that said in my youth that the Father commands the light to come on. Jesus carries out the command and flips the switch and the Holy Spirit is what makes the light come on...alas this boils the Spirit down to a "force" but showing the symbiosis and agreement impacted me a bit and gave me something to push back against about why that's not true... That's the only analogy I've ever heard besides that Irish video a year or so ago.
It doesn't much matter to me and it isn't usually relevant (for me) to spend a lot of time thinking about it. It matters to not be in clear error (modalism, oneness, etc.) and to understand texts that support the trinity but otherwise it didn't ever really impact my walk a whole bunch as a child.
There were times when it was relevant in particular instances in my youth but mostly it's an enigma that my flesh certainly wants to solve but my spirit is content with the mystery.
In brief, I wanted to be with the Father forever. Whoever made all this stuff (planets, sun, the universe) and my mother told me that Jesus was the way to the Father so I consented. I understood him as the door very young. The personhood of the Holy Spirit though and separating him from the Father and the son is enormously difficult so I don't really try. I would quite often forget about the Holy Spirit and just "talk to God" and follow the leading in my heart to not do certain things and submit to convictions. It wasn't until my teens that deeper knowledge of the trinity blossomed and I was more conscious of things.
There was a pastor that said in my youth that the Father commands the light to come on. Jesus carries out the command and flips the switch and the Holy Spirit is what makes the light come on...alas this boils the Spirit down to a "force" but showing the symbiosis and agreement impacted me a bit and gave me something to push back against about why that's not true... That's the only analogy I've ever heard besides that Irish video a year or so ago.
It doesn't much matter to me and it isn't usually relevant (for me) to spend a lot of time thinking about it. It matters to not be in clear error (modalism, oneness, etc.) and to understand texts that support the trinity but otherwise it didn't ever really impact my walk a whole bunch as a child.
There were times when it was relevant in particular instances in my youth but mostly it's an enigma that my flesh certainly wants to solve but my spirit is content with the mystery.
E
Like I said,
1. the son was sent from the father.
Even in the OT.
Is 48:
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
Here, the son speaks as the God of Israel. Who is sent by the father and the spirit.
2. The son does nothing but the fathers will. Not his own
3. No one has seen the father. But we have seen the son. (Although not as he truly is)
I can go on and on.
1. the son was sent from the father.
Even in the OT.
Is 48:
Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
Here, the son speaks as the God of Israel. Who is sent by the father and the spirit.
2. The son does nothing but the fathers will. Not his own
3. No one has seen the father. But we have seen the son. (Although not as he truly is)
I can go on and on.
P
Right in the first verse of the bible...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
That word God or name used if you will is plural and not singular.
The correct reading would then be ...In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth.
Which would bring this scripture into light...Let us make man in our image.
From beginning to end the bible deals with 3 things. The physical, the spiritual, and the transformation of it.
It is ruled by the godhead...father, son, and holy ghost. Who are in one accord.
Untill creation there was no need for intervention and transformation for all was spiritual. God is a spirit.
Creation of a physical realm required God to rule the physical by the physical.
For all things to become new required God to rule the transformation of it .
Now let's look at what scripture says, ...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
There is not one righteous no not one. And at the end we read....who is worthy to open the seals.
If no one is found worthy, righteous, and Holy we must conclude that Gods creation was a faliure.
Conclusion.
God knowing the end from the beginning became a servant of himself, by himself, for himself, least any man should boast.
In laymen terms God became chief, cook, and bottle washer.
Jesus was sent "but he always was"......the Holy Spirit was sent but he always was. God remained for he always is.
That word God or name used if you will is plural and not singular.
The correct reading would then be ...In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth.
Which would bring this scripture into light...Let us make man in our image.
From beginning to end the bible deals with 3 things. The physical, the spiritual, and the transformation of it.
It is ruled by the godhead...father, son, and holy ghost. Who are in one accord.
Untill creation there was no need for intervention and transformation for all was spiritual. God is a spirit.
Creation of a physical realm required God to rule the physical by the physical.
For all things to become new required God to rule the transformation of it .
Now let's look at what scripture says, ...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
There is not one righteous no not one. And at the end we read....who is worthy to open the seals.
If no one is found worthy, righteous, and Holy we must conclude that Gods creation was a faliure.
Conclusion.
God knowing the end from the beginning became a servant of himself, by himself, for himself, least any man should boast.
In laymen terms God became chief, cook, and bottle washer.
Jesus was sent "but he always was"......the Holy Spirit was sent but he always was. God remained for he always is.
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I've been listening to Michael Heiser. I am not sure I buy the 'angel of the Lord' ideas-- that many of these references to the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament refer to the preincarnate Christ. It is an ancient idea. I first encountered it reading Justin Martyr who probably wrote around 150 AD, and it may have been a pre-Christian Jewish precursor to Trinitarian beliefs. There is that passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Yahweh reigns down fire from Yahweh out of heaven. Heiser's idea, if I understand it right, is that there is an entity that is Yahweh, but distinct from Yahweh, Who serves as the head of the divine council. Heiser didn't invent this, and he references a book written by a Jewish scholar who pointed out that Judaism used to have this teaching but later rejected it. The theory is called the Two Powers in Heaven.
The burning bush passage refers to the angel of the LORD speaking out of the bush, and also refers to the LORD speaking. I had often interpreted passages like this to mean the angel prophesied on behalf of the LORD, but I am open to this other theory, especially if it laid the groundwork for understanding the trinity in Judaism.
Talmudic Judaism also had similar concepts like the theory that two of the three visitors that visited Abraham were embodiments of certain characteristics of God.
St. Ireneaus described the Son and the Spirit as the arms of the Lord. Before describing Jesus, Isaiah 53 says, "To whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed."
The burning bush passage refers to the angel of the LORD speaking out of the bush, and also refers to the LORD speaking. I had often interpreted passages like this to mean the angel prophesied on behalf of the LORD, but I am open to this other theory, especially if it laid the groundwork for understanding the trinity in Judaism.
Talmudic Judaism also had similar concepts like the theory that two of the three visitors that visited Abraham were embodiments of certain characteristics of God.
St. Ireneaus described the Son and the Spirit as the arms of the Lord. Before describing Jesus, Isaiah 53 says, "To whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed."
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my thoughts are, rejoice! they" considered Jesus to be a heretic as well, you must be doing something right
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
They existed before mankind
Gen (KJV) 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen (KJV) 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
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