Am I wrong..Are they wrong? Was I sinning, were they? I'm so confused.

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Feb 9, 2014
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#1
I want to be careful here...because I don't want to make accusations against a leader...but I also don't know what to do or how to feel or what to think.
Let me preface this by saying I wound up in a Calvinist church since then that I love so far...and teaches the Bible as best as they can, and have an extreme focus on just Scripture...whereas previous churches usually centered around apostolic signs, a couple verses with personal interpretation, excess of love with no mention of wrath/justice, or extreme hate-group mentality (solely preaching anti-homosexuality with no regard for any other doctrine). Very rarely was there an intent focus on Scripture in any of these churches...a few verses here, a few there...but nothing like I experience now.

So, onto my story. I feel as though I should reconcile with my former pastor and his family, though they are an AofG church. I want to, but I feel like they don't...or at least it's very confusing. Perhaps I'm in the wrong. I really have no idea. I'm willing to own up to my mistakes, if indeed they are a mistake. When I first started going, after just a short time the youth pastor recruited me to be an assistant in the youth program...I didn't feel comfortable, didn't feel spiritually mature, didn't feel it wise...I told him this but he reassured me that God was "stretching my faith." Reluctantly, I agreed. Shortly after I came on board. the youth pastor stepped down, leaving me to teach the youth sunday morning on my own. They gave me resources to use...but I felt far from a reliable resource to the youth...I did the best I could. But what's important here is this is essentially how I got to know the youth, including the pastor's children, and in many regards felt like I was a friend of the family. Truth be told, this all did go fairly well for 4-5 years, and I hope that in some way the children heard the Gospel message, though at the time I would say it would have been more Arminian-focused than Calvinistic.

But one of the pastor's daughters messaged me on facebook, to talk about Sherlock, and books she would read. I didn't think anything of it...and we messaged back and forth for quite some time...never anything inappropriate...just random hobbies or theological topics. Perhaps it was inappropriate of me to continue messaging her...perhaps I thought if the topics were safe then it was ok..maybe I was mistaken. Anyways, much time had passed and fast forward to 2017, December...at this point all the pastor's children whom I had mentored were college age...the girl in question had turned 18 a few months before our fallout. So a few days before Christmas, this girl, and her sister ignored me completely, no hi or anything, and her brother approached me and said I was"barely tolerable." Apparently, this triggered some mental problem in me. I became depressed, went online trying to figure out what I did wrong...I vaguely remember reading an article about emotional abuse and became convinced that was what I had did...leading to being more depressed, which became an episode similar to schizophrenic bipolar (this is where you hallucinate while you are depressed...or sometimes have mania). In this state, because of believing I was emotionally abusive, I turned myself into the police for a crime I didn't commit. They took me to mental health, and this would lead to roughly a month of hospital visits, including a one week stay in the mental health ward, and months of seeing a therapist and psychiatrist. When I got out I saw that the girl I had been in contact with had essentially blocked me from messaging her, but I could still see her profile.

The assistant pastor visited me in mental health and again shortly after I got out...and discussed with him...and he said he knew very little about what was going on, but did say he doesn't think I did anything to offend the main pastor or his family. And said I should talk to the pastor, and that the pastor was more than willing to meet with me. I also asked the asst pastor how he felt about me going back to church...and he asked if I thought about other churches...idk if it was his intention but because of everything it felt like he was pushing me in the direction of somewhere else.

So I did. The pastor said it's "hard to love your neighbor when you don't love yourself." And that was there was no animosity, and they care about me, and that they were working on "boundaries," a concept they utilized from Henry Cloud's book. And that my actions have consequences. And that he did not view me as a threat. And that I could come back to church, but only large services, not smaller bible studies. And that the police talked to the girl in question, and then him. I asked if I hurt anybody, he said he didn't feel slighted in any way; and I told him about what his son said...and he said he didn't know about that but that he would have words with him. When I went back home, I saw that the girl had fully blocked me now on facebook and instagram (I had not contacted her at all since the comment was made); so to me, it still felt like I was getting mixed signals about the animosity. However, I understood the whole police thing probably made everyone really uncomfortable.

I ceased contact for months...and occasionally would get a like or a birthday comment on facebook from the remaining family members, I had also decided to move to Texas with my sister, thousands of miles away from the church...so I thought with a few months before I leave and having been distant for months, why not try reaching out to the pastor again. I explained how I felt, feeling like they didn't really want me there. He responded saying I am welcome to come and they will treat me with kindness and respect, but as far as the past they hope to grow forward and want to give me the space I need to move forward, and how we all grow at our own pace. I remember praying about reconciling, and listening to their sermon online the day before I left...it was about not judging other people for their sins...and I ran into the girl in question and her mom at the mall the same day...the mom said hello but the girl did not. I just waved and went on my way not knowing what to do. Following this the mom and other daughter also blocked me on instagram, though we still remain listed as friends on Facebook.

The pastor seemed really enthusiastic about me coming to church or meeting with me...but the other family members do things to confuse me and make it seem like I am not welcome. I so badly want to work this out in some way but perhaps I've done too much damage. I don't even know if I'm the one who did wrong, or if I was under false teaching, or what.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#2
Honestly it does not sound like you did anything wrong. It does seem like you are placing too much focus on what others are doing. I do not understand the whole hospitalization scene. The church put you in a terrible situation, giving you responsibility you were not ready for, which you made the best of for years. Kudos to you! Then the pastor's daughter carried on an inappropriate relationship with you and blamed you for it, and dragged her family into it to prop her up. I would suggest you put much distance between you and this toxic family.
 
I

IFOLLOWHIM

Guest
#3
Wow!
What a mess!
I say this unto you,put your heart before God if He doesn't bring you under conviction for some wrong you have done,then leave it with Him in prayer!
Some people especially the young are ALL about drama!
I am sorry you have been through this!
Pray study and let God lead you!
 
T

tasha66

Guest
#4
Honestly it does not sound like you did anything wrong. It does seem like you are placing too much focus on what others are doing. I do not understand the whole hospitalization scene. The church put you in a terrible situation, giving you responsibility you were not ready for, which you made the best of for years. Kudos to you! Then the pastor's daughter carried on an inappropriate relationship with you and blamed you for it, and dragged her family into it to prop her up. I would suggest you put much distance between you and this toxic family.
Mag is wise - I'd listen to her.
Why on earth are you worrying about all these obviously toxic people?? It's making you depressed and draining you of your precious energy. You seem like you are worrying about every little thing - and that takes ALOT of energy you can't spare right now.
I'm not a Bible expert, but doesn't it say in the Bible to 'turn your face away' from toxic people, and not to associate with them?
I love this scripture and I think it's applicable to your situation - 2 Timothy 3:
"3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."
Start your OWN walk with God - pray every day and ask Him to guide you towards knowing Him, & to meet new, like minded people.
Toxic people are toxic anywhere they go. Just because these people are part of an international church doesn't mean they are any better than you or me. Deny their power and ignore them. Change your email, phone number etc and stop going to that church. I know this is easy for me to say, but I have had personal experience with family who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and who literally left their family & their church, due to toxic people and ideas they didn't agree with.
And may I say, I don't know if you are really young, but you need to stand up for yourself and learn to say NO. If you say yes to everything and try to be a people pleaser, you not only stress yourself out and end up with mental and physical problems, but you are giving power to the people who are pushing you into things you don't want to do.
There is nothing wrong with saying no, and you need to care for your own mental health right now. If other people don't like it - tough cookies mate.
Start practicing saying NO in front of a mirror, or with a friend. If people go on at you as they have, trying to persuade you to do something, simply state that your circumstances don't permit you to take on that responsibility. Don't argue back with people when they go on at you - don't nod your head or state that you agree, because then you are giving assent to their criticism. Persuading people to do things they obviously don't want to do is highly manipulative behaviour. Don't give a timeline like 'Maybe I can do such and such later on.' Simply repeat the same sentence that you can't help them right now, say bye and walk away. Continuing to engage with them, and arguing, will only fluster you and most people give in under pressure.
If people do continue to criticise you, it's hard not to bite back. Simply state to any criticism: 'That is your opinion. See you later!' then disengage from them. That way, you are not inviting any more comments, and you are not acknowledging their criticism - you are not agreeing or disagreeing with them.
Believe me, they will leave you alone after a while as they will be so confused, they won't know what to think!
Don't worry re every little thing - it's pointless, truly.
Trust in the almighty - He knows your needs and will help you, if you let him! Cheers :)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#5
Mag is wise - I'd listen to her.
Thank you for your very kind words, and do please excuse me for editing out all you had to say to missufan01. You put a lot of wisdom and heart and solid people experience into your posts to others, as you seek to uplift and encourage them. I was thinking about how I said I did not understand the whole hospital scene... but it was more not understanding why missufan would turn themselves over to the police for a crime they did not commit. The fact of the matter is that I was hospitalized in my youth (well over 40 years ago) as a result of how other people treated me, and was quite sick fretting over what others thought and how other people behaved toward me. I was not a Christian at the time and was as lost as lost can be. Perhaps all that adds to my understanding of how important it is to make Jesus the center of our lives and the Rock upon which we stand, for He will never fail us, while others often do... and we sometimes even fail our own selves, especially if we have poor boundaries and/or extremely low self esteem.

 
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tasha66

Guest
#6
@Mag: Sorry to hear you were hospitalised. What a bummer that must've been :(
For many years, and even today, doctors and researchers underestimated the power of stress. Stress can literally kill us, and it takes many forms.
I think that women especially are brought up not to say 'No', as it is considered rude, and women are told they can do everything in life - work, raise kids, keep the hubby or partner happy, study as well, etc - and all the while, we are slowly dying inside. It happens to men too, who are suppoed to be the strong one, providing everything for their family.
But we all really need to sit and take a look at our priorities. What really causes all of this stress? Are our selfish, money hungry lifestyles part of it? I think so. Do we really need to spend a fortune this Xmas, or get into debt buying a new car when our old one does the job OK, or buy a new sofa when the old one is still OK? I blame using credit cards indiscriminately for alot of stress that happens.
Alof of stuff causes stress, but if we sit back and think about what REALLY matters - like our family - I bet many people's stress would be reduced significantly. And people that bully people into doing stuff don't understand boundaries in any way whatsoever - that is why we have to say NO, and teach them that hey! You have just overstepped the boundary line with me buddy, so back off!
Dealing with people and trying to manage them, is the most stressful thing you will ever do in life.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#7
Thank you for your very kind words, and do please excuse me for editing out all you had to say to missufan01. You put a lot of wisdom and heart and solid people experience into your posts to others, as you seek to uplift and encourage them. I was thinking about how I said I did not understand the whole hospital scene... but it was more not understanding why missufan would turn themselves over to the police for a crime they did not commit. The fact of the matter is that I was hospitalized in my youth (well over 40 years ago) as a result of how other people treated me, and was quite sick fretting over what others thought and how other people behaved toward me. I was not a Christian at the time and was as lost as lost can be. Perhaps all that adds to my understanding of how important it is to make Jesus the center of our lives and the Rock upon which we stand, for He will never fail us, while others often do... and we sometimes even fail our own selves, especially if we have poor boundaries and/or extremely low self esteem.

It was sort of a mix...after the "barely tolerable" comment was made, I became depressed and overanalyzed everything, and came across the emotional abuse website...it said you could be arrested for emotional abuse of a minor...Nowadays I don't believe I did but at the time I convinced myself I did, what with all the facebook messages...on top of this I also hallucinated that the police were after me...hallucinations of red lights and police scanners in my room, as well as hallucinating a white van with equipment was outside my place. Needless to say, this was an extremely confusing time.
 

Ghoti2

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2019
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#8
I think you made a mistake going online to "diagnose" yourself, and I think you are doing it again by playing around on this forum as though you are talking with psychiatric professionals.

Choose one of the professionals you felt some trust for, and limit yourself to their input and advice for the time being. It is really not wise nor healthy doing what you are doing... looking for answers here.
 
M

MegMarch

Guest
#9
It was sort of a mix...after the "barely tolerable" comment was made, I became depressed and overanalyzed everything, and came across the emotional abuse website...it said you could be arrested for emotional abuse of a minor...Nowadays I don't believe I did but at the time I convinced myself I did, what with all the facebook messages...on top of this I also hallucinated that the police were after me...hallucinations of red lights and police scanners in my room, as well as hallucinating a white van with equipment was outside my place. Needless to say, this was an extremely confusing time.
I’m so sorry you are going through this. It is heart wrenching. I’m a teacher at a private Christian school and, while slightly different, I make it a point never to message male students, and I’m even careful when I reply to messages from female students. I also will not be in a room with a male student alone with the door closed or anything similar.

God knows the motives of your heart. Kids will sometimes perceive things incorrectly for whatever reason, and it can be really traumatizing when that happens for the adult involved. I'm so sorry this is affecting your mental health. If I have any conflicts with a student or parent, I seek the counsel of other believers to help me discern the issue. God will reign victorious, but he may be teaching you something about boundaries in your position.
 

Ghoti2

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2019
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#10
I’m so sorry you are going through this. It is heart wrenching. I’m a teacher at a private Christian school and, while slightly different, I make it a point never to message male students, and I’m even careful when I reply to messages from female students. I also will not be in a room with a male student alone with the door closed or anything similar.

God knows the motives of your heart. Kids will sometimes perceive things incorrectly for whatever reason, and it can be really traumatizing when that happens for the adult involved. I'm so sorry this is affecting your mental health. If I have any conflicts with a student or parent, I seek the counsel of other believers to help me discern the issue. God will reign victorious, but he may be teaching you something about boundaries in your position.
Excellent advice you would be wise to follow, m-01.
 

melita916

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
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#11
OP, have you talked with your current pastor about this situation?

also, in my personal opinion, if you already apologized to the family (i can't remember if you mentioned you did), then i see no need to do more than that.
 
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MegMarch

Guest
#12
I hope you won't beat yourself up over it. If a student or youth group kid is slanderous, God will defend you, and it will prove untrue in the end.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#13
I hope you won't beat yourself up over it. If a student or youth group kid is slanderous, God will defend you, and it will prove untrue in the end.
I really have no idea what the girl said or what her reasons were for what happened...maybe that's what is confusing me. idk if anything was slanderous bc I don't know what was said between the family.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#14
OP, have you talked with your current pastor about this situation?

also, in my personal opinion, if you already apologized to the family (i can't remember if you mentioned you did), then i see no need to do more than that.
My current pastor as in the pastor of the new Calvinist church I'm attending? Only briefly...he said, being that he doesn't know the other party and had only recently met me at the time we discussed...he didn't feel it wise to offer input as he doesn't know them. That seemed like a fair statement to me.
Yes, I apologized......the pastor said I shouldn't have to apologize for being mentally ill---so it seems like he thought I was apologizing for the police/hallucinations incident.
But he said he didn't feel slighted when I asked if I did something to hurt someone, so I'm just having trouble as to their reasons, seeing as how it was their insult to me that triggered the worst events.
I have not received any apology from them in regards to the comments that were made or lack of communication either.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
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#15
I really have no idea what the girl said or what her reasons were for what happened...maybe that's what is confusing me. idk if anything was slanderous bc I don't know what was said between the family.
Screwed up people. Why would you Want to go back or maintain any interaction with them? They pressured you into a position you weren't ready for and then gaslighted you.
You did your best at the time, and have apologized for things you didn't even do wrong. And even took on punishment that was unnecessary. You've more than done what you need to do to be cleared spiritually. Knock the dust off and leave these crazies behind. Move on and focus on now, not the past.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#16
Screwed up people. Why would you Want to go back or maintain any interaction with them? They pressured you into a position you weren't ready for and then gaslighted you.
You did your best at the time, and have apologized for things you didn't even do wrong. And even took on punishment that was unnecessary. You've more than done what you need to do to be cleared spiritually. Knock the dust off and leave these crazies behind. Move on and focus on now, not the past.
To be fair...the youth pastor pressured me into the position...which is a separate issue from the main pastor's family. Separate people, separate issues. There's another story there but it has nothing to do with me or this story so probably isn't wise to bring it up.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
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#17
To be fair...the youth pastor pressured me into the position...which is a separate issue from the main pastor's family. Separate people, separate issues. There's another story there but it has nothing to do with me or this story so probably isn't wise to bring it up.
Same church. Leadership trickles down. Bad leadership inspires bad leadership.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#18
Screwed up people. Why would you Want to go back or maintain any interaction with them? They pressured you into a position you weren't ready for and then gaslighted you.
You did your best at the time, and have apologized for things you didn't even do wrong. And even took on punishment that was unnecessary. You've more than done what you need to do to be cleared spiritually. Knock the dust off and leave these crazies behind. Move on and focus on now, not the past.
As to your question: why would you want to maintain any interaction with them?"
Because the Bible tells me to? To forgive and reconcile, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God? Let there be no divisions among you?
Maybe this is just me but I find it absolutely devastating that I have yet to find a church that practices these steps. I understand there are exceptions if a person remains unrepentant...but it just bothers me that I have yet to see such a thing happen in 15 years of church (whether it involved me or not)...and it just bothers me.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#19
As to your question: why would you want to maintain any interaction with them?"
Because the Bible tells me to? To forgive and reconcile, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God? Let there be no divisions among you?
Maybe this is just me but I find it absolutely devastating that I have yet to find a church that practices these steps. I understand there are exceptions if a person remains unrepentant...but it just bothers me that I have yet to see such a thing happen in 15 years of church (whether it involved me or not)...and it just bothers me.
Paul said, "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naïve."

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

"These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage."

"It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit."


The divisions show us who are truly His and who are not.

Jesus told us to shake the dust off our feet and move on from those we find no fellowship with.
 
Feb 9, 2014
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#20
Paul said, "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naïve."

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

"These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage."

"It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit."

The divisions show us who are truly His and who are not.

Jesus told us to shake the dust off our feet and move on from those we find no fellowship with.