American fundamentalist vs Muslim fundamentalists

[Mediate]

Ilah, Allah.

YHWH, Yahweh.

God, G-d.

Elohim.

Christ, Messiah, Jesus, J'SHua, Yeshua.

God divided language to stunt man's progress.

Translation and interpretation are always key.

God is mercy, forgiveness and love. It is through this veil we should read. Then all the mystery comes unravelled.

 

[Mediate]

If you study into mistranslation and Arabic old language. Hyperbole and symbolism, then things make more sense.

Mohammed had a very sarcastic and oft- times blunt way of making people realise.

Like when Jesus said 'Cut off your right hand'.

That's what I get from the Qu'ran anyway. And the bible.

 

[leonardronaldo]

If you study into mistranslation and Arabic old language. Hyperbole and symbolism, then things make more sense.

Mohammed had a very sarcastic and oft- times blunt way of making people realise.

Like when Jesus said 'Cut off your right hand'.

That's what I get from the Qu'ran anyway. And the bible.

Well Ilah was derived from the Hebrew word Eloh(im). Many translators have either deliberately or been forced to mistranslated the word allah into God in english.
Al-Lah, was the name of one of the gods of pagan Arabia. (which heavily influenced by the egyptian pagan moon god, Lah).

Well many have answered and discussed about "Pluck your eyes and Cut your right hand off". One of the easiest to understand - explanation, IMO, is the GQKIDZ.ORG 's answer.

God Bless

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Ah, so now, the Jordan Kingdom's official governmental website and Saudi Arabia's official governmental website is biased?

Yes, they would probably be biased in favor of Islam. I don't know if the sites would actually, purposely mis-translate things, but they certainly would choose words -- maybe even subconsciously -- that would put a pro-Islam spin on whatever the passage said.

I don't know if you speak any languages other than English, or if you have any experience in translating. If you don't, then I guess you wouldn't understand what it means to do a translation of a work from one language into another. But if you've ever had to translate something, you understand that often, there are a lot of different ways one could translate something, and each way could have a slightly different meaning. That can even happen with just one language.

Example:

"You can't be too careful."

Now, does that mean that no matter how careful you are, you're never going to go overboard and be too careful, so go ahead and be overly cautious?

Or, does it mean don't over-think it, just do it, because if you try to be too careful, it won't work?

See, it could mean either one, and the two interpretations are completely opposite of each other. Right?

That's just staying within one language. Now, imagine going from one language to a different language, and also a different culture, different time, different world-view. All these problems become exponentially compounded.

Just as with Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, many verses have multiple possible meanings, and different translators will choose different meanings depending on their bias. And there's no such thing as someone with no bias.

So yes, websites from Islamic governments are going to have a pro-Islamic bias. No, they would probably not have a Christian bias or a Jewish bias. There might be Jewish or Christian websites out there that could offer translations with a Christian or Jewish bias. If you aren't fluent in Arabic, your best bet is to read several different translations with several different biases, so you might hear the different possible understandings of each verse.

How do you know I haven't done my learning on Islam?

Your lack of understanding of these topics is rather obvious from what you say.

Everything on the web is 100% true and accurate, come on. you know it's not true. There are many contradicting news and literatures out there, how can all of them (100%) be true?

This is called "satire."

When a person says something that is obviously false in a mocking or condescending tone, it is called "sarcasm" or "satire." Now, I understand that sometimes it's hard to get "tone" from writing when you don't have visual or aural cues. Jonathan Swift had that problem when people didn't realize he was being satirical in his writing. A writer of satire hopes that the audience is smart enough to understand that what they are writing is so obviously false that it is clearly intended to be taken as satire.

The problem Swift had, and the problem many of us have, is we over-estimate the intelligence of our audience.

So, I apologize for over-estimating your intelligence. It won't happen again.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

What kind of witch-hunts are you talking about? To be honest, I don't know what exactly you are talking about, since I haven't heard of people in this century thinking that killing anyone was biblical. I know that pagans were persecuted soon after Constantine made Christianity the official religion, but I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about. Maybe send a link if you want?

If you get a chance, read about the >>>Witch Hunts<<< that took place when Massachusetts was still a colony (17th Century). This is actually kind of a cycle in Christianity. We see similar episodes throughout civilization -- there's the pagan persecution you mention after Constantine, various "ethnic cleansings" in Europe during the Dark Ages, the above-mentioned Witch Hunts, and the Red Scare less than 100 years ago (I remember a time when, if someone admitted to being an atheist, they might not get killed, but they could easily lose their job, lose their home, have the bank repossess all of their belongings, and find themselves destitute with no one willing to give them a glance let alone a chance. People would have to change their names and move to a new city to start over.)

And just a few months ago, there was a preacher here in the States who suggested we take all the gay people away from society and put them in a compound where they wouldn't be able to "infect" anyone else, and just leave them there to die. Granted, I am glad to report that MANY Christians were quick to criticize him. Most of the mainstream Christian leaders rejected this message and reminded people that we believe in "love the sinner hate the sin." But the fact that even today, people could say something like that ... yes, it still happens.

You are right, though: it seems to me that the most violent and hateful Christians still aren't as bad or as numerous as the extreme Muslims.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Yes, they would probably be biased in favor of Islam. I don't know if the sites would actually, purposely mis-translate things, but they certainly would choose words -- maybe even subconsciously -- that would put a pro-Islam spin on whatever the passage said.

I don't know if you speak any languages other than English, or if you have any experience in translating. If you don't, then I guess you wouldn't understand what it means to do a translation of a work from one language into another. But if you've ever had to translate something, you understand that often, there are a lot of different ways one could translate something, and each way could have a slightly different meaning. That can even happen with just one language.

Example:

"You can't be too careful."

Now, does that mean that no matter how careful you are, you're never going to go overboard and be too careful, so go ahead and be overly cautious?

Or, does it mean don't over-think it, just do it, because if you try to be too careful, it won't work?

See, it could mean either one, and the two interpretations are completely opposite of each other. Right?

That's just staying within one language. Now, imagine going from one language to a different language, and also a different culture, different time, different world-view. All these problems become exponentially compounded.

Just as with Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, many verses have multiple possible meanings, and different translators will choose different meanings depending on their bias. And there's no such thing as someone with no bias.

So yes, websites from Islamic governments are going to have a pro-Islamic bias. No, they would probably not have a Christian bias or a Jewish bias. There might be Jewish or Christian websites out there that could offer translations with a Christian or Jewish bias. If you aren't fluent in Arabic, your best bet is to read several different translations with several different biases, so you might hear the different possible understandings of each verse.


Your lack of understanding of these topics is rather obvious from what you say.


This is called "satire."

When a person says something that is obviously false in a mocking or condescending tone, it is called "sarcasm" or "satire." Now, I understand that sometimes it's hard to get "tone" from writing when you don't have visual or aural cues. Jonathan Swift had that problem when people didn't realize he was being satirical in his writing. A writer of satire hopes that the audience is smart enough to understand that what they are writing is so obviously false that it is clearly intended to be taken as satire.

The problem Swift had, and the problem many of us have, is we over-estimate the intelligence of our audience.

So, I apologize for over-estimating your intelligence. It won't happen again.

Wow, what happen with your understanding of things? So if I want to learn about islam, i can't learn from the pro-Islam sites? And I have to compare to the proJewish and proChristian website? lol Try to say it to a muslim then, or anyone else in the world. Well I don't know what to say with you. I am Indonesian and you say I can only speak English?
Nice guess. lol
About interpretations, if you are sunni, there are only 2 earliest and most respected tafsirs (interpretations) of the quran. You can't interpret quran as you like. You might be killed if you do, even if you are an imam or a mufti. The tafsirs are Tafsir Al-Jalalayn and Tafsir Ibn- Abbas. Ibn Abbas himself was the cousin of muhammad. So please, as I said, if you haven't learn much of Islam, i can recommend you to talk with my friend AziziLoveChrist, he speaks arabic and he memorized quran on hiz teen age (he was an ex-muslim). I think he will love to teach you about islam, if you are sincere and not 'act-like-you-know-better', of course.
I wonder why you are very excited to prove me wrong before checking it yourself or even challenge me on a topic of islam or any claim that i have made. Who cares about that Swift guy? I thought we are discussing Islam?
Thanks for making me looked like not intelligent. It's a nice compliment to me.

Peace
GBu

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Wow, what happen with your understanding of things?

I understand plenty, and if I don't understand something, I will ask for clarification. I'm not sure what, exactly, you are referring to. Perhaps you could be more specific?

So if I want to learn about islam, i can't learn from the pro-Islam sites? And I have to compare to the proJewish and proChristian website?

I have no idea where you got that idea; I said nothing of the sort. Initially, I said any translation you would read would be biased. You were trying to say that a translation sponsored by the Government of Saudi Arabia would not be biased. I pointed out that it would be biased, towards a pro-Islam slant. I did not say that was good or bad, just pointing out that it is biased.

You may want to get yourself a dictionary. It seems there are a lot of words that you really don't know what they mean. You seem to be throwing words around a lot without having an understanding of what you are talking about. Perhaps if you looked things up in a dictionary first, you might save yourself some embarrassment and confusion. Perhaps not, but it's worth a try.

In this example, I'm guessing you don't know the meaning of the word "biased," and a lot of your confusion stems from this. Not knowing what the word means, you're making assumptions, and those assumptions are, unfortunately, incorrect, so you end up not making any sense at all. Easy mistake to make. Also easily remedied: simply look up the word instead of making up your own definition for something. Or, ask what a word means, if you don't know.

Well I don't know what to say with you.

That has been made blatantly clear.

I am Indonesian and you say I can only speak English?

First of all, this explains a lot: English is not your native language.

Secondly: I did not say you can only speak English, I asked if you spoke any other languages. Out of curiosity, are you using "Google translate" to help you translate to and from your native language to English on these sites, or are you using English as you have learned it?

Either way, since English is not your native language, a lot of what is going on makes a lot more sense: you have completely misunderstood many of the things I have said. I did not realize that you were not a native English speaker. I will try to speak more clearly, now that I realize you are not a native English speaker. I know that English is a very difficult language to people who did not learn it growing up. There are a lot of strange rules of grammar.

About interpretations, if you are sunni, there are only 2 earliest and most respected tafsirs (interpretations) of the quran.

Thank you for this information. I was aware that there are several different "sects" of Islam, though I do not know a lot about how they differ. I probably know more about Islam than your typical American, but that isn't saying much, and I am always interested in learning more. First I have to finish this class I'm taking right now, though. Assuming I pass this class, I may very well look into taking some comparative religion courses to learn more about Islam.

I wonder why you are very excited to prove me wrong before checking it yourself or even challenge me on a topic of islam or any claim that i have made.

I am not "excited" to prove you wrong, and I always check the accuracy of things before stating them as fact. Again, you have misunderstood me, and I blame the language barrier.

Who cares about that Swift guy? I thought we are discussing Islam?

Well, I don't know if the Indonesian language does this, but in English and every other language I have studied, it is common to use one thing as an example for something else. Sometimes this is called "allegory" or "parable." Of course, using this device requires that the audience is aware of the example, or else it doesn't work. I will keep this in mind for future reference.

Thanks for making me looked like not intelligent. It's a nice compliment to me.

It wasn't anything I did. You deserve 100% of the credit for that one.

 

[leonardronaldo]

I understand plenty, and if I don't understand something, I will ask for clarification. I'm not sure what, exactly, you are referring to. Perhaps you could be more specific?


I have no idea where you got that idea; I said nothing of the sort. Initially, I said any translation you would read would be biased. You were trying to say that a translation sponsored by the Government of Saudi Arabia would not be biased. I pointed out that it would be biased, towards a pro-Islam slant. I did not say that was good or bad, just pointing out that it is biased.

You may want to get yourself a dictionary. It seems there are a lot of words that you really don't know what they mean. You seem to be throwing words around a lot without having an understanding of what you are talking about. Perhaps if you looked things up in a dictionary first, you might save yourself some embarrassment and confusion. Perhaps not, but it's worth a try.

In this example, I'm guessing you don't know the meaning of the word "biased," and a lot of your confusion stems from this. Not knowing what the word means, you're making assumptions, and those assumptions are, unfortunately, incorrect, so you end up not making any sense at all. Easy mistake to make. Also easily remedied: simply look up the word instead of making up your own definition for something. Or, ask what a word means, if you don't know.


That has been made blatantly clear.


First of all, this explains a lot: English is not your native language.

Secondly: I did not say you can only speak English, I asked if you spoke any other languages. Out of curiosity, are you using "Google translate" to help you translate to and from your native language to English on these sites, or are you using English as you have learned it?

Either way, since English is not your native language, a lot of what is going on makes a lot more sense: you have completely misunderstood many of the things I have said. I did not realize that you were not a native English speaker. I will try to speak more clearly, now that I realize you are not a native English speaker. I know that English is a very difficult language to people who did not learn it growing up. There are a lot of strange rules of grammar.


Thank you for this information. I was aware that there are several different "sects" of Islam, though I do not know a lot about how they differ. I probably know more about Islam than your typical American, but that isn't saying much, and I am always interested in learning more. First I have to finish this class I'm taking right now, though. Assuming I pass this class, I may very well look into taking some comparative religion courses to learn more about Islam.


I am not "excited" to prove you wrong, and I always check the accuracy of things before stating them as fact. Again, you have misunderstood me, and I blame the language barrier.


Well, I don't know if the Indonesian language does this, but in English and every other language I have studied, it is common to use one thing as an example for something else. Sometimes this is called "allegory" or "parable." Of course, using this device require that the audience is aware of the example, or else it doesn't work. I will keep this in mind for future reference.


It wasn't anything I did. You deserve 100% of the credit for that one.

Ok, Mrs. native-speaker-of-english.
I don't need your english teachings or lectures here.
Are you gonna discuss islam or what?

My point is if you are going to learn islam, especially reaching out muslims, you would have a better chance to show from that official 'pro-islam' site. No muslims will care about any pro-Jewish or Christian Interpretation of Islam. Can you understand?

I know and understand what the word biased means, i just don't understand why should you bring that term out. What that has to do with Islam? Especially you mentioned Christian biased Jewish biased. Who cares about that? No muslims will touch that, especially when they now it is Christian Biased or Jewish Biased. So let the Bias Thing go.

Well you would have known english is not my native by simply looking at the flag next to my name. It's not a hard thing to do. I don't need google translate or you to teach me english. So just let the language barrier thing go. I fully understand what I claimed and what I said in English.

Well actually I learned English since I was 6 years old, so again, don't worry with anything.
What do you mean "I know more about Islam than your typical American"?
Do you think I studied Islam from an American? or what do you mean exactly? You just admitted you don't know about sects in islam, and the next sentence you said, I know more?

Well, giving judgment to my intellectual, thinking that i am embarassed for my understanding, language knowledge, etc that's not trying to prove me wrong on unimportant things?
If you did check things, you wouldn't say many things that have been proven wrong, like Allah is another term for God in english, for example. haha come on

Indonesian also has that, but as I said, I don't know what that has to do with the discussion about Islam. Well I think you just don't wanna be looked silly in your knowledge about Islam, so you get to other subjects, God knows. If that so, I'll just stop this discussion, as it will only waste my time.

Peace of Christ

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I don't need your english teachings or lectures here.

Beg to differ. Perhaps you might learn from someone else, though.

Are you gonna discuss islam or what?

Sure. Was there something specific you wanted to discuss about Islam?

My point is if you are going to learn islam, especially reaching out muslims, you would have a better chance to show from that official 'pro-islam' site. No muslims will care about any pro-Jewish or Christian Interpretation of Islam. Can you understand?

That is a good and important point. Thank you for bringing it up.

I know and understand what the word biased means, i just don't understand why should you bring that term out. What that has to do with Islam? Especially you mentioned Christian biased Jewish biased. Who cares about that? No muslims will touch that, especially when they now it is Christian Biased or Jewish Biased. So let the Bias Thing go.

Actually, I did not mention "Christian bias" or "Jewish bias." You mentioned that. And if you don't understand what "bias" has to do with a translation, then you don't know what the word means. But if you don't want to learn what the word means, that is your decision.

Well you would have known english is not my native by simply looking at the flag next to my name.

As has been mentioned before -- I think even in this thread -- the flag doesn't necessarily represent a language. One member has chosen a Swiss flag just because it has a cross on it. And I know quite a few people who have citizenship in other countries but who are fluent in English, so the flag is a hint, but not a sure-fire indication.

What do you mean "I know more about Islam than your typical American"?

I meant just exactly what I said. The typical American is not even aware that there are different sects of Muslims, and they don't all agree on everything.

Do you think I studied Islam from an American? or what do you mean exactly?

No, I don't think that. Since you are Indonesian, you probably learned about Islam from the fact that there are a lot of Islams in your home country. A lot more there than in the US. Which is why I think a lot of Americans remain ignorant about Islam. I'm not sure where you would get the idea that I think you studied anything in America.

You just admitted you don't know about sects in islam, and the next sentence you said, I know more?

Again, you completely misunderstood me. I said I WAS aware that there were sects in Islam.

Now, I am happy to accept that you might misunderstand what I say due to a language barrier. You seem to want to dismiss that, but you are still misunderstanding what I say. When you read the exact opposite of what I say, when I say "I know x" and you read it as "I don't know x," what am I supposed to think? Would you rather I believe that you are purposely misunderstanding me? Or that you are stupid? I think it is better to assume that you misunderstand because you are not as fluent in English. You tell me: why do you read the opposite of what I write?

If you did check things, you wouldn't say many things that have been proven wrong, like Allah is another term for God in english, for example.

I invite you to educate yourself on the use of the word >>>Allah<<<< among Arab Christians to refer to the Christian God. It is even used by pre-Meccan pagans to refer to the pagan creator god. Sorry, you are wrong here. I am right.

Yes, I am very interested in learning more about Islam. I will learn from someone who knows what they are talking about. Which, you have proven, is not you.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Beg to differ. Perhaps you might learn from someone else, though.


Sure. Was there something specific you wanted to discuss about Islam?


That is a good and important point. Thank you for bringing it up.


Actually, I did not mention "Christian bias" or "Jewish bias." You mentioned that. And if you don't understand what "bias" has to do with a translation, then you don't know what the word means. But if you don't want to learn what the word means, that is your decision.


As has been mentioned before -- I think even in this thread -- the flag doesn't necessarily represent a language. One member has chosen a Swiss flag just because it has a cross on it. And I know quite a few people who have citizenship in other countries but who are fluent in English, so the flag is a hint, but not a sure-fire indication.


I meant just exactly what I said. The typical American is not even aware that there are different sects of Muslims, and they don't all agree on everything.


No, I don't think that. Since you are Indonesian, you probably learned about Islam from the fact that there are a lot of Islams in your home country. A lot more there than in the US. Which is why I think a lot of Americans remain ignorant about Islam. I'm not sure where you would get the idea that I think you studied anything in America.


Again, you completely misunderstood me. I said I WAS aware that there were sects in Islam.

Now, I am happy to accept that you might misunderstand what I say due to a language barrier. You seem to want to dismiss that, but you are still misunderstanding what I say. When you read the exact opposite of what I say, when I say "I know x" and you read it as "I don't know x," what am I supposed to think? Would you rather I believe that you are purposely misunderstanding me? Or that you are stupid? I think it is better to assume that you misunderstand because you are not as fluent in English. You tell me: why do you read the opposite of what I write?


I invite you to educate yourself on the use of the word >>>Allah<<<< among Arab Christians to refer to the Christian God. It is even used by pre-Meccan pagans to refer to the pagan creator god. Sorry, you are wrong here. I am right.

Yes, I am very interested in learning more about Islam. I will learn from someone who knows what they are talking about. Which, you have proven, is not you.

Haha, of course, I mentioned that as a comparison, because you brought up the bias thing. Which doesn't have anything whatsoever with Islam.
Well at least there's a hint as you said, but that's not important.
What do you mean there are a lot of Islams in Indonesia? Oh you must have meant there are a lot of muslims? Ok, now that makes more sense. Well because you simply said these words : "I know more than YOUR TYPICAL AMERICAN". Didn't you? Yeah you did say you know there are sects in islam, then you said you didn't know a lot about how they differ, didn't you?And then that's when you said : " I know more than your typical american". Again, what does that have to do anything with me or islam?

Wikipedia is very reliable of course, because everyone can edit it, i see now.
Well, let me suggest a 2-parts-explanation video on this particular issue.
I hope you learn a lot from him, as I did.

Why Arab Christians say Allah - Can Christians Say Allah In Malaysia ? part 1 of 2 - YouTube
Why Arab Christians say Allah - Can Christians Say Allah In Malaysia ? part 2 of 2 - YouTube


Peace of Christ.

 

[henrybest50]

How are you doing ,
hope you are doing great i saw Ur profile and photo you look so beautiful my name is Henry am from Nigeria but i live in Dakar Senegal by the grace of God i am 31 years old am single never married i am a God fearing man i do the things of God i am an evangelist by Gods help am searching for a honest caring understanding with a God fearing heart a woman that love God pls i would like to know you more better this is my email id [email protected] also this is my Facebook account [email protected] pls here is my phone number 00221777008200 am waiting to hear from you soonest God bless you peace in Jesus might name amen .

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

How are you doing ,
hope you are doing great i saw Ur profile and photo you look so beautiful my name is Henry am from Nigeria but i live in Dakar Senegal by the grace of God i am 31 years old am single never married i am a God fearing man i do the things of God i am an evangelist by Gods help am searching for a honest caring understanding with a God fearing heart a woman that love God pls i would like to know you more better this is my email id [email protected] also this is my Facebook account [email protected] pls here is my phone number 00221777008200 am waiting to hear from you soonest God bless you peace in Jesus might name amen .

O Lord have mercy, not here too? Is there no escape?