An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[ewq1938]

So you say. Did God say that?

Yes. Everything I have said comes from the bible.

 

[kleronomos]

Yes. Everything I have said comes from the bible.

So you say again

 

[ewq1938]

So you say again

Not said, proved:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you were right, no one need come out of their grave since they would have a new body not coming out of a grave.

 

[Absolutely]

You said Holy Spirit is received by laying of hand, not me. You were echoing Simon the sorcerer’s idea right there in Acts 8:19, and you so conveniently cut that part off.

I already explained it. Not with thought (as you are doing here, but with the bible)
That is what i made you go against.
But what is appalling, is the devil wanted to purchase the gift.
And you in league with showcasing THAT perversion of the GIFT OF GOD, by ascribing evil and error to the FACT, that in acts the BAPTISM in the Holy Spirit. Was given through the laying on of hands.
Here it is again.
Twist it for us;

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You are in a bad place when you make it your job to pervert Gods word

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
You will have to suspend reality about when the Bible indicates the 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

The first resurrection of the saved is WHEN the saved get their glorified bodies. So the first resurrection IS related to time.

The TIME when He comes, per 1 Cor 15:23.


This is irrelevant. He did sin, so let's not presume.


No. Christ died for everyone, yet most will be cast into the lake of fire. The "blood of the Lamb" paid the penalty for sin, so man will NOT go to the lake of fire because of sin.

He goes there because he never received the free gift of eternal life. (His name is not in the book of life) Rev 20:15


These statements require evidence from Scripture. The "body of the heavens" is the glorified body believers get "when He comes". Not before. So we HAVWEN'T BEEN GIVEN 2 bodies yet.


I don't know where you are getting your "material".


I don't believe any of this, as it cannot be found in the Bible. There is NO mention of salvation being described or referred to as a "resurrection".


I reject annihilationism. The Bible says that God "is able to kill the soul". But the Bible does NOT say that He has or ever will.


I believe the text of Rev 20 is quite clear. The first resurrection is of ALL believers and WHEN He comes, per 1 Cor 15:23.

So, "the rest of the dead" CANNOT be the saved, because all of them have already been resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

I've explained this over and over. It seems the concept just isn't sinking in. Or you just reject it.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

DO YOU SEE A 'FLESH BODY' THAT IS GOING BACK TO DUST IN THE GRAVE SPEAKING AND SEEING AND ALL THE REST?

I don't understand your question, and since the Bible DOESN'T EXPLAIN the look/substance of the souls of those who have died, I don't get my panties in a twist over it. Just accept what the Word does say.

I think you are just getting in the weeds over this.


I don't see a parable with Lazarus and the rich man. I see life after death as it existed in the OT times, before Jesus took all the saints to heaven after His resurrection.

And I'm not bothered by language that refers to body parts of the dead. I just​

1st resurrection vividly detailed in 1thes 4.
The dead rise first. Ahead if the living.

Postribbers like yourself erroneously place that at the second coming.

That means the dead in christ rise AFTER the 2 gatherings in rev 14.

But what is awesome , is that the Holy Spirit derailed and destroyed any hope of the bride tied up and bull whipped into purity, by two words.." Like manner"

 

[Absolutely]

I don't understand your question, and since the Bible DOESN'T EXPLAIN the look/substance of the souls of those who have died, I don't get my panties in a twist over it. Just accept what the Word does say.

I think you are just getting in the weeds over this.


I don't see a parable with Lazarus and the rich man. I see life after death as it existed in the OT times, before Jesus took all the saints to heaven after His resurrection.

And I'm not bothered by language that refers to body parts of the dead. I just​

1st resurrection vividly detailed in 1thes 4.
The dead rise first. Ahead if the living.

Postribbers like yourself erroneously place that at the second coming.

That means the dead in christ rise AFTER the 2 gatherings in rev 14.

But what is awesome , is that the Holy Spirit derailed and destroyed any hope of the bride tied up and bull whipped into purity, by two words.." Like manner"

5 minute rule strikes again

Was unable to finish editing.

My post was;
1thes 4.
The dead rise first. Ahead if the living.

Postribbers like yourself erroneously place that at the second coming.

That means the dead in christ rise AFTER the 2 gatherings in rev 14.

But what is awesome , is that the Holy Spirit derailed and destroyed any hope of the bride tied up and bull whipped into purity, by two words.." Like manner"

(Some glitch happened)

 

[FreeGrace2]

You helped me by remaining in the conversation so that I had to go find each and every scripture and piece it together so nothing conflicted and everything worked together exactly as written, the exact story told. No hiccups what so ever.

That is why I am responding to you now. I have tried to figure this out for at least the last 2 years. Been a long long time.

So here is what I believe

When this flesh finally dies I will pass from this 'seen' world into the 'unseen' world. From flesh/spirit/soul to spirit/body/soul.

The Bible uses "flesh" and "body" interchangeably. So I don't see any real difference here.

I have a simpler understanding. Humans are born with the material and immaterial or body and soul. At regeneration, the believer's dead human spirit is made alive; body, soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:21).

At physical death, the body goes to the grave and the soul of unbelievers goes to Hades to the place of torments, awaiting final judgment. The believer's soul/spirit goes to the presence of God in the 3rd heaven, awaiting the great resurrection and glorification of the body, that will come out of the grave. At that point, the believer is immortal, never to die again.

The unbeliever, however, will die again when their resurrected body attends the GWT judgment and is then cast into the lake of fire, which is why the lake of fire is also called the second death.

The only thing that 'dies' or quits being of use is this actual flesh. The 'me' that 'I' currently am is ALMOST the EXACT SAME ME that I will be, I just will have shed this flesh and blood and though it will stay here I, in my spiritual body will RISE up and be met by the angels who will take me to heaven where my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will meet me and He will bring me to the FATHER, the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and I shall continue on living there with all those who have gone before and who, like me, will be waiting until all the host of heaven have been born on earth.

OK.

GONE will be the desires and temptations I fought with, gone will be the sinful flesh that needed to be crucified daily, that needed to be fed that need to be entertained that needed to go to the dentist, and best of all gone will be the pain. And replacing it is a lighter brighter younger imperishable me in a completely healthy body that doesn't age, doesn't get sick that no other can hurt, my Spiritual body. No longer weighed down by the dust of the earth and the blood it took to keep it alive, NOW made out of...I haven't got A CLUE. I, like Paul, am so willing to be absent this body, this realm and my desire is to be with the Lord. Possibly always has been.

OK.

And then the moment will come in which we will all mount our horses to return to the earth and watch it be brought into the heavenly realm of existence.

I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

I will see the dead rise and I will see the alive and remaining changed and they will join with us as we go and do as instructed. I am sure while I am in heaven I will be taught what I need to know, for wherever I will be assigned, just like everyone else. We will be spending the next 1000 years saving as many of the 'dead' as possible by bringing them the words of God so that at the end of that 1000 years they may also experience the life, the resurrection to immortality and to truly then be able to feel the pure love of our Creator, our Savior our Father.

OK.

And when Satan and all evil have been taken care of, we will watch as God brings about the NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH and we will see the Holy City of Jerusalem coming down to earth so that GOD will DWELL with us and HE WILL BE OUR ONE TRUE GOD. And all of this will be no longer remembered and

I agree, there is no reason to remember our mortal lives.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes. Everything I have said comes from the bible.

Not true. The Bible does NOT SAY that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The following quote shows as being in a quote of mine, but I agree that the question is garbled and not clear at all, and I highly doubt I would have asked such a confusing question. I don't know who asked it, if anyone did.

"DO YOU SEE A 'FLESH BODY' THAT IS GOING BACK TO DUST IN THE GRAVE SPEAKING AND SEEING AND ALL THE REST?"

Abs seems to have a real problem with formatting his posts, The blue words are my quote, but it appears as what he is posting. He really needs to learn how to format and properly display the quotes of others.

I don't understand your question, and since the Bible DOESN'T EXPLAIN the look/substance of the souls of those who have died, I don't get my panties in a twist over it. Just accept what the Word does say.

I think you are just getting in the weeds over this.

I don't see a parable with Lazarus and the rich man. I see life after death as it existed in the OT times, before Jesus took all the saints to heaven after His resurrection.

At this point, I guess the rest of the post belongs to Abs. Hard to know.

And I'm not bothered by language that refers to body parts of the dead. I just​

1st resurrection vividly detailed in 1thes 4.
The dead rise first. Ahead if the living.

Postribbers like yourself erroneously place that at the second coming.

That means the dead in christ rise AFTER the 2 gatherings in rev 14.

But what is awesome , is that the Holy Spirit derailed and destroyed any hope of the bride tied up and bull whipped into purity, by two words.." Like manner"

Please fix your posting errors.

 

[FreeGrace2]

5 minute rule strikes again

Was unable to finish editing.

You need to learn HOW to display the quotes of others.

My post was;
1thes 4.
The dead rise first. Ahead if the living.

Postribbers like yourself erroneously place that at the second coming.

Of course the dead rise first, ahead of the living. That is exactly what 1 Thess 4 SAYS. And all of that IS at the second coming.

1 Cor 15:23 proves that the single resurrection of ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will occur "when He comes"

And 2 Thess 2:1 says plainly that it occurs at the Second Coming.

That means the dead in christ rise AFTER the 2 gatherings in rev 14.

Oh yeah. The very BLOODY chapter about sharp sickles. no resurrection in that chapter.

But what is awesome , is that the Holy Spirit derailed and destroyed any hope of the bride tied up and bull whipped into purity, by two words.." Like manner"

Jesus used those two words to equate "HOW PEOPLE WERE LIVING IN NOAH'S DAY COMPARED TO HOW PEOPLE WLL BE LIVING WHEN JESUS COMES BACK".

(Some glitch happened)

You'll think that some glitch happened when you finally realize that you may already be in the tribulation. Just study the first 4 seals and look around you.

 

[kleronomos]

Not said, proved:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you were right, no one need come out of their grave since they would have a new body not coming out of a grave.

LET US SEPARATE THE SAVED FROM THE UNSAVED

The unsaved don't rise with a glorified body BECAUSE they haven't received the gift of Salvation



LAST TIME LAST DAY MENTIONED. Last Day NEVER TO BE MENTIONED AGAIN IT IS OLD COVENANT. Martha gives old covenant response JESUS GIVES NEW COVENANT TRUTH



John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

BUT is that all we are told? Here is the answer to that problem

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


So lets analyze that. Many, but not ALL of the saints WERE SEEN. NONE of the evil going to judgment were seen.



You are not ALLOWING FOR THE CHANGING OF TIMES. WE are going from one Covenant to the next.

The last day of the SAVED being in the graves took place. THEY ROSE because JESUS HAD GONE TO THE CAPTIVITY , THOSE bound in death because of that one little sin under the law "BREAK ONE BREAK THEM ALL" -

they were offered the GIFT HE COULD NOW GIVE (that the law couldn't)

FORGIVENESS OF SIN and they rose in their bodies immediately THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT UNDER THE LAW.


IN COMES THE NEW COVENANT UNDER GRACE THIS separates the SAVED FROM THE UNSAVED in a big time way.

The saved NEVER DIE. THE UNSAVED now have to WAIT until Christ returns again to rise up out of the graves. THIS TIME they will be seen because HEAVEN IS COMING WITH CHRIST.

THE DEAD having SEEN CORRUPTION (remaining in the grave) DON'T RISE WITH THEIR IMMORTALITY (neither doth corruption inherit incorruption) they still face the SECOND DEATH. So even though they rose up, they are still DEAD because they are not immortal.


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

New Covenant we pass through death and rise with our glorified body. RETURN on horses to meet the alive and remaining who are changed.

THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF CHRISTIANITY. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN gods AND THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD. HE IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM ISAAC AND JACOB.

The first resurrection isn't about TIME. It is about RANK. And JESUS IS OF THE HIGHEST RANK OF ALL. He is the FIRST begotten of the dead. He may have not been RAISED first but He IS RAISED HIGHEST.


Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: HAVE YE NOT READ in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[kleronomos]

I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

And you don't see the conflict?


1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.





And if you would just be willing to follow the example Christ set for us, you would see HE ROSE IN A BODY.

 

[kleronomos]

I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

They mount horses in heaven. How does that work with

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

BUT THEY ARE ALREADY ON THE HORSES


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

And you don't see the conflict?

No I don't. Please explain.

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

No conflict. Paul is contrasting the mortal body with the immortal body.

And if you would just be willing to follow the example Christ set for us, you would see HE ROSE IN A BODY.

Of course He did. A glorified immoral body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

They mount horses in heaven. How does that work with

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

BUT THEY ARE ALREADY ON THE HORSES

First, all dead saints are NOW in heaven. Some scholars describe they are in spiritual bodies. The Bible doesn't say, but I know that John the souls under the altar in Revelation. That's good enough for me. I don't need the details. Doesn't matter.

Second, in Re 19, they GET ON horses. Why would they be on horses for 7 years, just waiting for the return to earth with Christ?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The "them" here refers to all the saints who have died and gone to heaven. They will return to earth with the King of kings at the Second Advent and receive their glorified body.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
I call this the glorification of our formerly dead bodies. Now made immortal.

No I don't. Please explain.




No conflict. Paul is contrasting the mortal body with the immortal body.


Of course He did. A glorified immoral body.

HOW YOU answer these questions will tell you where you stand.

DOES
RAISED IN GLORY = NOT RAISED IN GLORY - it does according to your version


DOES
CORRUPTION NOT INHERIT INCORRUPTION = CORRUPTION DOES INHERIT CORRUPTION - it does according to your version


DOES
"NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE" = 'THE BODY THAT SHALL BE' - it does according to your version


These aren't complex sentences. They say one thing - you say it doesn't

There really is no more I have to offer. This is a matter between you and God

 

[FreeGrace2]

HOW YOU answer these questions will tell you where you stand.

I'm pretty sure I know exactly where I stand. But I'll take a look at your questions.

DOES
RAISED IN GLORY = NOT RAISED IN GLORY - it does according to your version

Wrong. "raised in glory" ONLY applies to the saved. Obviously NOT the unsaved. Which I've been saying all along.

Blue words refer only to the saved, at their resurrection.
Red words refer only to the unsaved, at their resurrection.

DOES
CORRUPTION NOT INHERIT INCORRUPTION = CORRUPTION DOES INHERIT CORRUPTION - it does according to your version

Wrong again. Where did you get this idea from any of my posts?

Red words refer to the fact that the physical body will not inherit an imperishable body. No big shock here.

The blue words AGAIN refer to the unsaved in their resurrection.

DOES
"NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE" = 'THE BODY THAT SHALL BE' - it does according to your version

So you think I have communicated diametrically opposed ideas??? Get real.

What verse did you find the red words?

Blue words refer to the future glorified body.

These aren't complex sentences. They say one thing - you say it doesn't

There really is no more I have to offer. This is a matter between you and God

I'm not worried one bit about that. I know what the Bible says, and it is clear that you do NOT know what I think.

I've NEVER made diametrically opposed statements, as you are claiming.

If you can find the post(s) where you got your ideas from, please share.

I think it is clear that you STILL have no handle on what happens when people die, whether saved or unsaved.

 

[Oblio]

Christian Bumper Cars...lol!

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

You know what the laying of hands is? It is in the image of Gods covenant which he made with us.Your left hand is the old covenant and the right hand is the new.
First,they got convicted of their sins right? through the spirit and the water.
When they believed in Jesus,they received the Holy Spirit on the cross afterwards in the book of Acts.
The Apostles had the laying of hands because they are first fruits.You to can do this if you keep his words and covenants.A solo person can also be saved if they are convicted of their sins and ask for forgiveness.

Look at your hands.ten,for the ten commandments.Two thumbs in the image of the covenants.
Take your hands with your fingers intertwined together, and your thumbs side by side in prayer.Theres our rock with the covenants.
Now, open them,and place your fingers together and touch your palms together with your thumbs side by side in prayer.There's the Dove of peace with the covenants.
Now, hold both hands out. With your left hand form a fist with your thumb in side it.
And with your right,place your fingers together, palm facing you,with your thumb in the palm of your hand.
That is the rock and dove holding the covenants in their heart.
Do you do good works with your hands and bare good fruit?

Where's the new commandment Jesus gave us? It's in your heart, and you proclaim the kingdom of God with a tongue of fire to the dead with it.

Look at your feet. Ten for the commandments.Two big toes in the image of the covenants.Place them together.There's Noahs Ark.
Now walk on water.Walk with God.

Think about what I just told you real hard for awhile.I cried when the thought hit me,this morning,waking up. For the first time in years I cried. God wants spiritual People.Read his words.Pray on it.When you get to the point where all's you can think about is God. ask him, "who are you? please, God,I want to know you for who you really are" .
I don't mean to be judgmental.Let that fire in you burn into a inferno. Love you all.God is everywhere, and he is forever great and should be praised forever, and ever.Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

Not true. The Bible does NOT SAY that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

I never said that. I am post trib.