An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why assume Jesus looked differently after His resurrection?

Because none of these was mentioned in any of the four gospels, period. Other features like a sword from the mouth is symbolic, Paul told us the sword is the Word of God sharper than any man made two-edged sword, but at least hair white as snow or the robe and girdle should be mentioned. That angels "shining garment" was mentioned (Luke 24:4), why the glory of Jesus wasn't?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why assume Jesus looked differently after His resurrection?

Because none of these was mentioned in any of the four gospels, period. Other features like a sword from the mouth is symbolic, Paul told us the sword is the Word of God sharper than any man made two-edged sword, but at least hair white as snow or the robe and girdle should be mentioned. That angels "shining garment" was mentioned (Luke 24:4), why the glory of Jesus wasn't?

What is clear from Scripture is that when Jesus came back from the dead He HAD His glorified body. That shouldn't even be in dispute.

 

[Absolutely]

All Jews are Israelites, but NOT all Israelites are Jews. The ten northern tribes were dispersed and assimilated into all nations on earth, and even before that, none of them was a "Jew" to begin with, only a citizen of the sourthern kingdom of Judah was considered a Jew, the name 'Jew" originated from the tribe of Judah; however, those 144,000 are from ALL TWELVE tribes, no matter how this will be fulfilled in the future, they'll rise from all nations. There's "commonwealth of Israel" and "lost house of Israel", but there's no such a thing called "worldwide jewry", you made that up and you're perpatuating a myth.

,""" those 144,000 are from ALL TWELVE tribes, no matter how this will be fulfilled in the future, they'll rise from all nations. There's "commonwealth of Israel" and "lost house of Israel", but there's no such a thing called "worldwide jewry", you made that up and you're perpatuating a myth.""""

You are agreeing they are gathered worldwide, and take issue with a word used, to " prove you are both wrong"?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Literal interpretation is not always applicable. It was specifically rebuked by Jesus in multiple instances, such as "born again", "rebuild the temple" or "flesh and blood". Bible has a set of its own code language, it interprets itself, every verse has multiple layers, it never stops at one.

Um rebuild the temple is literal.

One having to be born again is literal. ( a spiritual birth passing from death to life)

Flesh and blood is not prophetic. He used a symbol to represent a spiritual truth (as Jesus was going to shed his blood and lay down his flesh)

Parables also have prophetic significance. Jesus made parables about harvest, (grapes in) vineyard, fig tree and wedding, and all of these appeared in John's vision in Revelation. You think that's a coincidence? I think not.

Prophecy has one purpose. Its purpose is to tell of an event, or person or kingdom which would occure in the future, Its purpose is so people can look at these events or people and say Yes, God predicted that event thousands of years in advance and they happened as he said they did.

God warned of false prophets. He said if they prophecy and that thing does not happen. they are false prophets.
He also said multiple times. I tell you these things so you (speaking to the people who witness those events) Know That I am the lord your God.

When you symbolize prophecy, The purpose of prophecy is destroyed.

A parable is not prophecy, Prophecy is not a parable. they are two different types of language used for two different purposes.

Didn't Jesus specifically warn about the "Synagogue of Satan" in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9? And only in two good churches among the seven? They would claim they are Jews, but they're not. Before 70AD there was family tree records, everyone could trace their lineage, but after that it was all gone. God let that happen on purpose. Without that record, they didn't have their own king any more, nobody can boast that they were from David or Moses or any other historical figures. There;s only one king that's Yeshua, and God will eventually bring all of them back to their real King.

lol. I am not worried about people who claim they are jews and are not. I am worried about what God said would happen.

ps. they have somehow through DNA evidence proved that many of these people can trace their ancestry back to the 12 tribes of Israel. They have also used this to determine who is actually of the lineage of Levi, so they can determine who are the priests..

Again, You want to claim you know without a fact these people are not jews.. Sorry bro,. I cant agree with you. No one should

are they enemies of God now? yes. But that is not new, Even paul said they are enemies concerning the gospel. But beloved concerning the promises (rom 11)

Lets let God sort out who is true isreal in linage and who is not. Us fighting and being divided on something neither of us can prove is just a bad look.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Um rebuild the temple is literal.

One having to be born again is literal. ( a spiritual birth passing from death to life)

Flesh and blood is not prophetic. He used a symbol to represent a spiritual truth (as Jesus was going to shed his blood and lay down his flesh)

Yeah, all three are SPIRITUAL truth, because Jesus redefined those terms. Literal understanding was specifically rebuked in these instances. There's no third temple being rebuilt on the temple mount in modern day Israel, Jesus rebuilt the temple of HIS BODY (John 2:21). Since Jesus gave spiritual interpretation, why not just accept it?

Prophecy has one purpose. Its purpose is to tell of an event, or person or kingdom which would occure in the future, Its purpose is so people can look at these events or people and say Yes, God predicted that event thousands of years in advance and they happened as he said they did.

God warned of false prophets. He said if they prophecy and that thing does not happen. they are false prophets.
He also said multiple times. I tell you these things so you (speaking to the people who witness those events) Know That I am the lord your God.

When you symbolize prophecy, The purpose of prophecy is destroyed.

A parable is not prophecy, Prophecy is not a parable. they are two different types of language used for two different purposes.

I've never "symbolize" prophecy, all bible prophecies are full of symbolism, the correct exegetical approach is to let the bible interpret itself, using the concordance to find the same key word in different passages, and use clear and easy passages to interpret unclear and difficult passages. Most of Jesus's parables are foretelling the Kingdom of God and His glorious return, if those are not "kingdom" or "person" or "event" at set time in the future, I don't know what is.

lol. I am not worried about people who claim they are jews and are not. I am worried about what God said would happen.

ps. they have somehow through DNA evidence proved that many of these people can trace their ancestry back to the 12 tribes of Israel. They have also used this to determine who is actually of the lineage of Levi, so they can determine who are the priests..

Again, You want to claim you know without a fact these people are not jews.. Sorry bro,. I cant agree with you. No one should

are they enemies of God now? yes. But that is not new, Even paul said they are enemies concerning the gospel. But beloved concerning the promises (rom 11)

Lets let God sort out who is true isreal in linage and who is not. Us fighting and being divided on something neither of us can prove is just a bad look.

I know WITH a fact because Jesus warned about them in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9, and many of them do exist as notorious leftists who are embracing socialism, protesting against modern day Israel and audaciously claiming to be Jews. There's the Scripture, and there's testimony of the Scripture. God said there were such fakers, and such fakers jump out and make a loud noise.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why assume Jesus looked differently after His resurrection?

What is clear from Scripture is that when Jesus came back from the dead He HAD His glorified body. That shouldn't even be in dispute.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why assume Jesus looked differently after His resurrection?

What is clear from Scripture is that when Jesus came back from the dead He HAD His glorified body. That shouldn't even be in dispute.

Was His glorified body supposed to be bearing the scars on the wrists, feet and side? And eating breakfast with Peter? These are reasonable doubts. But if it is in your conviction that it was definitely His glorified body, then so be it. No objection from me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Was His glorified body supposed to be bearing the scars on the wrists, feet and side?

Obviously it WAS. How did Jesus enter that locked room? That should answer your question.

And eating breakfast with Peter? These are reasonable doubts.

For you, maybe, but not for me. I have problem or issues at all about the resurrected Jesus eating food. It is obvious that the resurrection body CAN consume food. We have NO OTHER DETAILS. Just accept what has been written.

But if it is in your conviction that it was definitely His glorified body, then so be it. No objection from me.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yeah, all three are SPIRITUAL truth, because Jesus redefined those terms. Literal understanding was specifically rebuked in these instances. There's no third temple being rebuilt on the temple mount in modern day Israel, Jesus rebuilt the temple of HIS BODY (John 2:21). Since Jesus gave spiritual interpretation, why not just accept it?

Your wrong. Plain out wrong. OT prophecy shows that a new temple will be built. In fact. Jesus himself when he comes, will rule out of that temple

We must be born again. We who were dead in tresspasses and sins have been made alive (born again)

These are literal events which take place.

I've never "symbolize" prophecy, all bible prophecies are full of symbolism, the correct exegetical approach is to let the bible interpret itself, using the concordance to find the same key word in different passages, and use clear and easy passages to interpret unclear and difficult passages. Most of Jesus's parables are foretelling the Kingdom of God and His glorious return, if those are not "kingdom" or "person" or "event" at set time in the future, I don't know what is.



I know WITH a fact because Jesus warned about them in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9, and many of them do exist as notorious leftists who are embracing socialism, protesting against modern day Israel and audaciously claiming to be Jews. There's the Scripture, and there's testimony of the Scripture. God said there were such fakers, and such fakers jump out and make a loud noise.

there will be come a time in the future where we will see what Happens.

I would not want to be on your side..

 

[Absolutely]

All one has to do is read Revelation 7 and 14 in their plain literal sense to see that you are the one creating your own myth.

Not sure what your agenda is but God has already made is plain and clear that 144,000 redeemed ISRAELITES -- 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes -- will be redeemed from the earth and taken to Heaven to be in the presence of the throne of God. If you think this is a myth then you are calling God a liar. No one knows exactly how this prophecy will be fulfilled, but that does not give you the right to call it a "myth" (unless you hate the idea of Jews actually being saved by the grace of God).

I believe that this group of 144,000 is simply a microcosm (and prefiguring) of redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. Paul says in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel shall be saved". Since we know that only a believing remnant of Israel shall be saved, the "all Israel" refers to all twelve tribes (as noted in the Abrahamic Covenant) and seen in Ezekiel 48.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion [Jerusalem] the Deliverer [the Lord Jesus Christ] , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [Israel or the Jews]: (Rom 11:26)
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. (Ps 53:6)

There are many people who hold to Replacement Theology -- that the Church has replaced Israel. But in the eyes of God that is not true. God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church, and also for redeemed and restored Israel (not the present secular nation-state of Israel but worldwide Jewry).

Yes.you are correct.
But it goes very deep.
Rom 11
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

NOTICE that we alone make the allowance for Gods purposes in that :
The times of the gentiles fufilled at the pretrib rapture
The gt is JACOBS/ISRAELS trouble and is their trial to bring them BACK into the kingdom.
They are the wayward wife gone awhoring.

Postribs are ignorant of all of that.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your wrong. Plain out wrong. OT prophecy shows that a new temple will be built. In fact. Jesus himself when he comes, will rule out of that temple

That temple is in HEAVEN, so such temple will be built on earth. Rev. 4:1 says John was coming up to HEAVEN, in 11:1 he was given a reed to measure the temple. That's the same temple Ezekiel saw.

We must be born again. We who were dead in tresspasses and sins have been made alive (born again)

These are literal events which take place.

Literal "born again" only has one meaning, which is exactly what Nicodemus was thinking - go back to mother's womb and be squeezed out again. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is spiritual rebirth, for "what is born of the Spirit is Spirit", Jesus specifically separated that from physical birth.

there will be come a time in the future where we will see what Happens.

I would not want to be on your side..

No need to wait for the future, birth pangs are already getting intense. Wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, all of them are taking place if you are paying attention on right sources of news, and those are just "beginning of sorrows." (Matt 24:7)

 

[kleronomos]

nope. The second death refers to the fact that the unsaved will be resurrected in their old mortal body to attend the GWT judgment. After which, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

I would appreciate an 'I disagree' or at least a 'nope, I disagree' because you really can't be sure I am wrong. We could both be right. We could both be wrong.
With that, I disagree with 'resurrected in their old mortal body'. I don't believe that ever happens (except for the miracles Christ performed showing His power to raise the dead and those who through Him did).

I believe that once we have left this body, it is no more than a carcass, corpse, worm food and never to be touched again.


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?



HERE IS WHERE I MAKE MY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


MANY, but not all rise up from the grave.

Those who don't rise up will like you said, rise up for the GWTH. I TOTALLY AGREE THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE RESERVED FOR THE END AND ONLY LOOK FORWARD TO BEING DELIVERED UP TO DESTRUCTION IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

BUT WHAT OF THE MANY WHO DO RISE UP AT THAT TIME? What do we know of them?


YOUR CONTENTION is the 'DEAD WHO RISE' are the BODIES of the souls returning with Christ.

MY CONTENTION is 'THEY ARE THOSE WHO DIED NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION, the SPIRITUALLY DEAD'.

For your contention TO BE THE CORRECT ONE, NOT ONE BODY THAT RISES UP COULD GO ON TO THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR THEY ARE as you CONTEND 'RISING AS GLORIFIED BODIES'.

For my contention to be correct they COULD NOT have received their immortality, could not have gone to heaven, could not be returning

'awaken from the dust of the earth' - obviously had not risen up to 'go to be where He is' SO 'NOT THE SOULS' who ARE returning with Him AS they are a mixed group

and some of them will go on to immortality
and some of them will go into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


THE 'NATIONS' are made up of those who died not having received the Gift of Salvation. They are
THE DEAD/UNSAVED/HEATHEN and have remained UNRAISED/BOUND TO THE GRAVE

UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS. (ALL HAVE GONE THROUGH THEIR 'FIRST DEATH', THE DEATH OF THE FLESH)

Not one of them are raised IMMORTAL, though all are raised IN A HEAVENLY BODY yet 'MORTAL' as in LIABLE TO DIE, but still to be tested, still may end up in the lake of fire to experience a 2nd death and will be called 'dead' for the next 1000 years.
These died not in faith but WITH 'EXCUSES' ACCEPTABLE TO GOD allowing 'the dead' to be raised when Christ returns.


Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

THIS VERSE covers two different peoples and is true for both groups, the many that rise from the dust and the many that remain in the dust till the end.

Now with all that information, read as I read
BUT THE REST OF THE 'SUBJECT TO THE 2ND DEATH (mortal), CAN NOT RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY FOR THE 1000 YEARS.

Again, THEY ARE NOT OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION BUT HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO BECOME IMMORTAL AT THE END OF THE LORDS DAY.



3498. nekros
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."

 

[kleronomos]

Um rebuild the temple is literal.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There will be a tabernacle planted before the end of this age, but it won't be by or of Gods hand.

The next temple to be seen that is of GOD is the Millennial Temple.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There will be a tabernacle planted before the end of this age, but it won't be by or of Gods hand.

The next temple to be seen that is of GOD is the Millennial Temple.

there also has to be a temple, in order for the AOD spoken of in Dan 9 and by Jesus in Matt 24 to occure

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
nope. The second death refers to the fact that the unsaved will be resurrected in their old mortal body to attend the GWT judgment. After which, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

I would appreciate an 'I disagree' or at least a 'nope, I disagree' because you really can't be sure I am wrong. We could both be right. We could both be wrong.

Sorry, didn't mean to be dismissive. However, I have given verses that do say what I believe, and clearly. So how could I be wrong with verses that line up with my views?

I keep asking others to prove me wrong, if I am. If it can be shown that any verse that I've shared means something other than what I claim, I would appreciate it.

My confidence is in the verses I share.

With that, I disagree with 'resurrected in their old mortal body'. I don't believe that ever happens (except for the miracles Christ performed showing His power to raise the dead and those who through Him did).

I wonder what else the unsaved will be resurrected with then. The Bible is very clear that the unsaved will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Black and white. Just as believers will be resurrected, so will the unbelievers. The big difference is that believers will have a glorified body that is imperishable (1 Pet 1:23) while the unbelievers will NOT have a glorified body. But a body they will have. The Bible says so.

I believe that once we have left this body, it is no more than a carcass, corpse, worm food and never to be touched again.

So you don't believe that God will glorify our physical bodies in our resurrection? He just creates a whole new one? Do you have any Scriptural evidence for that?

The only way I can explain the description of "second death" for the lake of fire is for the mortal physical body DIES once again.

It can't refer to a second spiritual death, since all humans are born that way, and there is no way a spiritually dead person can die again spiritually. Makes no sense.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

These verses speak of physical death.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

? What point are you making here?

HERE IS WHERE I MAKE MY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


MANY, but not all rise up from the grave.

So it seems you believe that there will be some who are never resurrected at all??? I don't see how that makes sense.

Rather, consider that Dan 12:2 is acknowledging that there will be some who NEVER die physically; those who "are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord". 1 Thess 4. They will be "caught up together with the dead saints" and be "changed in the twinkling of an eye" per 1 Cor 15:52-54.

Those who don't rise up will like you said, rise up for the GWTH.

Oh, I believe all unbelievers will rise up (resurrect) for the GWTJ. But they won't have glorified bodies. Acts 24:15, John 5:28,29

I TOTALLY AGREE THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE RESERVED FOR THE END AND ONLY LOOK FORWARD TO BEING DELIVERED UP TO DESTRUCTION IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Since the Bible says the unbelievers will be resurrected, I believe they will physically die again, which is supported by the words "second death" that John used to describe the lake of fire.

BUT WHAT OF THE MANY WHO DO RISE UP AT THAT TIME? What do we know of them?

YOUR CONTENTION is the 'DEAD WHO RISE' are the BODIES of the souls returning with Christ.

No, my contention is that all believers and unbelievers will rise. Believers with a glorified body and unbelievers with their mortal bodies.

MY CONTENTION is 'THEY ARE THOSE WHO DIED NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION, the SPIRITUALLY DEAD'.

It is easy to lose context. Could you specify a verse here?

For your contention TO BE THE CORRECT ONE, NOT ONE BODY THAT RISES UP COULD GO ON TO THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR THEY ARE as you CONTEND 'RISING AS GLORIFIED BODIES'.

No, that's not what I've been saying. I have been saying there will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 says exactly that.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Addressed above.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the first resurrection; that being all the saved.

THE 'NATIONS' are made up of those who died not having received the Gift of Salvation. They are
THE DEAD/UNSAVED/HEATHEN and have remained UNRAISED/BOUND TO THE GRAVE

UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS. (ALL HAVE GONE THROUGH THEIR 'FIRST DEATH', THE DEATH OF THE FLESH)

No, the unsaved will not be resurrected when Chris returns. Only the saved will be. 1 Cor 15:23

Not one of them are raised IMMORTAL, though all are raised IN A HEAVENLY BODY yet 'MORTAL' as in LIABLE TO DIE, but still to be tested, still may end up in the lake of fire to experience a 2nd death and will be called 'dead' for the next 1000 years.

This is confusing. Do you believe that believers will be "raised in a heavenly body" but are still "mortal" and can die? I don't believe that.

I believe that at the resurrection of the saved, all will receive imperishable glorified bodies. 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15, 1 Pet 1:23

These died not in faith but WITH 'EXCUSES' ACCEPTABLE TO GOD allowing 'the dead' to be raised when Christ returns.

I'm really confused about this "excuses acceptable to God". What does that refer to? And where is that found in the Bible?

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The "rest of the dead" refers to unbelievers, who won't be resurrected UNTIL the 1,000 years are finished. And that's when the GWT will occur.

THIS VERSE covers two different peoples and is true for both groups, the many that rise from the dust and the many that remain in the dust till the end.

Now with all that information, read as I read
BUT THE REST OF THE 'SUBJECT TO THE 2ND DEATH (mortal), CAN NOT RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY FOR THE 1000 YEARS.

Again, THEY ARE NOT OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION BUT HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO BECOME IMMORTAL AT THE END OF THE LORDS DAY. [/QUOTE]
No, I do not believe this. Those who die without salvation will NEVER have the opportunity to be saved.

 

[kleronomos]

there also has to be a temple, in order for the AOD spoken of in Dan 9 and by Jesus in Matt 24 to occure

I don't believe 'temple' but place. Daniel tells of the Sanctuary and the city destroyed. And according to the verses given there is no temple But if you have more....


Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

6944. qodesh ►
Strong's Concordance
qodesh: apartness, sacredness
Original Word: קֹדֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qodesh
Phonetic Spelling: (ko'-desh)
Definition: apartness, sacredness
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
apartness, sacredness
NASB Translation
consecrated (2), consecrated thing (1), consecrated things (2), dedicated (1), dedicated gifts (2), dedicated things (5), holiness (9), Holy (6), holy (263), holies (6), holy ones (1), holy portion (3), holy thing (2), holy things (12), most holy (25), most holy place (6), most holy things (6), sacred (2), sacred gifts (2), sacred things (3), sacrifices (1), sacrificial (1), sanctuary (65), set apart (1), thing most holy (2), things that are most holy (1), things dedicated (1).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
consecrated thing, dedicated thing, hallowed thing, holiness, most holy day, portion, thing, saint,
From qadash; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity -- consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

see HEBREW qadash



Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Matt 24
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation having been spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in [the] place holy the [one] reading let him understand

 

[kleronomos]

So you don't believe that God will glorify our physical bodies in our resurrection? He just creates a whole new one? Do you have any Scriptural evidence for that?

The only way I can explain the description of "second death" for the lake of fire is for the mortal physical body DIES once again.

It can't refer to a second spiritual death, since all humans are born that way, and there is no way a spiritually dead person can die again spiritually. Makes no sense.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First death CHANGE OF SCENE
Second death CHANGE OF EXISTENCE


Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

How could the day we DIE be better than the day we are BORN? Because we LEAVE GOD to come here and we LEAVE HERE TO GO BACK TO GOD.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



I THINK I FOUND THE QUESTION THAT WILL HELP.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

MORNING STARS AND SONS OF GOD SINGING AND SHOUTING FOR JOY
WATCHING THE EARTH BEING CREATED.
What are they 'made of'?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Wow. After many tries, only the unvarnished truth will do, my ignorance of the words and works of God are sometimes set forth so clearly it feels like a punch in the nose. I praise the Lord and I thank you for sharing.

I said nothing very surprising, brother. I know Hindus and mystics who could have said the precise same thing. Truth is never measured by accuracy - it is measured by intent and the confirming hand of the Father through Christ.

I began writing a book on the subject of Salvation nearly 40 years ago. My motive was to understand how it was that what I had received when I was converted out of the occult - was found in the churches - and yet so was the occult.

It isn't surprising to find born again believers in the churches - what was surprising was to find occult predications and demonic agency working in the very flesh of many believers. In the end after a few months I put the book down after writing the first chapter. It took me many years to pick it up again because the Lord began to show me just how appalling things had become in the churches and how flawed our walks often are. In that meaning trying to understand even a simple fact of Samuel and what manner of encounter King Saul had with him is a vanity.

There are a whole weft of threads that inform the many problems believers have in settling their walks so that they are found in obedience - not least to know our own calling and to come to our own obedience in the day we live in. Yet the Father has given us just one remedy to our walk - the Cross. And one power - even the Holy Spirit. And one deliverance - the grave and newness of life in Christ raised from the dead. Can you find even a mention of the Cross in this thread? The Lord gave us just one narrow path - we would all be better returning to it before we are overtaken by this day.

God Bless

 

[Absolutely]

That temple is in HEAVEN, so such temple will be built on earth. Rev. 4:1 says John was coming up to HEAVEN, in 11:1 he was given a reed to measure the temple. That's the same temple Ezekiel saw.



Literal "born again" only has one meaning, which is exactly what Nicodemus was thinking - go back to mother's womb and be squeezed out again. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is spiritual rebirth, for "what is born of the Spirit is Spirit", Jesus specifically separated that from physical birth.



No need to wait for the future, birth pangs are already getting intense. Wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, all of them are taking place if you are paying attention on right sources of news, and those are just "beginning of sorrows." (Matt 24:7)

Literal "born again" only has one meaning, which is exactly what Nicodemus was thinking - go back to mother's womb and be squeezed out again. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is spiritual rebirth, for "what is born of the Spirit is Spirit", Jesus specifically separated that from physical birth

No
"Born again" is salvation

"Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is via laying on of hands to an already saved individual.
Confirmed several times in acts.
Nobody is ever saved via laying on of hands.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No
"Born again" is salvation

"Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is via laying on of hands to an already saved individual.
Confirmed several times in acts.
Nobody is ever saved via laying on of hands.

Matthew 3:11
John 3:5

Spirit comes from above, no laying of hands. Nice try.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So you don't believe that God will glorify our physical bodies in our resurrection? He just creates a whole new one? Do you have any Scriptural evidence for that?

The only way I can explain the description of "second death" for the lake of fire is for the mortal physical body DIES once again.

It can't refer to a second spiritual death, since all humans are born that way, and there is no way a spiritually dead person can die again spiritually. Makes no sense.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So, instead of trying to address anything I posted, you just forge ahead and talk over me.

Matt 10:28 doesn't SAY that God WILL destroy the soul. It says He is ABLE TO. There is a clear difference.

First death CHANGE OF SCENE
Second death CHANGE OF EXISTENCE

The Bible says clearly that unbelievers will be resurrected for judgment (GWT). They clearly won't have glorified bodies, so it should be clear that their physical bodies will be resurrected for that reason. The "second death" simply refers to the fact that when they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) their resurrected physical body WILL DIE AGAIN. But that doesn't involve their soul.

Just like the beast and FP (both humans) who will be cast "alive into the fiery lake" Rev 19, all unbelievers will physically die again when cast into the lake of fire.