An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[FreeGrace2]

Lafftur said:
@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.

Do you think there were 144,000 babies killed and 12,000 from each tribe? The city wasn't that big was it? I am totally guessing here and just hoping you have the information yourself. If not no problem I will go look it up.

I've read from scholars that there were only a few hundred babies at most that were killed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you look at it along those lines,

Neither was Eve

Not sure what your getting at here

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 3:11
John 3:5

Spirit comes from above, no laying of hands. Nice try.

I bring the bible to the table.
Then watch you refute it over and over.
Acts 8:17
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[Absolutely]

@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.

Woah
That is not bible at all.
I am surprised you bit on that.

 

[Absolutely]

I could have just as easily recommended Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon and her Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ original French edition published in 1685 and would have made the same point.

As I see that another spirit has come into the theatre of meaning to award your refusal I will take another position once again.

She was an awesome woman of God.
Like you said, deep.

It amazes me the one that showcases the insight from all the bad happening,rejects the insight from saints the suffered.

" i cant do it, i wont do it"
SMH

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I bring the bible to the table.
Then watch you refute it over and over.
Acts 8:17
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I bring the bible to the table as well. Regardless of how the Holy Spirit came down later, at the beginning it came down from heaven. None of the apostles had the authority to command the Holy Spirit, they didn't pass Holy Spirit from themselves to anybody else, the third aspect of the godhead comes and goes by its own. Laying of hand was merely a ritual. If you believe in that, go lay your hand on somebody and see if they begin to prophesy in different languages, pffft.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Acts 2:2-4 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

 

[Absolutely]

Lafftur said:
@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.

I've read from scholars that there were only a few hundred babies at most that were killed.

I AGREE!!!!

 

[Absolutely]

I bring the bible to the table as well. Regardless of how the Holy Spirit came down later, at the beginning it came down from heaven. None of the apostles had the authority to command the Holy Spirit, they didn't pass Holy Spirit from themselves to anybody else, the third aspect of the godhead comes and goes by its own. Laying of hand was merely a ritual. If you believe in that, go lay your hand on somebody and see if they begin to prophesy in different languages, pffft.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Acts 2:2-4 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

REPLY
REPORT
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Absolutely
Well-known member
14 minutes ago
#904
Lafftur said:
@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Woah
That is not bible at all.
I am surprised you bit on that.

REPLY
REPORT
[IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/m/272/272916.jpg?1603653041[/IMG]
Absolutely
Well-known member
10 minutes ago
#905
Rhomphaeam said:
I could have just as easily recommended Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon and her Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ original French edition published in 1685 and would have made the same point.

As I see that another spirit has come into the theatre of meaning to award your refusal I will take another position once again.
Click to expand...
She was an awesome woman of God.
Like you said, deep.

It amazes me the one that showcases the insight from all the bad happening,rejects the insight from saints the suffered.

" i cant do it, i wont do it"
SMH

REPLY
REPORT •••
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Carry_Your_Name
Active member
8 minutes ago
New #906

1. Absolutely said:
   I bring the bible to the table.
   Then watch you refute it over and over.
   Acts 8:17
   Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
   Acts 8:18
   And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
   Acts 9:17
   And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
   Acts 19:6
   And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
   Click to expand...
   I bring the bible to the table as well. Regardless of how the Holy Spirit came down later, at the beginning it came down from heaven. None of the apostles had the authority to command the Holy Spirit, they didn't pass Holy Spirit from themselves to anybody else, the third aspect of the godhead comes and goes by its own. Laying of hand was merely a ritual. If you believe in that, go lay your hand on somebody and see if they begin to prophesy in different languages, pffft.​

 

[Absolutely]

8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

REPLY
REPORT
[IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/m/272/272916.jpg?1603653041[/IMG]
Absolutely
Well-known member
14 minutes ago
#904
Lafftur said:
@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Woah
That is not bible at all.
I am surprised you bit on that.

REPLY
REPORT
[IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/m/272/272916.jpg?1603653041[/IMG]
Absolutely
Well-known member
10 minutes ago
#905
Rhomphaeam said:
I could have just as easily recommended Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon and her Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ original French edition published in 1685 and would have made the same point.

As I see that another spirit has come into the theatre of meaning to award your refusal I will take another position once again.
Click to expand...
She was an awesome woman of God.
Like you said, deep.

It amazes me the one that showcases the insight from all the bad happening,rejects the insight from saints the suffered.

" i cant do it, i wont do it"
SMH

REPLY
REPORT •••
[IMG]https://christianchat.com/data/avatars/m/314/314262.jpg?1646285077[/IMG]
Carry_Your_Name
Active member
8 minutes ago
New #906

1. Absolutely said:
   I bring the bible to the table.
   Then watch you refute it over and over.
   Acts 8:17
   Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
   Acts 8:18
   And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
   Acts 9:17
   And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
   Acts 19:6
   And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
   Click to expand...
   I bring the bible to the table as well. Regardless of how the Holy Spirit came down later, at the beginning it came down from heaven. None of the apostles had the authority to command the Holy Spirit, they didn't pass Holy Spirit from themselves to anybody else, the third aspect of the godhead comes and goes by its own. Laying of hand was merely a ritual. If you believe in that, go lay your hand on somebody and see if they begin to prophesy in different languages, pffft.​

I TRIED TO FIX THE POST....NOT SUCCESSFUL
5 MINUTE RULE IS RIDICULOUS

 

[Absolutely]

I bring the bible to the table as well. Regardless of how the Holy Spirit came down later, at the beginning it came down from heaven. None of the apostles had the authority to command the Holy Spirit, they didn't pass Holy Spirit from themselves to anybody else, the third aspect of the godhead comes and goes by its own. Laying of hand was merely a ritual. If you believe in that, go lay your hand on somebody and see if they begin to prophesy in different languages, pffft.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Acts 2:2-4 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Again:
I bring the bible to the table.
Then watch you refute it over and over.
Acts 8:17
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They were already saved and THEN recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit later.

But if you need the bible modified then go ahead

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Again:
I bring the bible to the table.
Then watch you refute it over and over.
Acts 8:17
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost
Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They were already saved and THEN recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit later.

But if you need the bible modified then go ahead

Nowhere in the bible says they were already saved until they received the Holy Spirit. Again:

Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Nobody baptized by John the Baptist was saved until they received the Holy Spirit. And when they did on Pentecost, that was the hand of God, not hand of any man. The word of God is not gonna be bent by your heresy.

 

[Absolutely]

Nowhere in the bible says they were already saved until they received the Holy Spirit. Again:

Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Nobody baptized by John the Baptist was saved until they received the Holy Spirit. And when they did on Pentecost, that was the hand of God, not hand of any man. The word of God is not gonna be bent by your heresy.

so you are refuting those verses that say they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit via laying on of hands???
What are you trying to say?
That they were unsaved, and paul laid hands in them to become saved????

 

[Absolutely]

Nowhere in the bible says they were already saved until they received the Holy Spirit. Again:

Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Nobody baptized by John the Baptist was saved until they received the Holy Spirit. And when they did on Pentecost, that was the hand of God, not hand of any man. The word of God is not gonna be bent by your heresy.

Refute this one.
Twist it real good now, ya hear;
Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You are in a bad place when you make it your job to pervert Gods word

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

so you are refuting those verses that say they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit via laying on of hands???
What are you trying to say?
That they were unsaved, and paul laid hands in them to become saved????

So you quoted Acts: 8:17-18, and conveniently left out the next two verses? Let's take a look:

Acts: 8:19-20, And (Simon the sorcerer) said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

As I said, Holy Spirit is dispensed by God from heaven, not given via laying of hand.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Refute this one.
Twist it real good now, ya hear;
Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You are in a bad place when you make it your job to pervert Gods word

You're as sinful as Simon the Sorcerer in that passage you quote.

 

[kleronomos]

Herod had male babies killed from birth to 2 years old in Bethlehem and surrounding cities….there could have easily been 144,000.

They would have been firstfruits, virgins that never knew women…

Alright here is my thinking on it and why that would be IN MY opinion a long shot,

if you factor in the 10 northern tribes being scattered a few hundred years before and GOD SAYING

Leviticus 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.


Leviticus 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

along with

Leviticus 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.


SO for enough of them to go to Jerusalem and the surrounding areas would not really be 'scattered among the heathen' in their lands.


And Cyrus only giving the decree to go back and build the temple, lets see,

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

MINUS APPROX 30 YEARS that doesn't really leave enough time for 12,000 babies from each tribe. AGAIN, only my opinion based on what is written.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the thought of it being those little babies.

You know that means there were no other men the same age or two years older than Jesus his whole life. Or very few. I think I am hoping the number of babies killed was WAY LESS than 144,000.

 

[kleronomos]

I could have just as easily recommended Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon and her Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ original French edition published in 1685 and would have made the same point.

As I see that another spirit has come into the theatre of meaning to award your refusal I will take another position once again.

Please understand, this is definitely not a new 'spirit' by any stretch. My refusal began in the beginning when one of the first things 'man' taught me turned out to be false along with all that followed. The 'de programing' to start over from the very beginning (THANK GOD I didn't know much) was still very difficult.

From that point on it was precept on precept....beginning to end. From His words to my ears. I don't believe there has been a time since that I have not personally looked up everything some one else has shared with me when it comes to His words. Please accept this apology if I have offended and let's move forward...

 

[Absolutely]

So you quoted Acts: 8:17-18, and conveniently left out the next two verses? Let's take a look:

Acts: 8:19-20, And (Simon the sorcerer) said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

As I said, Holy Spirit is dispensed by God from heaven, not given via laying of hand.

Lol.
The error was rebuked.
...Not the recieving of The Holy Spirit.
Reread it


Really????
You actually can not discern that???

What you are doing is reforming and changing the word of God.
You actually would do that???

You actually think that a sorcerer sets God's Word in Question?
That the recieving of the Holy Spirit, ordained by God, via laying on of Hands, is dependant, or voided on the actions of the devil?

Or voided by your whimsical extra biblical false doctrine beliefs?

 

[Absolutely]

Please understand, this is definitely not a new 'spirit' by any stretch. My refusal began in the beginning when one of the first things 'man' taught me turned out to be false along with all that followed. The 'de programing' to start over from the very beginning (THANK GOD I didn't know much) was still very difficult.

From that point on it was precept on precept....beginning to end. From His words to my ears. I don't believe there has been a time since that I have not personally looked up everything some one else has shared with me when it comes to His words. Please accept this apology if I have offended and let's move forward...

I doubt anyone is offended, or has the notion that every saint that writes a book is damaging to ones walk.

Foxes book of martyrs ,for example, adds a component you need.
It will make your suffering look like a cake walk.
Pilgrims progress adds definition to your walk.
The authority of the believer, that most here do not walk in, is missing as direct result of not bothering to read books on that subject.

It is called discernment....not fear of every saints book.

You are practically guaranteed error ,if you do not submit to the corporate revelation of the saints.

Books are critical...The right ones.

I have lots of books by madame guyon. They add to my walk.
As does watchman nee, oswald chambers, chuck pierce, and others.

 

[Absolutely]

You're as sinful as Simon the Sorcerer in that passage you quote.

like i say
I bring the bible.
You somehow find your way to pervert it.
Unreal actually.

You actually believe that , or are you just having problems with who posted it?